[ruawake]

does any one know if you can use a tormach thru some conversational controls?

[TXFred]

There are some wizards in Mach that come close, but they only do basic jobs like creating circular pockets, facing a part, etc. And because they're written by a bunch of different users, they don't share an interface, scheme, or style.

They're useful, but I would not rely on them on a regular basis. They're too clunky and too limited.

Frederic

[ruawake]

thanks txfred for the info..just seems like a daunting task to learn bobcad and bobcam just to make some simple parts

RUawake

[kevinro]

thanks txfred for the info..just seems like a daunting task to learn bobcad and bobcam just to make some simple parts

RUawake

There is one wizard called NewFangled in the list that actually is pretty reasonable to work with. The interface across modules is fairly uniform, and the output from the modules are combined into a single program. For example, you can cut a pocket, drill several holes, and face the part by running each module in sequence, then saving the entire program.

It is not as nice as other conversational interfaces I have seen on more expensive machines. However, it is usable for me. I think it cost $50 or something along those lines.

Newfangled Solutions LLC - Mach3 Addons for Mill

Kevin

[philbur]

Have a look here:

Newfangled Solutions LLC - Mach3 Addons for Mill

Phil

[neilw20]

I've used one of the teach mode wizards (can't remember which one) in Mach3 to trace a fairly complex shape and it worked well.
After tracing the shape with a pointer I manually added compensation for cutter width with G41/G42. (two extra lines)

[BlueChip]

KipwareM is conversational ... and compatible for Mach3 and Tormach ... and includeas a conversational CAD/CAM SketchPad.

Info : KipwareM Conversational CNC Programming Software for CNC Milling

[kevinro]

KipwareM is conversational ... and compatible for Mach3 and Tormach ... and includeas a conversational CAD/CAM SketchPad.

Info : KipwareM Conversational CNC Programming Software for CNC Milling

I stared at this once. It looks interesting, but there is no demo version. I am not willing to plunk down $500 for software that I have never seen. It also seems pretty expensive given that it appears to do the same steps as NewFangled. I am hopeful it has more features, but that is a $500 assumption I am not willing to make.

They offer a demo online if you make an appointment. I would much rather spend time with it myself. Or at least be able to look through the manual or help file online so I can evaluate if it is something worth buying.

All of the screen shots on their website are low resolution, and not useful in terms of looking at specifics. I wish they would at least put the manual online.

Kevin

[BlueChip]

Did you watch the video available from the webpage?
KipwareM Conversational CNC Programming Software For Milling - YouTube

[kevinro]

Did you watch the video available from the webpage?
KipwareM Conversational CNC Programming Software For Milling - YouTube

Yes I did. It shows very little detail other than telling me they want to stop the CAD/CAM overkill and features include "and so much more!!!". What more?

It does show some very nice features, like being able to save operations and recall them later. Like that. The ability to preview the operations. Like that. It looks like a nice program.

However, I don't know what parameter values they allow in the operations. I don't know what the resulting code is like. I don't know if the interface is klunky or not. I don't know if it crashes on my machine when I run it. Is it stable? Can I import or export data? Can I import, for example, a list of drill points for a multi hole pattern? Can I ramp instead of plunge on any operation? Does it really work with Mach3?

I would want to play with it or read about it before spending $500. Most software these days have demo versions, especially expensive ones. Nearly all reputable software companies put their manuals/help systems online.

I am also unclear on the pricing scheme. There are about 500 variations on combinations of software. Are any of these useful? No idea, never heard of them, can't try them, too much work to figure it out. The subscription version is least expensive up front, but will be paying for it for years. To get the equivalent KipwareM package as a subscription, it appears to be $375 a year (totalled up the options). Not a good value since it expires in 365 days, or it will cost me $750 for two years.

So I am down to paying $495 for software I can't try and can't evaluate if I really want or not vs a $50 program from NewFangled that I can at least download the manual for and play around with. If I don't like NewFangled, at least I am only out $50.

Support is a worse story. Support is not free. If there is a bug in the program, they charge $35 to talk to product support, paid in advance.

From their website:

Kentech Inc.Support

Heaven forbid your machine should lose a hard drive, you will have to purchase an upgrade version!

"Lost Installs and Lost Activation Codes

Customers are responsible to maintain a copy of all installation files, whether the software was delivered via CD or via a download. Users are encouraged to review the installation manual carefully when they receive their software.
Please remember when replacing an old computer that has the Kipware software on it you must REMOVE the LICENSE in order to be able to receive a new activiation code to install it on a new computer. This is part of our software license protection system. If customers do not REMOVE the LICENSE and submit the REMOVAL CODE, they may be required to purchase an upgrade or an additional seat for their software package.

◦Lost Installs---Product Upgrade Charges will Apply
◦Revised Activation Codes(when no REMOVAL CODE is available)--- Additional Seat Charges will Apply"

Kevin

[kevinro]

Did you watch the video available from the webpage?
KipwareM Conversational CNC Programming Software For Milling - YouTube

I spent about four hours evaluating this software last night. I was able to find information about the program by groping around on youtube. Didn't see links to any of this information on the website(s) for the company.

What I am looking for:

I want a program that I can stand at my machines console and do some quick program creation without having to setup a CAD/CAM. I want the ability to create a series of operations using my machines controller for holes, slots, linear hole patterns. I want a program that has an obvious workflow so the high school students I work with in my shop can use it successfully.

What I am looking at:


The following notes are for KipwareM which is a conversational CNC programming environment by Kentechinc.com

The idea behind this set of programs is to allow the operator of a CNC machine to create G-Code programs without needing to use a CAD/CAM package. This software uses the notion of a 'job' to

create a file that has a series of operations. The entire Job is then compiled into a G-CODE program that can be interpreted by a CNC machine.

Vendor and Product details:
Information about this product is from three main sources:

KipwareM® CNC Programming for Milling is a product page by the vendor
KipwareM Conversational CNC Programming Software for CNC Milling is similar but slightly different information
KTSoftware - YouTube is a youtube channel with a series of screen capture videos.

Suggested videos to see the basics of the program:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkWUA6aC7PQ]KipwareM - Conversational CNC Programming Software for Milling - YouTube[/ame] is a 20 minute version of an online demonstration of the software. The vendor also has about 50 other videos, many of which are subsets of the information provided in this long form plus many videos of different but related software products.

On the kipware.com site, there are no manuals, links to information, demo versions, or anything else very useful for evaluating the software.

On the kentechinc.com site, it is possible to find a little more information and to request a trial version. Unfortunately, the trial version is only valid for 3 days which is really a short amount of time. I think the company is shooting themselves in the foot by making such an extremely limited trial period for such an expensive bit of software. The trial version also requires you to call the company. Not very user friendly. It would be much more interesting to have a 30 day trial. The goal of trial software is for me to be in love with the program after 30 days so I would really like to purchase it. 3 days is barely enough time to understand the basics of the programs, especially since this is a set of 5 independent programs.

I have not downloaded the trial version, so have to base most of my review on watching what they have posted on youtube.

General Impressions:

The program has a very nice appearance. The user interface is generally pretty clean and uniform in the demos. The graphic representations of the operations are generally understandable and well organized.

The work flows in the program are mostly form based. Each operation is created by filling in a form for the specific type of operation. This is a nice style of creating the operations and makes it pretty straight forward.

Specifics:

+ The interface for the dialogs in general seem to be pretty easy to work with

+ I like the way that the operations allow for both roughing and finishing parameters. Most of the operations for milling have the ability to specify not only the amount of finish stock to leave behind, but also give you the ability to change from conventional roughing to climb milling for finishing. Doing this as one step is a great feature.

- Each operation requires you to enter specifics about the tool you intend to use. That is fine, but you have to enter the radius (rather than diameter) of the tool. This is most bizzare. This is the only program I have ever seen where you specify tool parameters in radius. I see this as a source of endless errors.

- In later steps, you assign tools to the operation specifying the number of the tool. I find this to be klunky and a potential source of error. It would be much better to specify the tool once.

- Cutter overlap is also specified. However, this value is not linked to the cutter radius, it is a numerical constant entered into the form. Therefore, changing the tool information means you have to manually update the overlap (step). Most programs use a percentage so you don't have to do this. I see this as another step that is going to be error prone.

- Other tool parameters are entered in the operation, such as the feed and plunge rates. This should be part of the tool assignment, as the speeds and feeds have much more to do with the specific tool.

+ I like the fact that you can specify seperate feeds for X/Y travel vs Z travel.

- A missing part of this is the ability to set a ramping parameter for the plunge. The pocketing operations appear to be all plunge only.

The video only goes in depth into the circular pocket operation. I have seen several other screens in some of the other videos, and they seem to have similar parameters to be set.

Once you have a series of operations, they are put into an 'operation tree'. To actually generate the GCODE, you link each operation to a tool number. This is a bit of a klunky part of the program. For each operation, you need to assign it a tool number, a work offset, the tool RPM's, and a couple of other parameters. Again, the relationship between tools and operations could be much cleaner and less error prone.

Specifically, the RPM's are set in this operation linking stage, but the feed rates are set in each operation. I find this to be very non-intuitive and probably error prone.

In addition, you also specify the Z clearance plane (safe plane I assume) in this operation linking step. At this point, you are so removed from the parameters of the actual operation that I see this being a place where you have real issues.

I think a huge improvement here would be to have a tool list (tool number and parameters (diameter, default speeds and feeds) just like most any other CAM program. I know this program is trying not to be a CAM program, but it is just confusing in this area. No need to invent a new paradigm here.

Other Modules:

KipwareM is the conversational programming module. There are a number of nice looking auxillary programs as well. There is a nice looking GCODE text editor with GCODE specific functions (renumbering, contextual highlighting, etc). I think the GCODE editor is a nice touch.

The toolpath plotting software demo was OK, but I thought the functionality was a little lacking. It plotted the operations, but seemed to be a 2D program. The program requires you to enter the tool diameter (not radius) manually to get a representation. The demo's I watched on Youtube left me wanting something better. The person doing the demo even made an error on the tool diameter, which tells me it needs work. You can create representations of the stock you are milling, but it appears you have to recreate it every time you run the program.

If I was in charge, it seems like this would be information that could be written into comments in the GCODE that would also be useful for the operator. For example, the tool information and stock

information could be put into the header of the GCODE and transferred between modules in an easy way. I think as part of the job setup, you should be able to specify the basic dimensions of the workpiece.

Conclusions:

I think this software has a lot of promise, and it could be very nicely enhanced. I like the interface, I like the look and feel.

There are several areas I find lacking, at least from the videos. All of this can be fixed and improved. Specifically, the way it handles tool parameters leaves me very concerned and thinking that the students I work with will have a confusing time with it.

This doesn't seem to me like a program I would use standing at the machine controller. There are too many little steps to make it to the GCODE.

Hopefully, the company will come around on the trial version time limit and give potential customers the ability to download the software and try it without having to expend so much effort.

I am not seeing $500 worth of value here yet.

[JohnToner]

Ruawake,

I'm very new to CNC. Some six years ago I took a set-up course at a local J.C., nothing since then. My first subsequent contact was when I got my 1100 about two months ago. Due to health issues and a heavy work schedule, I can't get in more than 8 or 10 hours per week on the machine. A rather nasty surgery Thursday of this week will keep me off the machine for three more weeks. I can't, for love or money, get a grasp of CAD or CAM. However, "G" code and related instructions are very straight forward, easy to learn, and provide the additional benefit of providing you with a much greater understanding of your part-program. Programing for most 2 1/2 D parts is pretty straight forward. I've made some decent parts using nothing more than G00, G1,2, and 3, G17, G28, G40, 41, 42, 43, and 44, G54, G80, 81, 82, and 83, G90 and 91, along with a few needed M, N, O , F, and S words whose needs will be self-evident. While the list, plus a few commands I've not listed, may, at first glance, seem daunting, they are actually quite easy to employ. Even an old dog such as I can learn a few new tricks, and I'm not even a real machinist - just a hack who machines for fun and relaxation. I've managed to make some useful parts and at present I'm coding an AR lower.

One helpful technique has been to test my code with EZ Wizard's simulator, followed by "air machining", then some scrap wood (machinists wax would be better), and finally, I cut metal. My "CAD" program is a $2.00, 8 1/2"x11" pad of graph paper, a compass, protractor, straight edge, mechanical pencil, and an art gum eraser. Total cost less than $15.00, and it never crashes or requires updating.

I hope this will help. If it seems more like mindless babel, chalk it off to Vicodin and groin surgery (ouch!!).

John

[neilw20]

Really, learning some G code, and experimenting is well worth it.
Set the dwell to a position well above the job or leave no cutter in machine and cut some air for a while. Conversational will be much more learning to do.
A little basics first will go a long way.
Read on.. and read the Mach3 manual - section 10 is a good start. 36 pages worth skimming over to get the feel of it.
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf

[nitewatchman]

I have regular conversations with my machine but it ignores me and never answers.

It does seem to get testy when I talk about it's mother's possible canine background.

nitewatchman

[neilw20]

I think it is an astute potential customer, showing due diligence for his $$$s and license concerns.
Sometimes it becomes just too hard to BUY something, no strings attached.
Good value, maybe, but with timebombs (hard drive fails !! - was it the hard drive that got the license?) attached.

[ruawake]

JohnToner,
Thanks for sharing some very useful information. Often the simple ways are the best.
I wish the programmers for the cad cam programs would put more thought into their interface they are producing, it could be so much easier to use.
when flatbed color scanners were around 5,000. , we bought a b/w panasonic video camera for about 100. and used a color wheel(r,g,b), and did 3 separate video captures thru the color wheel, and used some cheap software to create a 4096 bit color scan, in hold and modify mode.
i wish it could be that easy to create a cheap 3d scanner.
thanks again,

RUawake

[ger21]

A new standalone version of the Newfangled wizards should be out very soon.

[ruawake]

need to get thru a 39 inch wide door to first floor, anyone have the dimensions of the machine out of the shipping crates?
Thanks for any and all information you guys have shared with me..

jon

[Gerry Sweetland]

need to get thru a 39 inch wide door to first floor, anyone have the dimensions of the machine out of the shipping crates?
Thanks for any and all information you guys have shared with me..

jon

I think you can still download PDF drawings from Tormach's web site showing over all size.
And why are you asking about the size of the machine in a post about "is the tormach conversational?"?
Gerry

[ruawake]

because i also need exact dimensions to see if it can get thru our font door