[Gerry Sweetland]

need to get thru a 39 inch wide door to first floor, anyone have the dimensions of the machine out of the shipping crates?
Thanks for any and all information you guys have shared with me..

jon

I think you can still download PDF drawings from Tormach's web site showing over all size.
And why are you asking about the size of the machine in a post about "is the tormach conversational?"?
Gerry

[ger21]

OK, now you've done it! You've piqued our curiosity.

I've gotten great use from the current NFWs and I would image a new version would only enhance that.. tell us more, please!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GK4rbD6C17o]M4WizardIntro - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D70-ViinAjY]WizV4part2 - YouTube[/ame]

[SquibLoad]

Gerry, thanks so much for that preview! It looks wonderful and very useful.

I'm convinced, it looks like a substantial improvement from the current version. Quite useful for building quick ad hoc one-time programs, and even more substantial production routines.

So, how may I purchase this, and when?

Thanks!

[UniqueMachining]

Gerry
Looks like a vast improvement and appears to mirror some of the Kipware routines.

If I may suggest one change, to increase the tool table to 256 tools. This will match Mach's current ability. I suspect that others like myself are using numbers beyond 128. In this way we can match tool numbers to our existing tool table.

Having to cross reference two different tool number sequences is bound to be confusing at the least.

You indicate that its arrival will coincide with Mach4. Hopefully it will be fully compatible with Mach3.

Looking forward.

John

[ruawake]

because i also need exact dimensions to see if it can get thru our font door

[SquibLoad]

Gerry
Looks like a vast improvement and appears to mirror some of the Kipware routines.

If I may suggest one change, to increase the tool table to 256 tools. This will match Mach's current ability. I suspect that others like myself are using numbers beyond 128. In this way we can match tool numbers to our existing tool table.

Good suggestion, and if I may add another...

Are you planning any way for it to be user-extensible? The ability for the user community to write additions and add-ons would be invaluable. I could see a library of interesting routines being developed and shared. That would really help the Mach community. It could be as valuable and useful as Fanuc style macros are for other controllers.

[RTP_Burnsville]

If you are looking for an easy way to program check out the Vectric V-Carve Pro software package (~$500). It's very easy to get started and can do some very nice things. Their C-2d package is around $100 and you can apply most of that to V-Carve if you want to upgrade. Both programs use the same interface.

This is the defacto program for most wood router people.

Robert

[rowbare]

because i also need exact dimensions to see if it can get thru our font door

Here is a link to the Tormach document that describes moving the PCNC 1100 through various size doors: PCNC 1100 Moving Dimensions

BTW. In the previous reply, he didn't ask why you asked the question, he asked why you asked it in an unrelated thread. That is considered bad forum etiquette/thread hijacking. It is usually better to start a new thread to ask your question.

Anyway I hope the linked document answers your questions! I am sure you will enjoy a Tormach if and when you buy one.

bob

[johnsattuk]

[QUOTE=UniqueMachining;1240953]Gerry
Hopefully it will be fully compatible with Mach3.

Hopefully it will be Standalone

[kevinro]

Did you watch the video available from the webpage?
KipwareM Conversational CNC Programming Software For Milling - YouTube

I spent about four hours evaluating this software last night. I was able to find information about the program by groping around on youtube. Didn't see links to any of this information on the website(s) for the company.

What I am looking for:

I want a program that I can stand at my machines console and do some quick program creation without having to setup a CAD/CAM. I want the ability to create a series of operations using my machines controller for holes, slots, linear hole patterns. I want a program that has an obvious workflow so the high school students I work with in my shop can use it successfully.

What I am looking at:


The following notes are for KipwareM which is a conversational CNC programming environment by Kentechinc.com

The idea behind this set of programs is to allow the operator of a CNC machine to create G-Code programs without needing to use a CAD/CAM package. This software uses the notion of a 'job' to

create a file that has a series of operations. The entire Job is then compiled into a G-CODE program that can be interpreted by a CNC machine.

Vendor and Product details:
Information about this product is from three main sources:

KipwareM® CNC Programming for Milling is a product page by the vendor
KipwareM Conversational CNC Programming Software for CNC Milling is similar but slightly different information
KTSoftware - YouTube is a youtube channel with a series of screen capture videos.

Suggested videos to see the basics of the program:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkWUA6aC7PQ]KipwareM - Conversational CNC Programming Software for Milling - YouTube[/ame] is a 20 minute version of an online demonstration of the software. The vendor also has about 50 other videos, many of which are subsets of the information provided in this long form plus many videos of different but related software products.

On the kipware.com site, there are no manuals, links to information, demo versions, or anything else very useful for evaluating the software.

On the kentechinc.com site, it is possible to find a little more information and to request a trial version. Unfortunately, the trial version is only valid for 3 days which is really a short amount of time. I think the company is shooting themselves in the foot by making such an extremely limited trial period for such an expensive bit of software. The trial version also requires you to call the company. Not very user friendly. It would be much more interesting to have a 30 day trial. The goal of trial software is for me to be in love with the program after 30 days so I would really like to purchase it. 3 days is barely enough time to understand the basics of the programs, especially since this is a set of 5 independent programs.

I have not downloaded the trial version, so have to base most of my review on watching what they have posted on youtube.

General Impressions:

The program has a very nice appearance. The user interface is generally pretty clean and uniform in the demos. The graphic representations of the operations are generally understandable and well organized.

The work flows in the program are mostly form based. Each operation is created by filling in a form for the specific type of operation. This is a nice style of creating the operations and makes it pretty straight forward.

Specifics:

+ The interface for the dialogs in general seem to be pretty easy to work with

+ I like the way that the operations allow for both roughing and finishing parameters. Most of the operations for milling have the ability to specify not only the amount of finish stock to leave behind, but also give you the ability to change from conventional roughing to climb milling for finishing. Doing this as one step is a great feature.

- Each operation requires you to enter specifics about the tool you intend to use. That is fine, but you have to enter the radius (rather than diameter) of the tool. This is most bizzare. This is the only program I have ever seen where you specify tool parameters in radius. I see this as a source of endless errors.

- In later steps, you assign tools to the operation specifying the number of the tool. I find this to be klunky and a potential source of error. It would be much better to specify the tool once.

- Cutter overlap is also specified. However, this value is not linked to the cutter radius, it is a numerical constant entered into the form. Therefore, changing the tool information means you have to manually update the overlap (step). Most programs use a percentage so you don't have to do this. I see this as another step that is going to be error prone.

- Other tool parameters are entered in the operation, such as the feed and plunge rates. This should be part of the tool assignment, as the speeds and feeds have much more to do with the specific tool.

+ I like the fact that you can specify seperate feeds for X/Y travel vs Z travel.

- A missing part of this is the ability to set a ramping parameter for the plunge. The pocketing operations appear to be all plunge only.

The video only goes in depth into the circular pocket operation. I have seen several other screens in some of the other videos, and they seem to have similar parameters to be set.

Once you have a series of operations, they are put into an 'operation tree'. To actually generate the GCODE, you link each operation to a tool number. This is a bit of a klunky part of the program. For each operation, you need to assign it a tool number, a work offset, the tool RPM's, and a couple of other parameters. Again, the relationship between tools and operations could be much cleaner and less error prone.

Specifically, the RPM's are set in this operation linking stage, but the feed rates are set in each operation. I find this to be very non-intuitive and probably error prone.

In addition, you also specify the Z clearance plane (safe plane I assume) in this operation linking step. At this point, you are so removed from the parameters of the actual operation that I see this being a place where you have real issues.

I think a huge improvement here would be to have a tool list (tool number and parameters (diameter, default speeds and feeds) just like most any other CAM program. I know this program is trying not to be a CAM program, but it is just confusing in this area. No need to invent a new paradigm here.

Other Modules:

KipwareM is the conversational programming module. There are a number of nice looking auxillary programs as well. There is a nice looking GCODE text editor with GCODE specific functions (renumbering, contextual highlighting, etc). I think the GCODE editor is a nice touch.

The toolpath plotting software demo was OK, but I thought the functionality was a little lacking. It plotted the operations, but seemed to be a 2D program. The program requires you to enter the tool diameter (not radius) manually to get a representation. The demo's I watched on Youtube left me wanting something better. The person doing the demo even made an error on the tool diameter, which tells me it needs work. You can create representations of the stock you are milling, but it appears you have to recreate it every time you run the program.

If I was in charge, it seems like this would be information that could be written into comments in the GCODE that would also be useful for the operator. For example, the tool information and stock

information could be put into the header of the GCODE and transferred between modules in an easy way. I think as part of the job setup, you should be able to specify the basic dimensions of the workpiece.

Conclusions:

I think this software has a lot of promise, and it could be very nicely enhanced. I like the interface, I like the look and feel.

There are several areas I find lacking, at least from the videos. All of this can be fixed and improved. Specifically, the way it handles tool parameters leaves me very concerned and thinking that the students I work with will have a confusing time with it.

This doesn't seem to me like a program I would use standing at the machine controller. There are too many little steps to make it to the GCODE.

Hopefully, the company will come around on the trial version time limit and give potential customers the ability to download the software and try it without having to expend so much effort.

I am not seeing $500 worth of value here yet.

[JohnToner]

Kevin wrote: What I am looking for:

I want a program that I can stand at my machines console and do some quick program creation without having to setup a CAD/CAM. I want the ability to create a series of operations using my machines controller for holes, slots, linear hole patterns. I want a program that has an obvious workflow so the high school students I work with in my shop can use it successfully.

Kevin, for such simple operations, just use a text editor and a few lines of G code. Or, eliminate the text editor and use the MDI. Maybe even allow, under your watchful eyes, the students to enter G code via MDI.

Its fast, easy, self-explanatory, and your students will learn more and have a better idea of what is actually going on with the machine.

Challenge the students, you'll be doing them a favor. Granted, in the "real world" CAD/CAM/PP are de rigor, still rather than being generic, each software solution is likely to have its own peculiarities and nuances, and therefore require the student to learn the specific software employed at the work site.

The reasons I still don't have CAD/CAM software include not only the cost, but also that so far, I've not had a need for CAD/CAM. Have your students draw the workpiece, dimension it, then code it. Admittedly, I am biased.

Ok, I promise no more cheer leading for G-code.

John

John

[ger21]

Gerry, thanks so much for that preview! It looks wonderful and very useful.

I'm convinced, it looks like a substantial improvement from the current version. Quite useful for building quick ad hoc one-time programs, and even more substantial production routines.

So, how may I purchase this, and when?

Thanks!

First, I'm not affiliated with the Mach people, and have nothing to do with this. I'm just relaying info I've seen elsewhere. Last week Brian mentioned that they were working on the webite, and it should be available soon, possibly in the next week or two.

From what I gather, it appears that Mach4 is still several months away.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

And Mach3 v4 provides completely different interfaces for pretty much *everything*, compared to Mach3. It no longer uses Cypress Basic for macros, using Lua instead. The plug-in interface is completely different, as is, I would imagine, the "Wizard" interface. So, not much chance these wizards will work with v4 as-is.

Regards,
Ray L.

[ger21]

...................... So, not much chance these wizards will work with v4 as-is.

Regards,
Ray L.

Which wizards are you referring too? The new ones I posted videos of, or the old ones? The new ones for mach4 are a standalone app and don't require Mach at all. I would guess that the g-code they produce should work in both Mach3 and Mach4.

[BlueChip]

kevinro ... I take back everything I said about ya ... even though it was all under my breath and you never heard it.

That post is impressive ... not only for the honest feedback ... but just for the fact that you took the time to put it together and post it. Your comments will be forwarded and will be taken to heart.

Thanks kevinro for taking the time to explore ... review ... and post about KipwareM ... much appreciated.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Which wizards are you referring too? The new ones I posted videos of, or the old ones? The new ones for mach4 are a standalone app and don't require Mach at all. I would guess that the g-code they produce should work in both Mach3 and Mach4.

Ger,

Sorry, I didn't realize it was a stand-alone app. From the discussion, I thought it was a Mach3 "Wizard". Smart move!

Regards,
Ray L.

[kevinro]

Kevin, for such simple operations, just use a text editor and a few lines of G code. Or, eliminate the text editor and use the MDI. Maybe even allow, under your watchful eyes, the students to enter G code via MDI.

If I were trying to teach students how to be a CNC machinist, I think you have a reasonable plan.

However, we are users of the CNC machine to achieve our goal of building robots. It is a slightly different skill set. We do use CAD to design the machine (it is an engineering based challenge). We use a combination of SprutCAM and Cut2D for the CAM operations. Having said that, there are times when a part needs to be created in a hurry.

They just don't operate at the G-Code level.

Kevin

[JohnToner]

Gotcha, that does make sense.

John

[BlueChip]

This is mainly for kevinro ... and for anyone who might be interested.

I really don't want to do any selling in the forum ... yes we try to steer people with possible needs to our webpage ... so do a lot of others ... but a post this lengthy I realize probably is a little too much for this forum. But after thoroughly reviewing kevinro's review of KipwareM ... I really thought a follow-up was required ... just to let anyone interested know we are serious about delivering a product we can be proud of and we take customer suggestions to heart. Keeping in mind that we can't please everyone ... and a lot of the comments made by kevinro are his personal opinions and personal wish list for the type of package he was reviewing ... we do implement features we feel are good ideas based on our 27+ years on the shop floor.

One point on the trial version. let's face it ... we are in business to sell our software. We would much rather provide the user with a live online demonstration where the user can see the FULL features of the software and ask questions of a real person in real time. people miss tons of things "playing" with software. We do give you (3) days ... and we ask that you start the trial when you have time to focus on your evaluation. We are a full time software company ... unlike others who ply their home grown software on the net. Call our office and you will talk with a real person ... so all you have to do is pick up the phone and give us a call. Is it so hard to do business "the old fashioned way" ... where you talk with someone. OR ... we have LIVE CHAT available on our website ... just type and tell us you want to try it ... happens many times every day. This seems like a big issue for kevinro ... it's a non-issue for me.

So below are some of the changes we have made ... some due to his comments, some were just in the works. Also so replies to his thoughts.

(1) <B>" ... but you have to enter the radius (rather than diameter) of the tool. This is most bizzare. This is the only program I have ever seen where you specify tool parameters in radius. I see this as a source of endless errors."</B> Really? If you know the diameter you know the radius ... if you don't ???? Since most machine offset pages require the user to enter the radius of the tool into the offset parameter ... my feeling is this is a natural fit and compliment for the shop floor ... which is where KipwareM is mainly found.

(2) <b>"- In later steps, you assign tools to the operation specifying the number of the tool. I find this to be klunky and a potential source of error. It would be much better to specify the tool once."</b> Actually you are only specifying the T code once ... when you decide which cycle in the tree you want to associate with that tool.

(3) <b>"- Cutter overlap is also specified. However, this value is not linked to the cutter radius, it is a numerical constant entered into the form. Therefore, changing the tool information means you have to manually update the overlap (step). Most programs use a percentage so you don't have to do this. I see this as another step that is going to be error prone. "</b> The cutter overlap is an amount ... say you want to overlap the previous cut by .050. The software does the math and it is dependent on the size of the cutter ... it's just not a percentage of the cutter. For me ... it's much easier to specify .100 rather than calculate what that is in % of the cutter. I personally find the % clunky ... but I'm a machinist.

(4)<b>" - Other tool parameters are entered in the operation, such as the feed and plunge rates. This should be part of the tool assignment, as the speeds and feeds have much more to do with the specific tool."</b> I feel that the feedrates are connected to the cutting operation you are creating as well as the tool. As a machinist, I know the type of tool I intend to use ... and if I want to program the same tool to machine a contour and machine a pocket ... with KipwareM I can set those parameters independently when creating the individual cycles.

(5) <b>" - A missing part of this is the ability to set a ramping parameter for the plunge. The pocketing operations appear to be all plunge only."</b> This has been added as anew feature ... it was in the works ... and is now available for every pocketing type operation. Thanks kevinro for pushing it along.

(6) <b>"In addition, you also specify the Z clearance plane (safe plane I assume) in this operation linking step. At this point, you are so removed from the parameters of the actual operation that I see this being a place where you have real issues."</b> This plane is strictly an initial plane to activate the tool offset ... it has no bearing on any of the cycles as they will take over per the inputs from the individual operations. This is strictly the plane where the tool can move around the part ... like say 5.00 over the part ... it has no bearing on the cutting.

(7) <b>"The toolpath plotting software demo was OK, ... It plotted the operations, but seemed to be a 2D program. The program requires you to enter the tool diameter (not radius) manually to get a representation."</b> This is a feature we are working on ... but since we sell the toolpath plotter as a stand alone app as well as part of the conversational module ... we are still trying to figure out the best way of getting it to work in both scenarios. kevinro failed to mention some of the nicer features ... at least the ones clients tell us are nice ... like the ability to import a DXF file as stock and plot the toolpath over the DXF stock. Yes we are 2D ... but we use a Z Vision bar that shows the Z position at all times. It's not 3D but I feel it is just as smooth like the way it works. We probably will add 3D at some later date.

(8) <b>"Hopefully, the company will come around on the trial version time limit and give potential customers the ability to download the software and try it without having to expend so much effort. I am not seeing $500 worth of value here yet. "<b> If you were really interested in the product ... and as above we are in the business of SELLING our quality product ... you can call anytime and arrange an online demo or download the trial ... which we can extend indefinitely if you need more time.

The $500 part ... you can purchase a one year SUBSCRIPTION for $125 dollars ... which includes ALL updates and UPGRADES for the life of the subscription. Yes there are options ... the toolpath plotter is another $50. It's an option because someone might not want it or need it ... there are other 3D plotters out there. But $125 dollars buys you the conversational module for standard shapes ... the SketchPad to draw or import DXF files for non-standard shapes ... full featured G code Editors ( which you stated you liked ). In addition the SketchPad can be used as stand-alone package ... or programs created in the SketchPad can be imported into the conversational Tree.

For the $500 part ... along with the features outlined above ... you receive the conversational module for non-standard shapes ... the SketchPad ... the toolpath plotter ... full featured G code Editors ... and our machine shop toolbox software that can calculate line-line intersecting points or line-arc-line tangencies and intersecting points from a fill-in-the-blank menu. That's (4) stand alone machine shop applications ... and it's a good deal.

If anyone has followed this through ... thank you.
For others ... I'm sorry to leave such a lengthy post but I really felt we needed to show that we take feedback to heart.

The video kevinro posted was quite old and created when the new version of the software was initially released. If you are interested in seeing the latest version and features ... please click the link below :

http://www.youtube.com/embed/Y6XBbeURN0U

Thanks to CNCZone for the opportunity to reply ... sorry for any "selling" that may have crept into my response.

For all product information and details .... please visit us at Kentech Inc. - Real World Machine Shop and CNC Software

[kevinro]

This is mainly for kevinro ... and for anyone who might be interested.

We do give you (3) days ... and we ask that you start the trial when you have time to focus on your evaluation. We are a full time software company ... unlike others who ply their home grown software on the net

[snip]

This seems like a big issue for kevinro ... it's a non-issue for me.

Ummm.... I am the prospective customer with the cash. It is an issue for me. By default, as the seller, this should be an issue for you.

You are a full time software company. I am NOT a full time software shopper. Expecting me to take time out of my schedule to focus on your software for three days is not reasonable. I honestly think you are making a business mistake here. What you want me to do is get used to using your software for the next 30 days. You want me to learn it, enjoy it, and feel like I would be sad if the ride ends. That is why nearly every other trial software lasts for 30 days.

If you think I am going to dedicate 3 full days of time solely to evaluating your software, I think you might need a reality check! :-)

(1) <B>" ... but you have to enter the radius (rather than diameter) of the tool. This is most bizzare. This is the only program I have ever seen where you specify tool parameters in radius. I see this as a source of endless errors."</B> Really? If you know the diameter you know the radius ... if you don't ???? Since most machine offset pages require the user to enter the radius of the tool into the offset parameter ... my feeling is this is a natural fit and compliment for the shop floor ... which is where KipwareM is mainly found.

What tool crib do you use? Every controller I have ever seen, every purchasing catalog I own, and everyone on this forum specify tool diameters, not radius. Perhaps you do have a different mindset that others.

Off the top of my head, I am going to admit I don't know what the decimal radius of a 3/16" bit is. Yes, I can do some math to figure it out, but this is the ONLY place in my workflow that I will be required to do so.

In addition, this is the ONLY place in my workflow that uses radius. The number specified in YOUR program is not going to match MY tool crib, MY control software, or MY way of thinking. It won't match G-Wizard, SprutCAM, Vetric, MasterCAM, GibbsCAM, or any of the other tools that the rest of us use. It will be confusing for my students as well. Your software claims to remove the CAD/CAM travesty and to make life simple. Right off the bat, you made my life complicated my using a non-standard measurement that is found nowhere else in my shop but in KipwareM.

(5) <b>" - A missing part of this is the ability to set a ramping parameter for the plunge. The pocketing operations appear to be all plunge only."</b> This has been added as anew feature ... it was in the works ... and is now available for every pocketing type operation. Thanks kevinro for pushing it along.

Yay, good addition! Two thumbs up.

(8) <b>"Hopefully, the company will come around on the trial version time limit and give potential customers the ability to download the software and try it without having to expend so much effort. I am not seeing $500 worth of value here yet. "<b> If you were really interested in the product ... and as above we are in the business of SELLING our quality product ... you can call anytime and arrange an online demo or download the trial ... which we can extend indefinitely if you need more time.

I appreciate the offer to extend this on request, and understand that you are really interested in SELLING your quality product. I am good with that. I also want you to sell your program. Having a vibrant market for CNC tools benefits everyone.

My opinion, especially if you are trying to find business among people like me, is that you have thrown up a number of barriers to entry. You seem to be overly concerned that somehow giving people more than 3 days is going to allow them to use your product without paying for it. Like I stated before, let me fall in love with your system. 3 days or 30 days won't matter in the end if I say no. If the software is awesome, I will be purchasing within 30 days. At the moment, I might be able to try a few things in the next 3 days, but I sure won't be able to give it a fair evaluation. If I can't give it a fair evaluation, then I am unlikely going to be singing your praises on CNCZone. In fact, I am likely not going to say anything and it will get ignored.

Go look at how G-Wizard does it. Bob puts out a quality product with a 30 day trial, lots of technical information. People use it, like it, buy it, recommend it to others. HSMAdvisor is going the same route. Let people use it, love it, recommend it, and they will pay for it.

Your stated online policies about losing licenses keys, short trial window, lack of detailed information about the product online, and the need to call to talk to someone are all barriers. You aren't open at 10pm EST when I am available to talk at 7PM PST. Many people would like to research things on their own terms. That is how I operate.

I can download Autodesk Inventor, Solidworks, Microsoft Office, Microsoft Windows, Adobe Master Collection, and a host of other much larger and more expensive titles to try for 30 days. I can look at their online help files, knowledge base, tutorials, and technical articles.

The video kevinro posted was quite old and created when the new version of the software was initially released. If you are interested in seeing the latest version and features ... please click the link below :

KipwareM - Conversational CNC Programming Software - YouTube

I had to ferret out that video on my own initiative. No guidance from the website of what to look at, other than a short 5 minute intro. You should REALLY put links to your in-depth videos on your website.

Hey, I like the software, please don't misunderstand. I think it has great potential. However, just as important as the software is would be the sustanability of the company selling it, especially with a subscription model. That is the part that I wonder about based on the policies.

Kevin