[oly2brf5]

A couple of months ago I had some issues with the spindle on my PCNC1100 running erratically. After leaving the machine on, and warming the electrical cabinet the spindle ran fine for many hours. So I put the problem down to condensation, as the mill is in an unheated garage.

However, last weekend, when 'air cutting' on a new program to check clamp clearances, the spindle started, and then stopped. Next time I ran the program the spindle didn't start at all. The program was a simple one, drilling five holes. A detailed check of the G-code revealed no issues, and the canned cycles looked identical to a previous program that had run without issue. Conclusion, there was a problem with the mill itself.

I ran through the troubleshooting guide in the manual and established that there were no problems with contactors and supply voltages to the VFD. Following on from a previous thread on this forum, implicating the speed control signal to the VFD, things got interesting. If I pushed on the three blue relays on the control PCB I could get the spindle to run, let go and the spindle stopped. Modulate the push force and the spindle speed changed in sympathy. I had already found a bad crimp on one of the wires going into the control board, so I remade that crimp, and those for the speed control wires. Although the spindle now ran most times, pushing on the control board PCB would stop it.

This indicated a problem with the PCB itself. I disconnected all the wires and took the PCB out. Bingo, the solder on one of the connector pins for the speed control signal was dull and pitted, a classic dry joint. Elsewhere on the PCB, but still associated with the speed control signal, there was some evidence of a hair, or similar, having been on the PCB during part of the manufacturing process. I've seen this before, on PCBs I've had manufactured for work, and it can lead to open and intermittent tracks. I repaired both areas and refitted the PCB.

The spindle ran all day yesterday, with regular sequences of 10 spindle on/off cycles and poking the control PCB. The spindle ran flawlessly throughout.

Fingers crossed repairing the control PCB has sorted the problem.

Regards,

Andrew

[handlewanker]

So much for a high end brand name that can't QC their products.

If this had been a cheap Chinese import.....you only get what you pay for.....Hmmmm.
Ian.

[philbur]

Did you not realise that the Tormach is a cheap Chinese import! Chinese prices with high quality support seems to be a winning combination, wouldn't you agree?

Phil

So much for a high end brand name that can't QC their products.

If this had been a cheap Chinese import.....you only get what you pay for.....Hmmmm.
Ian.

[tbaker2500]

So much for a high end brand name that can't QC their products.

If this had been a cheap Chinese import.....you only get what you pay for.....Hmmmm.
Ian.

So Ian, is this your MO? Come in and dump on products you don't own?

[David Bord]

Andrew, nice troubleshooting! Must feel good to be able to track something like that down and fix it.

David

[eltejano]

Automotive PCM modules suffer from intermittent connections all the time. On the top of the list, to my knowledge, is the Jeep Grand Cherokee. I have had to tear apart and reflow all solder joints on Jeep PCMs when mechanics exhausted all options. This fixed them 100 percent of the time. Other makers such as BMW suffer this problem with their ABS modules. Many other auto models have the same problems, these are the ones I am very familiar with.

Problems with insufficient soldered joints is something that cannot be avoided 100 % anywhere. I have seen these problems on TVs, laptops, new and old, radios, you name it, I used to help my uncle fix electronics in my younger times. I also used to solder components onto boards with RCA in Juarez, MX when I was a kid. These thing happen. WAY too many solder joints to catch them all, even after they have been tested because the most elusive are the cold solder joints that are intermittent. And take into account having to use lead free solder and it makes matters worse.

SO handlkewanker, not fair to come in here and just dump on the Tormach over that. I am sure if Tormach is made aware of this, they will remedy the problem, they seem to be very preoccupied with quality and upholding the excellent reputation I have seen thus far. Plus I dont see too many posts about this problem. Most TOrmach problem posts dont seem to be wide spread.

[TiagoSantos]

Guys,

[handlewanker]

Well, not being a Tormach user or even having seen one in the flesh, I only commented to say that you'd expect to have a bit more quality for the price, otherwise you might just as well go buy a cheapie and also have to pull it apart to fix all the odds and blobs that by Murphy's reckoning will definitely go out of wack.

The difference is that the mechanicals probably fare a lot better than the electronics in the reliability game, probably not all that 100% reliable, as there will always be someone in the finance department who scores big by promoting a dollar saved is a dollar earned principle at all costs etc, and will replace SKF bearings with cheap no name Chinese "specials".

I'm not knocking the Chinese imports......bought too many of their products to criticise them harshly, but with a machine like the Tormach's price I'd EXPECT, no I'd demand that the build quality is A1, best of design, no compromise etc etc, whatever, especially as has now been revealed the Tormach is a Chinese build, and not all that cheap either.

It doesn't go down well with the natives if you apply a save a dollar wherever policy just because money is more important than the product name....that's pure heresy.......you buy the name because the product has proven integrity, and that means you don't have to get a design drawing to find out how the spindle bearing layout is made just because you can't trust the suppliers to put quality items in the build where they are definitely, and without compromise, needed.

Who would buy a machine tool that has a spindle design that uses deep row radial ball races in place of angular contact bearings as part of a competitive drive to cost cutting?

Spoiling the ship for a ha'poth of tar has been an all too common practice in the "economicals" and it seems it's also creeping into the higher end builds too.

The electronics industry can only now function if it's automated and pushed out with a failure rate that is acceptable for the price, and having such a percentage of failures present in any place at any time means the confidence for A1 products is declining proportionately.

Imagine driving your car down a freeway at 100K without knowing that the steering is only connected to the front wheels by a wireless stepper motor drive due to the manufacturers accepting that their products could have a failure rate that is as little as 5% at any time and the savings for assembly put them in the forefront of supply and demand which the public have come to expect from the brand name.

Now that it has been highlighted that Tormach are a Chinese manufacture, who would have guessed otherwise....the Chinese are very capable of making quality items, and the bottom line just determines who cuts corners and at what rate.

A typical example of the electronics failure syndrome is the cheap Chinese made routers on EBAY with the "economical" $50 controllers as opposed to a Gecko G540 costing $300+.

Nobody faults the build quality of the mechanicals (for the price), but practically everyone has troubles getting the things to function with the supplied controllers, and there are many and various quick and not so quick fixes to make a $50 controller work like a Gecko drive.....hasn't happened yet.
Ian.

[handlewanker]

Philbur,......LOL.....I just had to re-read the afore mentioned posts to get the context......."a cheap Chinese import with a high quality support".....this has got to be like a family doctor following you around with a resuscitation device because the cheap medicine he prescribes is liable to send you into a coma at any moment....LOL.

You mean the Tormach line is cheap (your definition) but the support is beyond belief (while the warranty lasts).....they need it that bad?

Definitely would pay to be an electro service technician for Tormach....world wide travel etc......all you'd need would be a box of circuit boards (one must work eventually) and a screw driver.

At $8,500 + for the basic 1100 machine I would want more than a hovering in the wings back up service to keep the machine running, perhaps a box of spare circuit boards (one must work eventually) supplied with each machine, seeing as how the circuit boards are a bit iffy, then you could send the rest back for replacements at your leisure and let Tormach scratch their heads to trouble shooting the faulty boards.

However if it failed in the mechanical department....(it's only a cheap machine with an awesome back up service)......as long as the warranty lasts you're OK.
Ian.

[bjones]

What's the matter wanker, not enough people to argue with in the climate change thread so you have to branch out and stir your crap in other threads? why don't you start a blog so the world can enjoy your special genius.

[tbaker2500]

Okay. Got it. Troll. Is there any way to block seeing a user on this forum?

[nitewatchman]

I think that you can click on the username, and then click on "View Profile". Scroll down and click on "Add to Ignore List".

I think that this will add the user to your ignore list, never had a need to use it before so I am not sure.

Yep, just tried it and the text of the users posts don't show up at all but there is a banner that says it has been hidden.

nitewatchman

[nitewatchman]

BTW - Cool catch and fix on the spindle problem. I would have been elbows deep in the drive.

Seems like sometimes after I finish "fixing" something it then has to be repaired or replaced. I hate it when that happens.

nitewatchman

[tbaker2500]

Thanks, ignore works well.

[handlewanker]

You can always just ignore the post and talk amongst yourselves......LOL.

[Peter Neill]

PMSL here - I guess the Trolls screen name is only recognised by Brits and Aussies?
Quite appropriate I think, you other guys should look it up

[philbur]

Well, not being a Tormach user or even having seen one in the flesh.

Pretty much sums up the value to be attributed to this member's posts.

I only commented to say that you'd expect to have a bit more quality for the price, otherwise you might just as well go buy a cheapie and also have to pull it apart to fix all the odds and blobs that by Murphy's reckoning will definitely go out of wack.

So which comparable cheapie would you buy and at what price?

Phil

[nitewatchman]

PMSL here - I guess the Trolls screen name is only recognised by Brits and Aussies?
Quite appropriate I think, you other guys should look it up

It wasn't lost on me either, and to think I initially thought that it applied to the handle on a mill or a lathe.

nitewatchman

[handlewanker]

LOL, oh come now fellers, we all know that all the current machinery is made in the same factory but with different badges added for effect.....you didn't know???....naughty me for blowing the whistle.

How can you ask me to recommend a cheapie when they're all cheapies, only some are cheaper than others.

You only have to look at the basic design features then ask yourself......"Is this the way I would build a mill/lathe, whatever, if I had the capabilities to list the preferences"?
Ian.

[philbur]

How can you ask me to recommend a cheapie when they're all cheapies, only some are cheaper than others.

So it should be easy for you. Which comparable cheapie would you buy and at what price?

Phil