[sneurlax]

This newbie would greatly appreciate this community's collective wisdom. I have a great carpentry workshop with plenty of space and power to spare, but want to get starting in metalworking with a vertical CNC mill. I'm looking at two manufacturers / models in particular:

Charter Oaks Automation 4-Axis Option CNC Bed Mill
Complete 3-Axis or 4-Axis CNC Mill
~$13,000

CNC Masters 4-Axis Option CNC MAX Deluxe Package
CNC MAX ? CNC Machining & Machine, Milling Machines
~$10,500

As a mechanical systems engineer I design engines and weapons for a living, but I'd like to get into producing them myself mostly as a hobby. Although I already have a variety of appropriate CAD software (SolidWorks 2012, AutoCAD, etc.) and plenty of experience with woodworking tools and heavy machinery, I'm starting from nil in metalworking / machining / milling. That's why the CNC Masters deluxe package is enticing: it purportedly includes everything I need to start cutting right away, whereas the Charter Oaks setup is incredibly spacious and comes well-recommended.

For reference:

1) I'm working within a $30,000 budget, though I would not like to tap all of that at all until I both need to and feel confident enough in my abilities to take that level of financial risk.

2) I've chosen these models over, for example, a Tormach PCNC 1100. I also recognize that a ROBODRILL or Haas MINIMILL would more than suit my needs (my master machinist-mate friend highly recommended all things Haas,) but I can't / don't want to plunk down $30,000-$100,000 on a wonder-all as an entrant into machining.

3) If it can produce, for example, a working AR15 lower, I'll be satisfied with its specs. I'm not going to be pumping out AR15s, but at some point I would like to produce my own custom lower receiver designs (though I'll have to get a firearm manufacturing license beforehand) and would like the room to tinker around with firearms on a hobby level eventually. Most all mills should be capable of producing the engine components I'll be grinding out, so I'm not worried about those.

Thanks for reading! This one appreciates any wisdom you would be so generous as to offer.

[wizard]

It might help to better define your intentions. That is, is this a commercial venture or a hobby project?

Beyond that don't get wrapped up in somebodies silly marketing materials.

[daniellyall]

before you buy a machine think what is the biggest size you may wont to cut, do you wont something that can be used as a production machine.
if you will need a rotary table what is the biggest thing you will cut on it, will it fit on machine. and what power ratting it will be 110 or 240.

[maverickx50]

I'd look for an old used full sized mill on a full cast iron/steel base. Add cost or rebuild (re-work spindle bearing and re-scrape the V-Guides). Add a new 3 axis control system and still be under your 10 to 13K range. You;ll have a lot more machine with a heck of a lot more capability. that will hold tighter tolerances and last forever. Of course I'm an old old school guy but the stuff they build 25 years ago was made to hold up, stay stable, and is actually repairable. Only possible down side might motor control speed. I look at these 10K + table top mills and wonder just how much they can really do before the head bearings go out or the frame warps.

[sneurlax]

Maverick: I'd love to do that eventually, but I don't want to enter with a conversion project. Although I recognize that I would probably learn the most that way I want to have assurance in the accuracy of my millings and don't want to spend my sparse leave (military here) building the tool to build what I want to build.

That said, I've always wanted and will eventually take on a custom conversion project. Just not yet.

As to the earlier questions: this will be mostly a hobby application. It will be building systems that will be put to work, but in-house. Besides engine, turbine, and some flywheel work, I want it to be capable of the hobbyist gunsmithing that I will eventually want to pursue.

The largest item I will want to mill... Hmm. Well, that's why I really want to go with the Charter Oaks mill, but I don't know what tooling, vices, etc. (if any - probably not) it includes... Or even what I would need!

So there's a followup question: is there a basic set of tools, collets, ends, vices, clamps, etc., that a beginner will need alongside a naked machine? I honestly want to go with the larger setup for the freedom, but it's already $2,500 more expensive and lacks the accessories for "first-day cutting."

PS, I have 220V and can make the solid stands/tables needed.

[sneurlax]

Is the CNC MAX "deluxe package" really just "silly marketing," after all?

[maverickx50]

Suggestion #2: Go with what ever machine gives you the most Z axis adjustment. Based on what you said you want part mounting capability and control. A good swivel vice and a good angle vice is a place to start but each will eat up vertical space fast. With how your thinking of using this VMC get all the Z axis adjustment you can afford. Especially when you add a boring bar attachment or other specialty chucks or collets to the spindle you can guess what will happen.

[daniellyall]

have a look at Novakon

[arizonavideo]

All the CNC max stuff they CNC the quill which is a horrid idea. Don't get their stuff.

All the machines you looked at are hobby mills. I have a IH/ Charter Oak and two other smaller ones. I CNC the IH myself and had about 3K in the whole thing. If I was going to drop 30K I would get a smaller used HAAS or a RB/TRAKE mill. All can be had for less than 20K and are are in a different league by a factor of at least three.

Tormach is worth looking at for hobby level and you won't have any messing around to do. everyone likes them. The IH is good too but it has a lower spindle speed that needs to fixed before they really get going, I just happen to sell some of the high speed belt drives to fit the IH to get them to 6 or 7 K.

A HASS

Haas VF 2 CNC Mill Year 1994 | eBay

I almost forgot you might want to look at Davids mill with a took changer.

https://www.facebook.com/FadecEng

It should be the only smaller mill to be made in the USA.

Nice mill with a few post at the CNC zone of it too.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/genera..._umc-10_a.html