[itguy51]

I am working with teachers at my school to look at investing in a CNC machine, and we have 2 options so far. We're just worried about price in the long run (Coolant and lubrication) The pricing, we're not quite sure of at this point. The 2 machines are a Datron M8 (The standard M8 or the Cube, they seem to both fit our needs, however a 3D sensor would be nice along with a mist-based cooling system) and a Haas VF-3 with SMTC and Coolant Nozzle ($74,985 after configuration, If I added networking like the M8 has, I would be looking at an additional $1600, and the electrician costs are currently unknown.)

The ups and downs of both machines (My M8 list is based on Datron's datasheets)

VF-3 Pros

• Long Z-Axis capability
• Previous Experience
• Possible Discounts

VF-3 Cons (For our setup)

• It's huge.
• Uses 3-Phase AC (We don't have 3 Phase already wired)
• It's really heavy

M8 Pros

• Datron says it can use Single Phase AC
• It fits size requirements
• It fits weight requirements
• Uses small amounts of coolant at a time

M8 Cons

• We don't know the cost right now
• We cannot use the Ethanol coolant for steel
• Shorter Z-Axis

I've always loved the look of Datron machines (Seen them, never used them, but I really want to) along with their use of a minimal cutting head to get the job done. If anyone knows the costs of a M8 (With or without 3D sensors, but including the mist coolant system), along with whether or not they do educational discounts, that would be great information, and I would surely pass that on to the Engineering teacher.

My teacher has used Datron mills before, but I have only used a Haas VF-3 at a local machine shop. I think we're leaning towards the Datron mill, but if the Haas mill costs less, then that may be a better option. (We have a Robotics team as well, and we have used machines that have too high of a tolerance, so precision is important)

In a sentence: My school is looking for a CNC mill, What is better for a school, a Datron M8 or a Haas VF-3?

[itguy51]

We are also totally open to other machines that fit within a 10'x10'x10' area, while the VF-3 pushes this a lot, it's the biggest machine we could possibly fit. If it fits in the area a VF-3 takes up, it would be fine. I've seen other machine companies (Fadal, Toyoda, etc.) and figured that we aren't required to go with a Haas or a Datron.

[Geof]

Why are you considering such a large machine for school use? Does someone have a hidden agenda where they want a machine available to do freebie jobs on? Large freeebie jobs? For less money you could get a Haas MiniMill which will run on single phase power, and a HRT160 rotary and this is perfectly good enough for training purposes. And if your budget really is $75k you could probably get a Haas TL1 as well to round out your training capacity.

[underthetire]

No idea what a daltron is, been in this business for 30 years. If your teaching and not just looking for a cool gadget, get something with a standard control, fanuc, Mitsubish or a Haas. A tm1p haas would be nice in a school, as well as a mini mill, both are single phase capable and a 4 th and probing can be added to either one.

[itguy51]

The worry that we have is volume (We will have a welded aluminum frame that we would CNC holes and other mounting points into that can get up to 30"x20") - Height is not much of an issue here, because parts will be mainly flat for Robotics, but there are some school projects that use curved surfaces (Some people have tried to print detailed terrains on our 3D printer, and knowing how our school is, we'd be running very high-precision jobs on the CNC. I've never tried to do high-precision on a Haas, so I have no way to compare between those two, while my teacher has used a Datron for parts that are around 2"x2" with very high precision.

[wizard]

You make no mention of the schools level, nor indicate what other equipment they have. This makes it very difficult to understand why you think you need this equipment.

The worry that we have is volume (We will have a welded aluminum frame that we would CNC holes and other mounting points into that can get up to 30"x20")

This type of work can be done on a robust router type machine. Something the size you suggest above would require a large mill that has no place in a high school. Maybe as part of a vocational training program where it would get regular use but for a robotics program I'm afraid you are nuts. I mean that in the kindest way, I just don't see the wisdom in having a such a large mill sit idle 99% of the time. At least with a router type machine, big enough to handle sheet goos, you will have the opportunity to leverage it for other classes such as wood working.

- Height is not much of an issue here, because parts will be mainly flat for Robotics, but there are some school projects that use curved surfaces (Some people have tried to print detailed terrains on our 3D printer, and knowing how our school is, we'd be running very high-precision jobs on the CNC.

There is no rational reason to be running high precision jobs, at least I don't see one because most robotics programs are about assembly of components to make a functioning machine.

I've never tried to do high-precision on a Haas, so I have no way to compare between those two, while my teacher has used a Datron for parts that are around 2"x2" with very high precision.

I guess I have a big problem with your focus on high precision for the described uses. If the focus is robotics and the program is like others I know of, I just don't see why you are hung up on precision. Now maybe I'm the one that is too focused on one aspect of your needs (robotics)' if so you need to detail your needs better because right now I think you would have a hard time convincing anybody in your community that spending $80,000 on such a mill makes sense. At least at this point I don't see an arguement that makes sense. For that sort of money you should be able to buy a robust router and a small CNC mill.

So in the finest tradition of the web -> we need more info!

[wizard]

He is likely referring to these guys: http://www.datron.com/index.php. They are a German manufacture of some pretty nice machines. I could see where one or more of their machines might be very nice to have but I hardly see these as cheap machines though I could be wrong. These are machines that start out with polymer concrete frames and are effectively small gantry mills.

In any event I have to agree with your position, get a mill that uses common controllers such as a FANUC or Haas. After all this is an educational opportunity that should reflect commonly available hardware. By that token machines running LinuxCNC or even Mach are reasonable considerations. I also agree that Hass has some nice solutions in the way of their Mini mills which are something that can be had used or maybe at a discount. With careful shopping they could easily get a reasonable router type machine along with a smaller mill. I do hope that they focus part of their budget on all of the require accessories. A bare machine will not be of much use to them.

I'm tending to not suggest some of the cheaper mills out there because of the setting the mill should be fully enclosed. This likely would be an issue for an exposed router type machine. Someone else mentioned a lathe and this is also something that should be considered. An operation like FADEC http://www.fadeceng.com/ (the link was dead a few minutes ago, much like this site) has some nice small machines at reasonable price points. Maybe too small but I think they can solve their problems easily and at a lower cost with multiple machines.

In the end there are probably several thousand different ways to outfit the program. Admittedly this makes it hard to come to the right decision. Given that I don't see the need for a massive mill.

No idea what a daltron is, been in this business for 30 years. If your teaching and not just looking for a cool gadget, get something with a standard control, fanuc, Mitsubish or a Haas. A tm1p haas would be nice in a school, as well as a mini mill, both are single phase capable and a 4 th and probing can be added to either one.

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

Might help to define "high precision".

Dick Z

[Geof]

.....Does someone have a hidden agenda where they want a machine available to do freebie jobs on? Large freeebie jobs?....

I quote myself to reiterate the query. Nothing so far written convinces me that the primary purpose of this purchase is training.

[jeffery926]

In a sentence: My school is looking for a CNC mill, What is better for a school?

http://www.hurco.com/en-us/machine-t...x#.UU3N9xfHnB8

[underthetire]

High precision is a relative term till you stick numbers behind it. I used to think +/-.0002 was high precision. I had no idea what high precision really meant till where I work now.
If its a large engineering school, companies like Mori Seiki have given machines to schools. UC Davis for one example.

[mactec54]

itguy51

The Datron is a great machine, for aluminum machining mostly, If you are talking precision you would get just the same from a Haas as you would get from the Datron, You talked about doing steel, Then you would have to go with the Haas or a machine like it, the Datron is not going to do your steel work very well, it can do steel but is very weak in this area

The Haas TM series will do all you need for the size parts you need to make

[itguy51]

I just got an response from a machine shop that's about a mile from my school, asking about what they use for CNCs, They have a VF-4 and a M10 Pro in their shop, and I figure at this point, if anything needs that much machining, we can go to the shop. I has also asked them what they thought for a machine that could work well, and they said a Minimill 2 with Coolant Pump and a SMTC*. which is similar to what Geof recommended. I think that would be the best option at this point, with having access to a much larger CNC available for a cost.

A couple questions, however.

Is it worth buying the Super Minimill 2 for the higher speeds and tapping abilities, or would those just go unnoticed/unused? (It's an $8K price jump, we could get the Minimill 2 with coolant and SMTC* for around this cost)

*Is the SMTC worth getting? I doubt any job would use more than 10 tools that would fit in the 10 tool automatic changer, but I have heard of the carousel-type changers getting damaged, and I'm not sure about replacement costs or service requirements.

[wizard]

I quote myself to reiterate the query. Nothing so far written convinces me that the primary purpose of this purchase is training.

Understanding the need here is what will point us to the right machine. Right now I just don't know, though there have been allusions to a robotics program. Even if it is part of a robotics program I don't see the need for such a massive and expensive machine.

Locally we have vocational schools where the resources of many districts are pooled for a variety of vocational training. In one case they have a machining program along with things like electrical systems, automotive and the like. The machine shop is actually rather huge, in this sort of environment I could see such a machine being purchased, installed and justified. The poster though is talking about a 10 x 10 space so obviously we are not talking about that sort of program.

I'm not sure why the emphasis on precision, it certainly isn't needed for a robotics program. The company I work for has supported a FIRST (possibly) robotics team for sometime even hosting the students, they have been working with manual machines. One of the toolmakers I work with spends one night a week helping out. It is an interesting approach to getting kids interested in technology. Now I can see how a CNC machine might help the program, I just don't see the need to waste money on a massive milling machine of the size being discussed here. Especially when the final cost is likely to run close to $100,000 dollars. CNC technology should be part of the program, don't get me wrong there, but the investment needs to be rational.

As to motivation, I won't speculate but this isn't the first post from somebody involved in a robotics program with unrealistic expectations or desires. It often seems like it is due to a lack of experience or practicle knowledge. Speaking of practicle, for the cost of this mill they want they could take their CNC work to a local shop every year for ten years straight and still have money left over. It is a reality that even a large company, with a well equipped machine shop, needs to rely upon outside shops from time to time.

[underthetire]

Higher speeds is the last thing you want in the school unless you like the service guy. Umbrella atc is fine for non production environment.

[wizard]

I just got an response from a machine shop that's about a mile from my school, asking about what they use for CNCs, They have a VF-4 and a M10 Pro in their shop, and I figure at this point, if anything needs that much machining, we can go to the shop.

That would be a good move. If the shop is enlightened they may give you an educational discount. Considering the space you have for the machine I just don't see a reason to coop the entire space with one machine.

I has also asked them what they thought for a machine that could work well, and they said a Minimill 2 with Coolant Pump and a SMTC*. which is similar to what Geof recommended. I think that would be the best option at this point, with having access to a much larger CNC available for a cost.

The MiniMill would likely be a very good fit but there are many manufactures besides Haas. For example Fryer, Hardinge/Bridgeport, Okuma, Mori Seihi, FadalMag or whatever they are called now, Fadec, Tormach, Grizzly, Novakon, Smithy, Kent USA, Southwestern Industries, Centroid (mostly controls), SyilAmerica, Rolanddga, Clausing and others. In otherwords there is an endless list of potential machines.

Many of the above mills though are without enclosures. This is a problem in two ways. First; there is a real safety issue with students. Second; mills without enclosures make big messes. So eliminate any machine without a full enclosure!

A couple questions, however.

Is it worth buying the Super Minimill 2 for the higher speeds and tapping abilities, or would those just go unnoticed/unused? (It's an $8K price jump, we could get the Minimill 2 with coolant and SMTC* for around this cost)

High speed spindles can be leveraged in the machining of aluminum. Just make sure it isn't an engraving spindle. Is it worth the extra costs for your use - I'd say doubtful. You have to remember this is a learning process, it takes awhile for students to get up to speed.

*Is the SMTC worth getting? I doubt any job would use more than 10 tools that would fit in the 10 tool automatic changer, but I have heard of the carousel-type changers getting damaged, and I'm not sure about replacement costs or service requirements.

In a perfect world your tool changer would have unlimited tools that are always sharp.

As to servicing, all machines require servicing! Much of that can be done yourself if you are so inclined. Major break downs may require factory servicing which can be expensive. As for tool changers breaking I suppose that is possible but do realize that you can break just about anything on a CNC machine if you try hard enough.

Some other points:
1.
It would be foolish to get a mill and not have a lathe available. Even a manual lathe can do wonders here.
2.
You need to budget a lot of money for tooling, things like vises, chucks, hold down sets, inspection and measurement equipment, cutters and probably a grinder/deburring machine
3.
You are working mostly with aluminum which implies that a robust router type machine might do the job. However these are open machines and are probably less than ideal in an educational setting with kids involved.
4.
Software. Is a real problem as it is a big expense. You would need a CAD and a CAM package possibly a couple of different package gets. Again search out for educational discounts.
5.
Even with an enclosed machine make sure strict safety policies are enforced.

[mactec54]

itguy51

The super Mini mill you will need 3ph power the Mini Mill 2 you can run on single ph, why I said the TM series is you wanted longer X axes travels, this machine will give you that & it runs on single ph as well, I have both the Mini Mill & the Mini Mill2, I like the Mini Mill 2 the best because you have 4" more travel in the X Y Z, if you only need up to 10 tools, then you don't need the SMTC, Just get the extra Ram, Ridgid taping High speed look ahead, & probing if you want it, Don't get the Hard drive opition, it is not needed, & the cost can be spent on tooling

[paulctan]

If this is for a FIRST robotics team in a school, then I would even advise going with a smaller CNC and save the money for tooling and an Automatic Tool Changer. I've helped several FIRST teams over the past 8 years, and I understand the need for a CNC machine in the same building (builds always take place at nights and weekends, and kids - and mentors - never plan ahead on what they need. Having used my own CNC machine (Novakon NM-070) for the teams, I think I can express the need better:

1. They need to cut 6061 Aluminum.
2. They need to cut bearing holes.
3. They need to cut pieces 18" x 6" 1/4 6061 aluminum
4. They need to be able to do this without fiddling with the machine.

Perhaps a Tormach with automatic tool changer?

[jeffery926]

I have taught car mechanics, sheet rock hangers, carpenters and some with no skills at all how to program and run a Hurco. None of them did any machine work in there life and within a week, they could setup, program and start making parts. With Hurco's conversational programming controls, it's the easiest machine to teach someone how to use.

It only make sense to spend more time making parts instead of wasting allot time teaching someone how to program and run some complicated controller. Paul, it's even easier then Mach3 controller on the Tormach.

[itguy51]

1.
It would be foolish to get a mill and not have a lathe available. Even a manual lathe can do wonders here.
2.
You need to budget a lot of money for tooling, things like vises, chucks, hold down sets, inspection and measurement equipment, cutters and probably a grinder/deburring machine
3.
You are working mostly with aluminum which implies that a robust router type machine might do the job. However these are open machines and are probably less than ideal in an educational setting with kids involved.
4.
Software. Is a real problem as it is a big expense. You would need a CAD and a CAM package possibly a couple of different package gets. Again search out for educational discounts.
5.
Even with an enclosed machine make sure strict safety policies are enforced.

1. We have a lathe, we just never got around to getting it set up - There was no place to put it at the time we got it, and it had just kind of sat around. Over the summer, I plan to go in and help set up the Engineering room with a toolbench (We just ordered one, all of the tools were just put on a "Wherever it fits" type of arrangement.) and hopefully set up the lathe and some other stored tools.

2. I had just looked at tooling costs, and that also was a factor in bringing me down from such an expensive machine. If we blow the budget on ONLY the CNC, it's of no use unless there is a budget for tooling and replacement bits.

4. Our school gives all students licenses of SolidWorks for Education once they join either the Robotics team or take an Engineering class. We'll probably have 1 or 2 machines with CAM software. I also have NX on my laptop, which (If I remember correctly) has CAM features built in.

Also, about Haas, The reason I'm sticking to them is that I know that they have educational discounts, something around 10-15%. I'm not sure about what other companies offer.