[Zenji]

What do you think?

I'm a tradesman for 20 years now, I've had Cad Cam jobs before.
Now I'm finding engineers are now getting the Cad Cam jobs.
Machinists are being treated like trained monkeys and working for rates that don't class as those of a tradesman.
All of our craftsmanship is being ruined by the 1 programmer / 10 machine setter type situation.

'Leave your brain at the door, we are in charge now!'

Maybe the trade will become the home user scene?

It seems that is only way to get 'hit' of creativity and satisfaction that the trade used to once give.

[Kpt Steyn]

As a tool and die maker, I don't believe that the machinist trade will ever die. It will be less in demand, but mechanical engineering can't do without it.

Try to train a engineer to set and machine something on a CNC, when he has no machining background... there is things in the trade that you cannot learn from a book, but only by experience.

Secondly, it is sometimes easier and necessarily to manually machine a difficult part.

The engineering world can never do without machinist!!!

To all the machinist tradesman, start learning CAD. it's for your own benefit.

[mbirrell]

There is no substitute for someone that can understand the way tools work, Machinists that understand how to use a CAM program will always have a job. Come on all you have the brains to learn it. It isn't that hard.

[Kpt Steyn]

To all the young artisans. If you want to learn to program and operate CNC's , my suggestion would be to get experience in manual machining on turning before studying CAD and CAM. You will grasp the basics much better and faster. It will also make learning the CAD and CAM faster and easier.

I speak from experience, I saw guys come in with programing certificates who didn't even know what a hydraulic vice is. SCARY!!! (But they can program).
You cannot run before you learned how to walk.

[RJAZE]

In my area I still see ads for skilled manual machinists. For one or two simple parts by the time the programming is done and tool heights set a good manual guy will have them done.

[glovebox20]

The machinist trade will never die! However it will change.

With the advances with technology, it allows the machinist to complete more work in a shorter amount of time. However, if he/she relies on technology to get the job done instead of 'common sense', technology will become a crutch. Technology is useless with imagination! They are CAM programs that clam they can program the whole part automatically. But I will always feel I can write a more program efficient manually because the CAM system will never have enough logic to image all the different possibilities to get the job done. Then there is the old guys who's been there and done that before CNC were common place. There knowledge will always be appreciated. To this day, I still can't imagine all the war machines that they built for WWII, and they didn't have the fancy machines that they have now to do it with. I wonder what it would take in todays terms to get the job done. This will always amaze me. I just hope that I will always have the common sense instilled in me so technology will it be a useful tool for me to use, and not a roadblock.


One thing is for dang sure, if you are relying on someone to sit down and use cam programs all day and not get there hands dirty, machine productivity will suffer, especially if they don't take things into considerations.... Like operator input. I hate it when I plead to the CAM guy to change the programs to make it better, and all I hear is 'there is nothing wrong with it'. Fine then, I'll do it myself, at the machine control.

One thing that really bothers me, is some people at my shop think I don't work hard cause I stare at the machine control all day and punch buttons to get my job done instead of spinning handles and getting covered in hot chips. But then they have this part that requires a 3d surface and a goofy contour or some weird thing, and there like 'how were we going to get this done?'. That's when I show up.

[underthetire]

I don't think cad cam is hurting at all, but... 3d printing will put a big hurt on the machining trade. You can build a mold overnight that used to take a couple weeks, and can make repair sections for damaged molds. They also print stuff that could never be machined.

[NantachieRat]

Amen brother!
I just completed a two-year course in electronics & computers, and I saw first-hand how inept most of these youngins are. I don't mean anything bad towards them, but they are just absolutely unprepared to deal with the real world. They have very little real ability to use computers other than play video games, and they are barely able to build and troubleshoot an actual circuit. The State of Louisiana Board of Regents is even worse. They had the bright idea to eliminate all of the trade programs at the Vo-Tech schools.

I took the Machinist course back in 1990-91 and graduated with high scores, but as a 21-year-old I had no idea that the great exodus to China had already begun, so I never really had a chance to work until last year when I got the job I have now. It is the perfect mix of electronics and machinist skills.
I have some ancient books (1960's era… guys with crew cuts, skinny ties, white shirts, horn rimmed glasses, and pocket protectors.) that get down to the most basic fundamentals of computers.

The first element in a program is called an algorithm. This is a list of logical steps that need to be performed by the computer to accomplish an objective. Algorithms are also a logical sequence of steps to perform the calculations involved in controlling the machine’s servo motors. It is not unlike the thought process that goes into setting up an engine lathe, mill, or an old Warner Swasey turret lathe and then shifting the gear boxes and cranking the hand wheels and setting the stops. The only real difference is a microprocessor is given a list of instructions and parameters to make the part or parts.

Therefore, let it be established that basic machinist skills are never going to go away. The physical act of cutting metal on an antique lathe running on a line shaft in the ceiling of the shop is no different than cutting metal on the latest state of the art CNC machines.

I am the self-appointed tool and die maker at my shop, and I have been using a good ol’ fashioned engine lathe with a four-jaw chuck all week to make 16C collet stop plugs, adjusting screws, and lock nuts to run parts on a Mazak CNC lathe. I was turning 3/8” 316L bar down to 5/16” .002” under and nothing over 5 5/16” long. I had hellatious problems with chatter and after going through the usual chatter monkeyshines, I found that my stop assy. Was way too long and out of balance. I made a new one just barely long enough to accept the blank and went from a 7/16 – NF adjusting screw to a 5/8 – 18 NF and drilled a 3/8” hole in it to minimize the length. I put a virgin grade 8 nut on it and coated everything with some never seize. I also played around with the depth of cut and the center hole size. This cast the chatter demon into outer darkness for ever and ever!!

DON’T GIVE ME ANY CRAP ABOUT “OBSOLETE” SKILLS AND MACHINES.

David D. Poston May 24th, 2013

[NantachieRat]

The machinist trade will never die! However it will change.

With the advances with technology, it allows the machinist to complete more work in a shorter amount of time. However, if he/she relies on technology to get the job done instead of 'common sense', technology will become a crutch. Technology is useless with imagination! They are CAM programs that clam they can program the whole part automatically. But I will always feel I can write a more program efficient manually because the CAM system will never have enough logic to image all the different possibilities to get the job done. Then there is the old guys who's been there and done that before CNC were common place. There knowledge will always be appreciated. To this day, I still can't imagine all the war machines that they built for WWII, and they didn't have the fancy machines that they have now to do it with. I wonder what it would take in todays terms to get the job done. This will always amaze me. I just hope that I will always have the common sense instilled in me so technology will it be a useful tool for me to use, and not a roadblock.


One thing is for dang sure, if you are relying on someone to sit down and use cam programs all day and not get there hands dirty, machine productivity will suffer, especially if they don't take things into considerations.... Like operator input. I hate it when I plead to the CAM guy to change the programs to make it better, and all I hear is 'there is nothing wrong with it'. Fine then, I'll do it myself, at the machine control.

One thing that really bothers me, is some people at my shop think I don't work hard cause I stare at the machine control all day and punch buttons to get my job done instead of spinning handles and getting covered in hot chips. But then they have this part that requires a 3d surface and a goofy contour or some weird thing, and there like 'how were we going to get this done?'. That's when I show up.

I guess I am very lucky, There is only two of us at my shop, me and the owner. He is teaching me how to program and it takes every bit of basic machnist skill I can muster to be able to understand what I want the machine to do. ( the algorithm) If I had to deal with the CAM guy you have to deal with.....I would tell him to get his little yuppy ass out there and run those damn parts himself!! My boss and I feel that the machine control is the best way to tweek a program. The CAM program in the office is good, it has it's place. However, the parts are made at the machine, not the computer in the office.

Ask your CAM guy to explain what an algorithm is... I'd like to know what he has to say!

[glovebox20]

I guess I am very lucky, There is only two of us at my shop, me and the owner. He is teaching me how to program and it takes every bit of basic machnist skill I can muster to be able to understand what I want the machine to do. ( the algorithm) If I had to deal with the CAM guy you have to deal with.....I would tell him to get his little yuppy ass out there and run those damn parts himself!! My boss and I feel that the machine control is the best way to tweek a program. The CAM program in the office is good, it has it's place. However, the parts are made at the machine, not the computer in the office.

Ask your CAM guy to explain what an algorithm is... I'd like to know what he has to say!

Fortunately, I am the CAM guy now. But I still setup and operate the machines every day while I'm at work, so I haven't lost my roots yet. Yes, A good manual guy can still beat me, but' I'm not interested in making a square plate with a couple of holes in it. However, I still can't order my own tooling. So I have to listen to someone else who sit at a desk all day tell me why 'Tool A' is better than 'Tool B'. Grr!!

[NantachieRat]

What do you think they would say about you making your own special tooling? I feel the real advantage of manual machines is they can be used to make very high quality special tooling for use on CNC machines to improve productivity and consistency. My boss was really giving me the stink eye last week over me pulling the collet out of the Mazak and reworking the stop assembly. However, when he realized I had solved a problem with chatter he’d had for years he was very impressed.
I have found that the key to getting a stop collet (16C is what we use) to not cause chatter is it has to be well balanced, which means it has to be well made. I find all of my material for these things in the scrap bins; we have one for 300 and another for 400 series stainless steel. 416 SS and 4140 are the main two materials I use, and from what I have seen they make better tooling than can be bought.
Maybe you could get them out in the shop for a demonstration of why ‘tool A’ is better than ‘Tool B’.

[jimdakotart]

The advances in tooling has aided the machinist, when I started full time as a machinist back in '89 the tooling was really coming up to the strengths of the cnc's. Today with the machines, controls, software, have leaped like a decade in a few short years. But the hardest part to making a complex part is the shop's environment, machinist, and what the company assets are. The best machine is only as good as the guys hand at the controls. But the tools applied to make the part is the biggest aide or crutch to success or failure. Some shops allow access to tools to make the machines run great, as where the past 15 years the environments I have worked were structured with layers like programmer, manufacturing engineers, process engineers, tooling engineers. But some shops are pro active, getting the tool books on the floor, tool reps talking to key people. Some of the biggest assets today are the new people who enter these work environments from other environments. We bring tools tried, tested, and exhibit the new employer you care, want to take a positive role. Some embrace it, while others don't care for your input, and want more of "Operators". So as you look at the environments, employers, skill set, and now these environments, we can find more suitable places to call "Home".

[gerald wubs]

Most CNC machines are "cutting" the stock. As a machinist, we have the edge of understanding the action occuring at the tool. Many NC guys know only how to setup and run a job, but they don't go far at trouble shooting. We used to routinely run jobs in tough material, deep holes & etc on a dinky Haas VF2 that had the sales people repping heavy Japanese machines raising their eyebrows into their receding hairlines. The reason we were able to do these jobs was beacause we were machinists who were capable of setting the job on a maual machine, and had lots of experience in pushing things beyond the text book limitations. All you need to do is consider that a rookie has heavy chatter on a 1" dia. boring bar stuck out 2" and the master machinist is making sweet music with that same bar stuck out 7 or 8 inches. The experienced guy is not running the same cutting edge, and that's the difference. He knows all the tricks to make that hard job work, the programmer/operator often does not.

[Kpt Steyn]

Well said.:cheers:

[br1]

I believe machine programmers should be qualified machinists.

[glovebox20]

I believe machine programmers should be qualified machinists.

Like!!

[christinandavid]

To all operators of CAM software, if anything at least run the operations and method by someone on the shopfloor who can give suggestions to make everyones life easier, before investing so much time in virtual creation you find it impossible to backtrack. Simple part geometry does not equal a simple job and there is a lot more to getting a job in spec than simply having a model from which a program can be autogenerated.

DP

[Beto86]

Machinist are the ones that actually move the cnc machine not the program.

[moriboy1]

I think this question could apply to many industries...

For example:
Is a true stick and rudder pilot from Ww2 better or worse than a modern fighter jet pilot?
Is an auto mechanic from the 1920's better than a current ASME certified one that works on hi tech vehicles?

The point is we get really good at what technology is around during our time, but it eventually passes us up. I grew up in a machine shop and have seen the transition from an all manual shop to an all cnc shop. We used to have some really great manual machinists. Can one of our young guys jump on an engine lathe and successfully thread a part? Nope. Can the same guy draw, program, setup, and make the same conforming part on a cnc lathe? Yep.

[Bill3D]

I am a mechanical engineer by degree and machinist. The engineer is now trained in CAD/CAM to some extent but often fall short on the mechanical drawing and too reliant on the CAM software. Where a more intimate knowledge of feeds/speeds would help get more out of the machine and expectations of tolerances and ability to express them would greatly improve the cost of the part. I've done things on a 2-axis prototrak that some of these guys claimed had to be done on a five axis. So you would expect them to produce much better output if they knew how much they could do with less machine and a little more thinking.