[lew90nicis]

Hi guys!

I've came to the conclusion in the past few weeks that I require a better more accurate and rigid milling machine. I do a lot of milling of aluminium and steel. I use fixture plates as I am required to flip work pieces on there side, I also do a lot of 3d machining. My miniture chinese benchtop mill that I converted to cnc is really starting to struggle and just isn't accurate enough.

Somebody I know recommened warco to me, which i think is the british equivelent of grizzly. I have found two machines that I'm intested in. I am no expect on milling machines and was was hoping somebody could tell me the difference between these two machines and which is better. I will be converting them to cnc similar to the hoss conversion. Any advise would be very helpful.

Warco WM-18 Milling Machine - Quality Metal Working Mill

Warco GH Universal Milling Drilling Machine - Quality Machine Tools

Kind Regards,

John

[hanermo]

Both are std chicom mills from a well known decent supplier.
Both supply a decent taper ie MT3/R8 in a very light weight package 220/320 kg.

Both will work ... as to how good what are your expectations.
You are NOT going to be putting out full depth cuts with either one at full speed 2 HP power levels in steel with either one. But then again, with cnc, you dont need to.

Also, cnc conversions vary greatly. Everyhitng from 1 micron real world resolution to whatever.

What are your needs ? (In steel).
The limits on both are going to be MRR or Material Removal Rates. Working within the limits of the rigidity of the machines, both can do good work.
More rigid is better. Heavier is more rigid and vibrates less.
A very good Bp M-head is 900 kg for 3/4 Hp, and can fully utilise that.
A very good BP Series 2 at 1400 kg with R8 is 3 Hp and can fully utilise that. Forget about it on a 320 kg desktop minimill.

So it depends. You have not supplied at relevant information.
Also, milling a lot is relative.
10 kg of swarf per day. 50 kg. 100 kg ?

Deep cavities, like 80 mm deep pockets in steel, and bottom surface quality is important ? Or not ?
So You see it depends.

[lew90nicis]

Hi hanermo, thanks for the reply.

I will probably be running the machine about 30 hours/week on average. The issue I have with my machine now is when I machine a pocket, the bottom of the pocket isn't very level if I was to dti it. At the moment I am making 2 mm cuts max with a 6mm flat end mill at about 180mm/mm and half that on steel. Also The spindle hasn't got enough torque to machine with anything bigger than 8mm.

For example what sort of feed/speed and depth of cuts could I use with a 12mm flat mill on these machines, could I perform face milling operations with 40mm face mill or fly mill and how level would the face be? Also what sort of surface finish could I expect?

Would I get chatter when drilling, what would the vibration of the head be like on the bigger 320kg miller?

The bottom surface on pocket is fairly important, as this is the main problem I have now.
Which machine is the better one out of these too machines? Is it necessarily the more expensive one?

You mentioned the cnc conversion vary greatly.. What is the reason for this? Would you recomened changing the screws to ballscrews, and if so where is the best place to buy them for the best ones? I have appox. 400£ to spend on the screws.

Any thanks in advance.

[lew90nicis]

180mm/min I meant

[DareBee]

according to the specs the GH is bigger, heavier and has more torque

[wizard]

Hi guys!

I've came to the conclusion in the past few weeks that I require a better more accurate and rigid milling machine. I do a lot of milling of aluminium and steel. I use fixture plates as I am required to flip work pieces on there side, I also do a lot of 3d machining. My miniture chinese benchtop mill that I converted to cnc is really starting to struggle and just isn't accurate enough.

Based on this and your follow up post below I think you need a far more capable machine. Most likely in the large Tormach machine class. Even then the Tormach might be a little light duty, consider instead something like a HASS mini mill.

Somebody I know recommened warco to me, which i think is the british equivelent of grizzly. I have found two machines that I'm intested in. I am no expect on milling machines and was was hoping somebody could tell me the difference between these two machines and which is better. I will be converting them to cnc similar to the hoss conversion. Any advise would be very helpful.

For the work loads you suggested I'd seriously consider a more professional mill. One that is ready to go CNC wise. You are basically describing a usage where the machine is fully used for one shift of production. A larger mill will hold up better and might significantly lower your production time.

Warco WM-18 Milling Machine - Quality Metal Working Mill

For CNC work skip mills with Morse tapers.

Warco GH Universal Milling Drilling Machine - Quality Machine Tools

Possibly OK but you need to consider viability for Aluminum machining.

Kind Regards,

John

[DareBee]

True what wizard says. With a 4th axis and toolchanger you could likely turn your 30hrs micro machine time into about 6

[wizard]

Hi hanermo, thanks for the reply.

I will probably be running the machine about 30 hours/week on average. The issue I have with my machine now is when I machine a pocket, the bottom of the pocket isn't very level if I was to dti it. At the moment I am making 2 mm cuts max with a 6mm flat end mill at about 180mm/mm and half that on steel. Also The spindle hasn't got enough torque to machine with anything bigger than 8mm.

That is pretty pathetic compared to what is possible.

For example what sort of feed/speed and depth of cuts could I use with a 12mm flat mill on these machines, could I perform face milling operations with 40mm face mill or fly mill and how level would the face be? Also what sort of surface finish could I expect?

Everything above is dependent on many interrelated factors. Machine stiffness, spindle speed and power, tooling type and other factors come into play.

Would I get chatter when drilling, what would the vibration of the head be like on the bigger 320kg miller?

Again it depends. Tooling comes into play but so does your ability to tune and maintain the machine.

The bottom surface on pocket is fairly important, as this is the main problem I have now.
Which machine is the better one out of these too machines? Is it necessarily the more expensive one?

Honestly I would not go for either one. Especially considering your work load as neither machine will likely have a major impact you production capacity. The bigger machine may give you better results or it may not, it depends upon the quality of the machine for one.

You mentioned the cnc conversion vary greatly.. What is the reason for this?

There are so many reasons that impact conversion quality that I will only hit on a few.

1. The quality of the machine tools themselves vary a lot.
2. The workmanship is highly variable.
3. Poorly chosen electrical components.
4. Like wise poorly selected mechanical parts.
5. Poor spindles in the low end machines.
6. Often the wrong machine is selected for the job at hand.

Would you recomened changing the screws to ballscrews, and if so where is the best place to buy them for the best ones? I have appox. 400£ to spend on the screws.

I think you need a new budget. However defining the phrase the best ones might help. A really good ground ball screw, with a set of suitable bearings, would cost you more that $400 each. Much more in fact.

Any thanks in advance.

I suspect you are hell bent on building a machine that won't be much better than the one you have now. You should seriously consider a used commercial mill or a new commercial mill. I would avoid an expensive detour building another mill that likely won't suit your needs much better.

[handlewanker]

Hi, any, as in ANY ANY ANY...... manual mill conversion for semi serious work is without any doubt a hobby plaything and a total waste of resources (and time) when the equivalent off the shelf dedicated CNC mill can be bought and used for probably less than the new acquisition and build package.

Consider the fact......what can you get for US$6,000 and expect it to do serious work?

If you are short of cash and the Warco solution gets you all excited........asking our opinion is therefore a waste of time and effort in posting.

If you haven't made enough money (or are actually making money) to think of upgrading, even though you have a need for it, the new "any old thing" mill will just be a way of passing the time while you have fun.

Also, if the mill you presently are using was in the beginning performing reasonably well but has deteriorated through wear and tear, probably mainly in the Acme threaded bronze nut area, then it would pay you to refurbish the mill with at least the cheapest ball screws you can find, which will be heaps better than the Acme type you might be using now.

This, providing the rest of the mill is OK, like spindle bearings.....just a couple of ballraces to replace etc,....or the slideways to be refitted....some clean out and hand work etc........ will breathe a new lease of life and help you to make some money to at least upgrade to a Tormach 770 at the very least....a shade over US$6,000 on the Richter scale....LOL.

Why a Tormach?

Well for a start it has pedigree and that means an R8 collet and drawbar, making it at least suitable for TTS type generic parallel shank tools that can be bought on EBAY and allow you to fit a QCT system as a DIY project later.

By doing so you will be able to rapidly make some money and upgrade to the 1100 model.

Coming down to Earth, you can't make a silk purse out of a Wellington boot, even if it's brand new.....LOL......even though you could attach it to a piece of string and wear it round your waist and fill it with all your money.....it would look odd.

I once heard of a guy who used a pair of Wellies as saddle bags on his mini bike......very ingenious.
Ian.

[arizonavideo]

The Warco WM-18 is a Weiss 30 or a PM-30 or BF-30.

I have the Weiss and also a G0704 and a IH CNC mill. The GH is a RF-45 clone.

You can read some of the conversions done here with the PM-30 and all have been happy with the mill. The Weiss I have is a fine mill and will cut steel well and often leaves a better finish than the IH mill. If you have a X2 or the like the 30 is a huge step up. It is really the best hobby mill for most people if you don't need the power of the 2HP RF-45 or want to save money and get the G704/ BF-20 mill. The motor is not too strong so someday you will want to put on a 2HP 56C AC motor and a VFD if you run it all day. I do light stuff with mine and second ops if I have a setup on the IH mill. I do stall it sometimes with a 2.5" face-mill if I forget I'm using the smaller mill and go for the deeper cuts.

The real problem with the RF-45 clone is the slow spindle speed. It is 1800 RPM and if you use smaller bits you will want to get a 3600 RPM motor or a belt drive fairly fast.

You have 1.2" under the table for a ball nut with the Weiss 30 so you can get most ball nuts to fit and only have to cut the flange. You will have about $3000 in to a CNC Weiss 30 (mill and CNC parts) if you do it all yourself.

The RF-45 is about 700 pounds and the 30 is about 450. In many ways the 45 is in another class as far as size. It is just bigger. The fit and finish on the Weiss I have is really nice, best of any of the China mills so far. The noise from the RF-45 gear case can be really loud in high and they make a lot of heat. You can mill with the 30 and still hear the radio sometimes.

The larger Tormach is a great way to go but when you drop 10k you can spend a few more and get a good used VMC or a TRAKE or RB bed mill.

Hope that helps some.

Dave

[lew90nicis]

Thanks for the responses guys.
I would love a tormach but I live in the uk, so the import tax alone would probably be about 1200£ then I think the p&p is the best part of 500£ so I'd be looking at the best part of 8000£ all in all. Which is a bit of a jump from a 1600£ milling machine + ball screws and fabrication. I already have the steppers and drives. So wouldn't need to buy them. As for a haas vmc I'd need to remortgage my house to afford one of them, even a second hand one.

If I was to pose one last question.. What would you guys say would be the best milling machine to convert to cnc for say less than around 1600£? Has anybody spent this sort of money on a miller and converted it and had a lot of success and can share their story and some info on their machine capabilities?

Thank you again for all the feedback it's very useful and kind.

John.

[handlewanker]

Wow, that's a tough decision to make.....converting a mill from an unideal basis to get to CNC....just my opinion.

I suppose a mill is a mill in the end and what you want to do with it.

Best of British old sport, at least you'll be getting heaps of previous build info, maybe some "spare parts" from people upgrading their mills too.
Ian.

[neilw20]

At least we live in a part of the empire that import tax and shipping costs are not too bad, but the ripoff port charges and customs clearance sucks.