[mactec54]

CNCMAN172

If widgitmaster has used shielded cable, for the control wires & the shield has been correctly done/Grounded, the ferrite core filters/chokes will make no difference at all, they will not hurt anything by having them, but are not needed if everything is wired correctly

[dodger889]

Just a dumb question how do you have the table grounded itself ??? To the shop ground or to a ground rod??? Use your volt meter on the lowest setting and check between all your components see if you any stray voltage running around.

[widgitmaster]

Just a dumb question how do you have the table grounded itself ??? To the shop ground or to a ground rod??? Use your volt meter on the lowest setting and check between all your components see if you any stray voltage running around.

There is a #12-AWG ground wire straight from the house's breaker box, that connects to all the boxes and the frame of the router! In fact, I spent all day adding additional grounds and grounding points! First I removed all circuit boards from the control box, then I drilled & tapped a bunch of holes for grounding screws! Then I covered the 220-VAC feed line to the inverter with metal braid, sealing one end with heat-shrink tubing, and pulling the wires through a hole in the braid. Then I slid on another piece of shrink tube, and looped the end through it. After heating it up, I cut the tail to length and added a crimp lug. Now it attaches to the grounding stud in the VFD box! Then I drilled & tapped two more holes in the back plate, so I could attach a ground wire to the screen covering the vent holes! The only thing left to shield is the 220-VAC supply lines, but the braided shield tube wont be here till tomorrow afternoon!

[dodger889]

You might want to use a separate grounding to a ground rod to make sure that you are to a true neutral ground (earth ground). This will help with emi.

[kuroguy]

Is dodger889 a ham?

[dodger889]

No just played with electronics for too many years. But all of those guys that do play with ham radios have shown the rest of us a few things over the years.

[widgitmaster]

Question?
The VFD inverter manual does not specify where the three wires connect to the spindle motor; however, I do know it is important to have the correct phase sequence of any other 3-phase motors! So do I need to check the VFD's phase sequence?
Widgit

[Alan XR8]

Just connect it up and if it spins the wrong way just swap two wires around.


Alan

[kuroguy]

alan is right. reversing a pair of wires will just make it spin backwards.

[widgitmaster]

Excellent! It starts in Clockwise direction now, so there is nothing to fix!
Thanks guys!
Widgit

[CNCMAN172]

Wigit,
As others said reversing any two wires to correct the rotation is all that is required. You are clearly having EMI interference issues, as I have been in this camp myself several times. I have the same VFD as you and I used double shielded certified cable for the spindle and still had the same issues. I hate to disagree with Mactec54 but shielding alone often will not address these issues. I have been an electrical engineer for 33 years and they don't make EMI ferrite cores just for the fun of it. They are made for a reason, they get used in commercial CNC machines as well. Open up the control box on a Thermwood, Multicam, Haas, etc and you will find these in use. Especially on the control cables to servo drives or stepper drives. If you have a USB cable connecting the breakout box to the computer loop the USB cable through a core, trust me you will see a difference instantly. He is a shot of front of my computer two USB cables, one to a VFD like yours using Modcell control, and the other to a Yaskawa pendant. If either one was plugged it machine would stop working as soon as I turned on the spindle and I could not control anything. This is a very quick test and I think you will be surprised with the results. It is import to ensure you are grounding shields on one end, and avoiding ground loops but I watched you entire build and you followed best procedures the entire way so I do not believe that is your issue. Just my two cents.

Attachment 224790
Attachment 224792

Russ

[mactec54]

Wigit,
As others said reversing any two wires to correct the rotation is all that is required. You are clearly having EMI interference issues, as I have been in this camp myself several times. I have the same VFD as you and I used double shielded certified cable for the spindle and still had the same issues. I hate to disagree with Mactec54 but shielding alone often will not address these issues. I have been an electrical engineer for 33 years and they don't make EMI ferrite cores just for the fun of it. They are made for a reason, they get used in commercial CNC machines as well. Open up the control box on a Thermwood, Multicam, Haas, etc and you will find these in use. Especially on the control cables to servo drives or stepper drives. If you have a USB cable connecting the breakout box to the computer loop the USB cable through a core, trust me you will see a difference instantly. He is a shot of front of my computer two USB cables, one to a VFD like yours using Modcell control, and the other to a Yaskawa pendant. If either one was plugged it machine would stop working as soon as I turned on the spindle and I could not control anything. This is a very quick test and I think you will be surprised with the results. practice, and avoiding ground loops but I watched you entire build and you followed best procedures the entire way so I do not believe that is your issue. Just my two cents.

Some good points, but for someone that has spent 33years as a Electricical Engineer, you are saying the wrong, things, the machines you mentioned (Open up the control box on a Thermwood, Multicam, Haas)

Were you see these in use ( EMI ferrite cores) in these machines, & many others, is were they have used straight wire's with no shielding, this is a common practice

A lot of computer cables already come with the suppressors on them, even some cameras have/need them

The photos you have just shown, the install has been very badly done!!! the VFD should never be mounted like is, this is why people have problems

Your install photo is a bad example of how not to install a VFD

As for shields Motor to VFD the shield is to be Grounded at Both Ends, All other Shields should be Grounded at (1) End at the source, & the shield tail should be as short as possible, or if not using a tail a copper saddle placed over the shield, the Grounding points need to be free of Paint Etc to get a metal to metal contact

[mactec54]

widgitmaster

Were ever you can twist the wires together, this will help, when you have regular un-shielded wires, even twist them & add the shield will make a big difference, all your shield tails terminate as short as possible

Your contactor will be a source for noise as well, & will need to add noise suppression to it

[CNCMAN172]

Mactec54, you are 100% correct on the ground on the spindle wire that must be at both ends. That grounds the metal housing which is not only a noise but a safety issue. On the comments on my setup you are also 100% correct, I did not have a $300 Hoffman enclosure when I first setup this machine and had all kinds of noise issues similar to what Wigit has right now. I had absolutely everything grounded, twisted wires, etc. and still was a no go. I moved the VFD away from all the other electronics and put it on a wall in desperation, and still had the same issues. Someone mentioned EMI cores, which I had not personally used in the type of electronics we build in our factory. I decided others found success so, purchased a few I tried them and was shocked the noise issue disappeared immediately. The point was my VFD is on a wall totally unshielded and it works perfect now. Agree clearly not a clean install or a picture brag about and hang on the wall. I recently got a Hoffman enclosure from ebay, well under the $300 pain mark, so everything will get moved off plywood boards to a nice enclosure. On the Fadal, Haas, and Bridgeport at work that have Yaskawa servo drives. The 34-pin control cables coming to these were shielded and they still looped the shielded cable through the large ferrite bead. I have Panasonic Servo drives and did not actually need to loop my control cable through beads, but my control cable was very short.

Wigit I think I recall you are using a Gecko G540 for your stepper drive, is that connected to the parallel port or is it connected to a smooth-stepper or some other pulse engine? I think you had some kind of breakout board but can't recall off the top of my head. Interesting that for some reason these Chinese VFDs and Spindles seem to generate more noise that others, based on the feedback on the zone. I also had a florescent light hanging over my table very close couple feet above and those are also very noisy. These noise issues are very frustrating and often difficult to track down, but you will learn a lot during this journey.

Russ

[CNCMAN172]

Interesting Video on EMI and Ferrite Beads

Basics of Ferrite Beads for Filters, EMI Suppression, Parasitic oscillation suppression / Tutorial - YouTube

[CNCMAN172]

Wigit,
Just looked at a previous picture of your machine, looks like you do have a smooth stepper or some other pulse engine plugged into your breakout card. That unit looks like it has a USB plug, so get a high quality USB cable with the Ferrite cord built in and see if all your issues don't disappear.

Russ

[bill south]

Cncman;
Great Video. Thanks.
Bill

Soon Widget! Real Soon!

[widgitmaster]

Wow, spend the day in the shop and the Zoner's take over the thread I'm glad to say that I've made much progress today, so here is the progress report

While waiting for the UPS delivery, I started a project in the lathe. Using a 2 1/4" diam brass bar, I turned up two pieces with a 2" diam knurl on them. Then I bandsawed them off and faced the opposite side to as close to 1.000" as possible. Then I put them in the mill, and drilled a 6mm diam blind hole in the side of each. Next I used a 3-jaw chuck in the vise to hold the parts, while I aligned a pin in the drilled hole. Next I drilled an intersecting hole, on the blind end of the 6mm hole. Now I can insert the coiled cable, so the two conductors exit through the small hole. Now I need to make a trip to ACE, to look for a 6mm brass setscrew or something equivalent. The setscrew will also intersect with the 6mm hole, pinching the cable tight. The conductors on the other end will be soldered to the brass. Then I soldered a right-angle 1/4" phone plug on the end of each cable.
Now I only need one Z-Setting plate, but it was just as easy to make two

[widgitmaster]

As planned, the UPS truck arrived at 3:30 PM. Now I have the shielding and 8-conductor shielded cables I ordered from McMaster. The 1st thin I did was to push a 1/2" alum tube inside the shielding, then I pushed the cable ends with the wire markers & ferrules inside the tube. After taping it up, I pulled the pipe and the wires through the shielding. Then I located the end of the tube with my fingers, and opened a hole in the shielding with needlenose pliers. Next I pulled the wires through the opening, and removed the tape and the pipe. Now I can heat shrink one end, and slide another piece of heat shrink over the finished end. The I looped the shielding back through and tightened the shielding under the heat shrink. When satisfied with the placement of the return end, I heated it up!

All that's left is to pull the shielded cable through the conduit, and attach the ends t the correct terminals. Then I cut the excess braid off and put a crimp eye on the end, and fastened it to the grounding stud in the corner of the VFD box. Next I removed the 220-VAC supply line from the fuse box, and repeated the shielding process. That's two more cable completely shielded & grounded!

With that finished, I pulled the 8-conductor shielded cables. One from the top box, the other from the larger gantry side box. Both new cables went into the control box, and will be attached to the 12-VAC power supply, the ice-cube relay, and the breakout board. But not today!

[widgitmaster]

Interesting Video on EMI and Ferrite Beads

Basics of Ferrite Beads for Filters, EMI Suppression, Parasitic oscillation suppression / Tutorial - YouTube

Oh how I wish I had a nice oscilloscope!