[jid2]

I'm looking to get a used Super Mini Mill and have a few questions about what is compatible in terms of options as well as thoughts from guys who use these machines.

- What year machines include the USB port? Can this be added to older machines, if so starting in what year? I know it's nit-picky, but using a 3.5" floppy... really - I just can't see having to do that. Hoe good does the RS-232 link work and what goes into that?

- What year was the color monitor installed? Where there noticeable changes to the user interface other than color? If so, what makes it better etc.

- Can the current High-Speed Machining option be added to any year machine. If not, what is the first year that is compatible? I've heard any Haas should have this as otherwise the control gets bogged easily. I program with lots of HSM toolpaths and want to be able to let things rip.

- I have seen some Super Mini Mills with 15,000 RPM spindles. Which years was this available? Why is this no longer available, were there issues with it? Is it indeed 5K RPM more sweet then the 10K RPM that they use now?

If I could score a Super, which should include Rigid Tap and Coolant, along with the HSM option and some USB goodness for around $35K (or less of course) that would be ideal.

Thoughts?

[eaglemike]

I have a SMM, built late 2006, rec'd new early 2007. It has the nice screen, USB, hard drive (which I never use). The rs232 is very easy and painless to use. I've used it a few times on this machine, use all the time on the vf2 without issue. You would likely need a usb/serial cable since few computers have serial any more- make sure you get one that works. I've though about hsm, but not purchased yet, costs abut $2400. If you got the 15K spindle, would likely have hsm. I don't think you will have a problem getting a decent machine for $35K.

[jid2]

I'm leaning toward finding one with the 15k spindle, seems worth it for surfacing and small tools. Does anyone with that spindle have comments on how much power it has at max RPM driving a 1/2 tool for roughing? Or do you need to run the bigger tools at say 10k to keep them in the powerband.

From what I can gather super minis started in 2001 and were available with the 15k spindle option up until 2011. So it was just discontinued. Not sure why.

[Delw]

Personally I wouldnt touch a 15k spindle unless all I did was surfacing.
Before we bought our vf2ss I talked in length with the techs at haas about the 15k spindle. the 15k spindle has ceramic bearings any shock will pretty much render them useless. heavy cuts are a nono. for a job shop a 15k spindle isnt worth it. unless you have more than one machine. if this is your only machine get a 12k spindle you can cut more. and yes a minimill will cut really nice with a 1/2 endmill.
Haas reccomended we didnt buy the 15k option for our line of work(ie job shop) and I do a ton of surfacing. but also peck drilling, hog outs etc etc.

geoff is a wizard on mini mills he might chime in unless he is on vacation again .

Delw


Anymachine is worth the highspeed option makes a huge difference in a job shop wether you think you need it or not.

[jid2]

The super mini comes with either the 10k or the 15k, 12k is not an option. I did send an email to Haas tech but never heard back. I wonder if the 15k on the mini uses the ceramic bearings like the bigger machines.

Good input though. Thanks.

[Delw]

Emails suck, call them and talk to them.
all the spindles are pretty much the same from haas as far as bearings

then get the 10k option
12k and below are stainless bearings not ceramic like the 15k and above.

Delw

[Geof]

Not on vacation yet, two days to go.

On the topic of 15k versus 10k spindles I am convinced 15k is not worth the extra cost and care you have to take unless you have a specific application such as surfacing or always using small tools. For routine work using cutters in the 1/4" to 3/4" range a higher spindle speed will not remove metal faster because you have to pull back on the feed and or depth of cut.

Another consideration is that you must use well balanced tooling at 15k. At 10k you can get away with being a bit sloppier without damaging your spindle (unless you get really sloppy and try running a fly cutter at 10k). At 15k it is possible to toast the spindle very quickly with a poorly balanced cutter.

[jid2]

Cool, thanks for the insight. Anything else I should know about looking for a super with the standard 10k spindle. Anything specific on a certain year or things like that?

[Geof]

Around 2004 to 2006, I cannot remember exactly when, there were problems with the toolchanger motors but probably they will have all been replaced by now. The field magnets would come loose and jam everything inside the motor. Apart from that I cannot think of anything specific to a particular year between 2000 and 2009.

[haastec]

Emails suck, call them and talk to them.
all the spindles are pretty much the same from haas as far as bearings

then get the 10k option
12k and below are stainless bearings not ceramic like the 15k and above.

Delw

Just to clarify for future reference, 12K spindles have ceramic bearings also.

[haastec]

Double post.

[Ydna]

The 12K and 15K both use ceramic bearings, although the 10K doesn't.
(edit, oops he mentioned it before me..)

That said, "roughing" is tricky with the minimills...at least your definition of roughing has to be altered a little bit. The machines don't have a lot of torque available so it's difficult to perform deep, full-depth slots. You can do full slots, just can't go crazy with some of the cutting parameters. Still easy to do roughing operations with some of the more modern toolpaths offered by CAM systems, or by running a roughing endmill to eat away as much material as possible with a low spindle speed and high feedrate. (the max torque of the 10K spindle is hit around 5000-RPM)

[jid2]

^^^ I will be running HSM toolpaths for roughing in most cases - I program with HSMWorks. My general mindset is to never do any slotting unless absolutely needed. A typical roughing path would be at full depth (up to about 1.5") with a 1/2" 3 flute tool, and I'd likely see what the machine likes for radial engagement, but I'd guess that it's between .100" and .200" which is between 20%-40% engagement.

So at 10K RPM and 210IPM 1.0" DOC and .125" axial engagement that's doing MRR of 26 and about the bounds of putting .001" deflection in the tool. That should run no problem on a Super Mini - yeah?

[Delw]

Just to clarify for future reference, 12K spindles have ceramic bearings also.

Not according to the haas engineers and my HFO here. unless they changed them sence 2009.
If this machine has Ceramic bearings I am going to be one pissed off MF'r cause that will explain the chatter problems I had from the begining of time.
Please Confirm and let me know. its late 2008 vf2ss.

Delw

[KenFoulks]

12K spindles have ceramic bearings. A VF-2SS with 12k, built in 2008 would have ceramic bearings. According to your serial number, your machine was built with ceramic bearings.

In early 2012, we added a steel bearing to the ceramic bearing spindles. Prior to this, the ceramic bearings isolated the spindle and would result in an open resistance reading between the spindle and housing. So, you can put on multimeter from the spindle to the housing and measure resistance. It should be an open circuit. If it is not open, it may have been replaced.

[Delw]

F'n great. so your techs are freaking clueless.
That may explain why I have bad chatter on long endmills , cant run standard endmill on anything and my fadal and supermax can out run my Haas. ?????????????????????

I have told you and HAAS DIRECT from day 1 that the machine chatters, (its even documented on this forum and some emails I have).
you sent me to 2 other guys who did absoluetly f'n nothing,(not even a call back to let me know if they were working on it) I called them 3-5 times and it was Ummmm Let me check on it) MY HFO says theres no problem with it. there techs except one are clueless f'n idiots anyhow.how can you see a part that looks like its been cut with a jack hammer and say there is nothign wrong with it. yet the same tools they bring same feeds and speeds get put on the fadal and the parts are perfect. I been paitent forsure and you know it.
I still got pictures from the idiot techs that were sent over to "CHECK THE MACHINE OUT AGAIN" when we did there test parts. you guys never got them, I ended up sending them myself and the whole thing just disapeared. the techs said that is normal for someone who doesnt know what there doing. Funny they used there OWN tooling and endmills the chinese wouldnt make a part that freaking bad.


I have to use aluminum specific endmills to run this machine( which I dont mind cause I found a great endmill thaty works better in the other 3 mills). I just cant run a standard solid carbide 2 flute or 3 flute for anything (even with a .010 -.025 cut) unless I want chatter. 1/16 and 1/8 endmills chatter we fixed it by going to harvey 3 fluters made for alum or gaar 4 fluters that are coated and dropping the spindle speed and feed down.

Am I pissed f-yeah. We figured out how to run this machine with its "disability", it works makes great parts. but long endmills even on plastic have to be ran in a 1996 fadal to avoid chatter.
Maybe you guys can send me a handicap sticker for the machine huh?

Delw

[haastec]

In early 2012, we added a steel bearing to the ceramic bearing spindles. Prior to this, the ceramic bearings isolated the spindle and would result in an open resistance reading between the spindle and housing. So, you can put on multimeter from the spindle to the housing and measure resistance. It should be an open circuit. If it is not open, it may have been replaced.

Ken, just so I understand correctly, is there just one steel bearing to prevent the spindle housing from being isolated? The remaining bearings are ceramic?

[KenFoulks]

I do remember your issues. I have one of your test-cut pieces on my desk. The tech that was assigned is no longer with us. When he was here, he assured me that he was on top of your issue. Lets revisit your machine's issues off-line from CNC Zone. Then, you can post what happened at the end. I'll send you an email.

[Ydna]

^^^ I will be running HSM toolpaths for roughing in most cases - I program with HSMWorks. My general mindset is to never do any slotting unless absolutely needed. A typical roughing path would be at full depth (up to about 1.5") with a 1/2" 3 flute tool, and I'd likely see what the machine likes for radial engagement, but I'd guess that it's between .100" and .200" which is between 20%-40% engagement.
So at 10K RPM and 210IPM 1.0" DOC and .125" axial engagement that's doing MRR of 26 and about the bounds of putting .001" deflection in the tool. That should run no problem on a Super Mini - yeah?

I can't tell you exactly if it would have enough torque to drive that, but my guess would be you'll have to tweak it a little bit for lower RPM (so you can achieve more torque) and it would work. Just as an approximation, if you decrease the RPM by 20-30% you'll probably get triple the power from the spindle. I don't think your sample numbers would work at 10krpm but you might be ok at 7k instead, use a good endmill that can hit a high chipload at the same feedrate you're talking about and I think it would be fine.

I used to have an SMM but we sold it recently. The jobs we did on it didn't include much roughing because we had another machine that could do it more effectively, so personally I can't be of much help there. The guy that programmed the machine almost never used any HSM techniques and would then complain about his poor results...durrr.