[Peleacios]

Hi all.

I'm sure there are a lot of reviews (actually I've read a lot on this forum) of lasers cutters, but would like to make a compilation of new info, as well as link to good reviews, so anyone who want to purchase a laser has some clear info to start considering the options.

In my case, I have a Full Spectrum 40W Hobby Deluxe.
I rarely used it, and it lasted not even two years.

In my opinion, there are a lot of better machines, but I can say that now that I have some knowledge, went thought a lot of issues that I didn't expected, and found that what I was worry about back then was actually not big deal at all... so then, I would not recommend FS and that is why I myself I'm checking on other companies to get a new machine instead of keep maintaining the one I have.

There are out there great and well known products from Epilog or Universal Laser, as well other EU companies as Gravograph or Trotec... but all of them are a big deal of money... so let's focus here on some mid range, not the 500$ laser you can find on Ebay, nor the 8000$ for a top small laser; something that a small shop of a hobbyist can afford.



So... Full Spectrum 40W Hobby Deluxe review:


MY SETUP
Model: 40W CO2 Deluxe Hobby Laser
How long I had it: about a couple of years
Did I replaced the tube?: No, but would be more than necessary. Actually, FS recommends even to replace also the power supply for that time span which costs the same price as a new tube.
Would you recommend it: Absolutely no


SUPPORT
Support is contradictory.
I never called them, but I know another user who used to phone call them, and he only got long waits but never a solution.
Email seems right, they are fast replying (considering different time zones), but it's not really useful either... most of the times the answer is asking to send back the entire machine which can be as expensive as the machine itself; if you can't afford it then they ask to send back the power supply, the control board, etc or directly tells you to buy a new one; but never got a real conversation where you explain what is wrong and they tells you what you can do test and hopefully solve it by yourself.
So you get a clearer idea, even for simple questions, the directions can get more messy that the trouble itself... When I insisted them on checking my problem instead of sending it back, a technician told me to remove the SMD chip of the controller board and solder a new one by hand, when the issue was that actually the wiring of a motor was connected in the wrong place (although I sent a picture of the board and the wiring)

Anyway, that depends of who attends you I guess, technicians comes a go.

So then, you can try the forum to get real practical support from other users... but sadly their forum is highly moderated (censored), that's not only my opinion, you can read about the same topic everywhere you check the company profile... the same way that their politics is harassing and even banning you and your machine from the forum and software updates... so although this is about the machine itself, you are better thinking about who you are going to deal with.

Something that simple like knowing the right temperature threshold for the water that cools the laser has been asked a tons of times in the forum, but still no simple plain answer (or it has been edited...) like keep it about 20ºC and never over 30ºC... instead you just get that their lasers works great in Las Vegas at local temperature with a bucket of water... whatever that means, you'll only find good words without real content.


HARDWARE
The machine itself is Chinese production, but FS makes the control hardware (retinaEngrave).

I've read a lot of complains on Chinese software, but in this case, hardware is the worst part:
The case is not bad, standard construction... but plate that hold the laser mount is somehow floating, so I added an extra piece to connect it to the main frame and make it more stable.
The the mirror holders are terrible and there is no way of getting a solid adjustment.
The lens holder is the worst of it, cheap (bad) alu milled work:
- the top mirror is not at 45º... they even provided it with a bit of tape to try to correct the angle.
- the enter for the laser beam is not centered, I had to mill it to the right because the beam was hitting it.
- the head is not fixed, so with time is slightly tuns, and you need to readjust... I ended up gluing it.
- the lens itself is not center either nor flat, so the final quality of the output is quite questionable.
You can try and try to adjust it, but there is hardware issue that can't be solved, so you better replace some parts and start over.

I've also read about a lot of amazing issues that I luckily didn't experienced, including bad alignment of the frame, resulting in weird deformations of the cut/engrave shape.
But what you will most certainly get out of the box is:
- bad alignment of the mirrors. Not a problem of the shipping, they are not aligned at all.
- bad alignment of the Z table. You will need to remove it and adjust each one of the four screws... but anyway I found it goes out of alignment over time again and again, since the system is poorly designed at so many levels; and also, the honey comb table provided is poorly made, so it actually doen't keep the same height all along, basically you need to live with a few mm offset, not good at all if you want to use 1.5inch lenses
- the air pipe to the lens holder is zipped/folded so the air doesn't pass through.
- the belt tension is not right.
- the machine is not grounded.

So, no matter what, you'll never get a perfect perpendicular beam, there are too many issues in the path to be able to make it go down totally straight.
In the same way, no matter what you'll loose some power in the far corner of the table.
The better you calibrate you machine the better results you'll get, but don't lie yourself, there are some quality limitations that prevents you of getting a 'perfect' result.
Don't misunderstand me here, 'perfect' is subjetive, I know is not an Epilog or other precission machine, but anyway for its price range I expect more control... like if I cut a square out of 3mm MDF, both sides (top and bottom) are going to measure the same instead of getting angle cuts; so if you are planning to make complex inserts, think twice.


SOFTWARE
The software is made by FS.
It's buggy, even if you go just for the stable (non BETA) version, but to be honest, they are continuously upgrading it.
Anyway, some time ago they stopped the official support for 'old' (mine was about a year old at that time) models, pushing you in the direction of buying a complete new machine... their last model.
Over all the issues with FS software, it actually works well, but don't expect it to be a plug and play printer although they sell it as a printer driver.
Some issues related to precission and repeatability comes and go depending of the software version.
Also I remember that when I got it everybody was complaining about connection issues, and then they started selling a piece o alu foil to cover the electronics to later ground everything (you even had to scratch out the paint of the case for that), alluding to some interference caused by the laser radiation... a few software updates later the problem was solved and no need of alu foil or scratching anything....




So I hope you found it this useful, and hope you have something to share about this or other machines from Thunder Laser, Gbos Laser, Jinan Quanxing, G weike, Red Sail, TurnKey, etc...
You can write you own review, or if you know a good one, just post the link here so everything get indexed in the same thread.

Take care, and happy lasering

[tejaswood]

Sorry to hear, Mine has worked perfect over the last 1.5 years with A LOT of use... Called tech support twice and got immediate help both times.. (Problem was on my end).. Software / hardware perfect out of the box. (of course first alignment needed). Good luck and hope you get your machine working like you want.

[Peleacios]

Sadly that random issues ar not only from FSL but also other Chinese lasers, that's the whole point of this thread, to point out the good and bad experiences, so people can get a feeling of how random they actually are... if there are more good than bad, or viceversa, so we have some real info to decide on what to buy.

I started the thread adding the review of FSL because it's the system I have, but don't want this thread to become the classic FSL complaining, although in my case it didn't performed.
It's a cheap machine anyway so you wouldn't expect much, but if you are out of USA, then you have to add to the base price the overseas shipping, plus the import taxes, plus the conversion rate, plus more fees, etc... and you will double the price at least.

My opinion now is that for that amount of money I better go for other company this time rather than keep trying to get out of it something that is not designed for, but it was a good machine to start learning the hard way though
I simply think that I wasted a lot of money in something that actually was not the machine itself, not only because of the import story, but because I know the real price of the machine since it came with the import papers directly from the manufacturer out of USA, stating a much lower value than the reseller price of course; so now if I'm going to invest 4k, I want a machine that at least worth 3k and save that extra 1k for the import, but my last experience was the other way around and even a bit further.

PS. Providing company information of manufacturers or real prices is not allowed.

[Gweikelasers]

Cost-performance should be the an important point, because differenct cutomers have different budgets and different demands.

[Exsecratio]

Also I remember that when I got it everybody was complaining about connection issues,

Conjecture and speculation based on one side of a story, I'm well known for not being a fan of some manufacturers but to base publicly posted information on "what you have heard" and not "What you have personally experienced" does nobody any favours.

Mel is quite right in what she says, western made lasers are premium quality but at a premium price, far eastern made lasers may not have the quality but they certainly do have the price

I've had more than a few Chinese made lasers supplied by a home country vendor and as yet I have not had any problems. That doesn't confide that others will have the same experience just that mine was great. I've personally seen some right hack jobs in lasers as well, users jet washing the inside while it is under power, machines being dumped down flights of stairs and years worth of crap in the machine having never been cleaned, these very users then go on to bemoan how their machine was a pile of ***T when in reality if the full story was known most people would consider them to be user faults and not machine faults.

When writing a review try to remain objective, opinions have no real place in providing facts and hearsay just muddies the water, for example: I don't particularly like Henry at FSE, that doesn't automatically mean his machines are crap, it simply means I dislike the owner of the company and his machines may actually be great (I have never owned one so cannot give an objective opinion). Try to remember whenever opinions get posted on the internet 50% of the people reading will take it at face value without looking to see if any of the information offered has been verified or is even verifiable.

If I can offer some pointers?

"I've read a lot of complains on Chinese software, but in this case, hardware is the worst part:(I've read the moon is made of cheese and the earth is flat, that doesn't make it so)
The case is not bad, standard construction... but plate that hold the laser mount is somehow floating, so I added an extra piece to connect it to the main frame and make it more stable.
The the mirror holders are terrible and there is no way of getting a solid adjustment.
The lens holder is the worst of it, cheap (bad) alu milled work:(It's a cheap machine, you cannot pay a little and get a lot)
- the top mirror is not at 45º... they even provided it with a bit of tape to try to correct the angle. (or they could spend $100 making it adjustable and charge $150 more for the machine, cost Vs effect)
- the enter for the laser beam is not centered, I had to mill it to the right because the beam was hitting it. (not the best solution, it's more likely to be the tube out of line but now you have a nice new milled slot in your laser head)
- the head is not fixed, so with time is slightly tuns, and you need to readjust... I ended up gluing it.
- the lens itself is not center either nor flat, so the final quality of the output is quite questionable. (Laser lens's aren't supposed to be flat)
You can try and try to adjust it, but there is hardware issue that can't be solved, so you better replace some parts and start over."

You see what I mean?

cheers

Dave

[Peleacios]

Thanks for the add Dave, you are right, I might expressed myself in the wrong way.

Also, I have to admit that it was my first laser cutter, but I had then a big CNC router and I'm used to deal with machinery and complex software, along with workshop skills. In fact, during these two years I have been helping a few users to calibrate their machines to best possible result, so believe when I say that I know what I'm doing, and there are machines and machines.

So to clarify:

"Also I remember that when I got it everybody was complaining about connection issues"... which means, I experienced that, but also know of lot of people with the same issue. I tried all the sanding, scratching, and ground shield options, but never was able to finish an engraving that took more than an hour, it just aborted at some point. A few software updates later everything suddenly started working smoothly, I even removed (after everything was working fine) the ground shield since the circuits and cabinet were no designed to hold it well (for me seemed more risk of a short circuit than other thing) and still the connection is rock solid.
So no speculation here, maybe don't scientific research either, but my opinion is that it was a severe software side bug rather than other thing.

"I've read a lot of complains on Chinese software, but in this case, hardware is the worst part"... I don't have another Chinese lasers, but this is chinese production, so that comment actually was a good one for them, the software that comes with it (FSL made) is not that bad as what people says about Chinese lasers software. It's not Mach3 of course, but is usable.

"The lens holder is the worst of it, cheap (bad) alu milled work"... For a base price of 2350USD I expect the lens and top mirror are 45º at least, and of course not holding in place by tape... call me perfectionist if you want.

"The enter for the laser beam is not centered, I had to mill it to the right because the beam was hitting it"... let me put it that way: I had my laser head orientated according to the top mirror, I mean top the mirror is aligned to be facing second mirror and completely parallel to Y axes, then the enter to the laser laser head was not facing in the same direction, it was off a few mm and in fact not even pointing to the center of the lens tube (if you follow the path of the hole with a piece of wood that matches the size you can check that)... So, the tube, first and second mirror, were totally aligned and hitting always the same point no matter where the laser head is located over the table, but If I rotate the laser head to let the laser beam enter it, it was not hitting the center of the top mirror, then not hitting the center of the lens, then not firing straight to the table... That's why I milled it again, so it can enter where it should.

"The lens itself is not center either nor flat, so the final quality of the output is quite questionable" Well actually I forgot to say that the lens came upside-down, as many other user has reported. Of course the lens is not flat, it's a plano-convex where the convex side should be pointing to the laser source (top). Here the thing, if you leave as it came, convex facing down it fits the lens holder milled area, but it you flip it, suddenly the milled area seems to tight and the lens can't stay flat (and I mean, not all the flat surface is touching the bottom of the lens holder).
In this case I didn't milled the holder since I found the problem came with their 250USD lens being slightly bigger than what it should... I have a few other lenses not coming from FSL that fit perfectly, so I didn't care much of wasting 250USD on a official lens that I can't use... little details that makes you waste money, time and energy, I had to buy lenses elsewhere and avoid the expensive/original one, so I totally would paid more to have the whole thing working as supposed directly from FSL.


Regarding to your comment "they could spend $100 making it adjustable and charge $150 more for the machine, cost Vs effect", I totally agree, for 2350USD base price, expending a 150USD more to make it right would be completely logical and almost imperceptible, but they don't give that option.


Again, for the ones who think I was to hard on FSL, I'm sorry, but I also would like to hear experiences with other machines rather than focus only FSL, or if you have good reviews of them please feel free to add them, as well as links to reviews you've read elsewhere (FSL or not) and you think should be added to the thread; I would like to read something here about NiceCut, Gbos, Gweike, ThunderLaser, etc...

[epilotdk]

Basically you paid $2350 for a sub $1000 machine. For the extra money you paid you got a better (?) controller and supposedly some support if there are problems. What I don't understand is that since you are so unhappy with the quality of parts, why didn't you return the laser? I don't know about US consumer protection laws but in the UK you can return an item within a certain period if you discover it is not fit for purpose.

[underthetire]

You guys should count yourself lucky. We paid 300k for a 150watt co2 that went down. By a miracle, I was able to get it running, but the builder went out of business. I was almost ready do pull the coherent laser out and put it on something else. And even on this expensive machine,the software sucks. Can't even run a gcode program to cut accurate shapes easy.

[Exsecratio]

I'll give you an idea of what a good suppliers machine is like

I'll repost the following from a couple of other forums about what happened when I moved house and had to take a Rabbit / HPC / HX 1290 with me

http://hpclaser.co.uk/index.php?main...&products_id=2 this is the machine I had to move.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As some people that know me personally will be aware I have moved house recently to Salisbury.

This gave me a bit of a problem when it came to moving my HPC 1290 Pro machine. Now the 1290 is a pretty big bit of kit and while not particularly heavy it is very bulky to shuffle around.

The first problem was how to actually get the thing 18 miles down the road as it isn't going to be fitting in a car any time soon . I looked at hiring either a 3.5 or 7.5 Tonne vehicle from a local firm but soon found that many hire vehicles have their tail lifts cut short to prevent people overloading them. While the lift could easily manage the 350KG weight the size of the lift meant that it would not take the wheelbase of the 1290

After looking at a long wheelbase transit and a few other vehicles it became obvious that man handling the thing into the back of one of those wasn't going to be practical so a look through my phone book soon gave me the number of a friend who owns a car recovery truck. Not just any truck but one with a hydraulic bed that travels backwards then lowers to ground level.

Great so getting the laser on to that was no real problem, the wheels on the 1290 are good quality sensible diameter rubber ones so they could cope with the small 20mm lip on the sled. Between Bill and I we soon had the thing on the truck and were on our way!(in a nice convenient rainstorm and guess who had no cover)

Arriving at the new house it was pretty simple just to roll the machine on to the driveway, DAM, the passageway at the side of the house while nice and secure isn't very wide, we have the side wall of the house one side and an 8 foot high concrete block wall the other, add in a nice security gate and the passable width was only 970mm, DAM DAM the 1290 when tipped on to it's back is just over 1000mm in width even with the wheels removed!!

Looks like it would have to come to pieces.....while considering that I also remembered that I was going to store the machine in a big conservatory while I built my new workshop and that also had a small door opening so the laser wasn't going in there any time soon either! A few minutes thought and I came to the conclusion that this was going to be a royal pain in the butt and decided to keep the machine on the driveway while I finished construction of the log cabin it was going to live in. A quick trip to B&Q and I had a nice £10 tarp (yup real shoddy thing) to throw over the machine while I got the workshop done. I did bring the tarp home on a B&Q flatbed trolley (more on why later) and threw it over the top of the laser. No tie downs or anything like that just a few handy rocks to keep it down.

Due to other pressures and a workload I don't even want to consider, I had decided I wasn't going to spend a while lot of time worrying about the machine as if it got messed up it would give me a good reason to buy another one (bigger) as the 1290 had paid for itself several times over by now. So literally left it on the driveway covered in a flimsy plastic sheet / tarp.

Now things seemed to be on the right track and I thought the machine would only be out there maybe a few days to a week at worst, WRONG!

The builder who was supposed to be doing the base decided he was "ill" and backed out of doing the base for the cabins, a quick look round soon advised me that I wasn't going to get a builder in before Christmas so being a reasonably confident sort I decided to do all the building work myself! (keep in mind I'm an Architectural Draughtsman and Physicist by qualification and NOT a builder) but hey you know how it is, us guys like to think something often looks easier than it really is.......

So at this point I have a huge pile of dirt in the end of the garden to move(circa 30 tonnes), an £8000 laser sat on the driveway and a path 6 inches too narrow to move it down, two huge log cabins (well piles of wood in the garden) no power to the site I'm going to be working in (I'm no electrician either), alternating -6 to +10 degree temperatures with occasional downpours of rain thrown in and a new house to get organised as well as a family and customers to think about.

-----------------------------------------------------

On we go then, suffice to say the 7 weeks the machine ended up staying outside for weren't the best weather we could have had with sun , rain, freezing temperatures to mention just a bit of it. (remember my 10 quid tarp)

I managed to strip the machine into two sections to give myself enough room to move it and that's where the B&Q trolley came in.

Using two 75 x 50mm pieces of wood (3m in length) two of us levered the thing over it's balance point so that it tipped onto the trolley (keep in mind the tube was still in it) on it's rear face. From there it was pretty easy to just remove the Chinese chocolate screws that held the machine together and the base was set to be pulled away BUT at this point Chris (who knew I was moving) called to remind me that the wires would need to be removed from the PSU and the Z axis motor.

Now if you come to move a 1290 under no circumstances should you remove the gears driving the Z axis, if they are not refitted carefully you can and will throw the table out of level leading to either a call out from HPC or a LOT of mucking about to get it right again. So I simply cut the wires (they are colour coded) to allow the entire base to be slid off.

A few hours of jigging around and lots of swearing and between two of us we had the two pieces at the back of the house.

The wires were routed ready and the base was bolted back on (with A2 grade quality stainless steel cap screws I may add)

The machine was then tipped back onto it's wheels in the front of it's new building and wheeled in. A few minutes re-connecting the wires (I took a picture of all the connections before removing them) and the machine was ready to be set up again

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So far people will have seen that this machine took a LOT of crap!! it's been abused, left outside in variable temperatures and rain as well as being roughly man handled by two of us moving it.

So how much damage did all this actually do?

Currently it's sat next to me as I type cutting out an Amityville House in 3mm MDF at the SAME speed it did before I moved with the exact SAME level of quality.

There is no noticeable corrosion or damage to either the slides or any of the moving parts, the paintwork is untouched!

The mirrors are not in any way corroded and the lens in both the tube and final laser head are both fine.

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6 months down the road the SAME tube is in the machine and cutting as well as the day I bought it.

cheers

Dave

[tejaswood]

Dave. As I read over your very interesting story.. I formed some very intelligent well thought out questions about the whole process you went through.. But then I realized that I should narrow them down to the most important ones so here it goes.

1. What's a Draughtsman ?
2. How much is a quid again?

But on the serious side. Excellent post, thanks for taking the time to share with us all... I really did enjoy reading it...

Mike

[Exsecratio]

1. What's a Draughtsman ?
2. How much is a quid again?

I used to design houses (as in AutoCAD work) ergo Draughtsman

"Quid" English slang for £1

Excellent post, thanks for taking the time to share with us all

Thanks Mike, I've been very lucky having the supplier I have, I went through a lot of different ones before settling on HPC and to date (5 years down the road) I haven't had 1 second of regret (I'm about to buy more machines from them).

cheers

Dave

[Peleacios]

What I don't understand is that since you are so unhappy with the quality of parts, why didn't you return the laser?

Basically because I paid much more than that and I was not in USA, so actually I imported it although they were charging me as they made the import, but to return it I had to pay more than 1000USD extra just to ship it back... the same if I have an issue, they just ask to ship the machine back to check it instead of giving me real support. For me their support then is the same than having support directly from the Chinese manufacturer, I just can't afford to ship back the machine every other week.
And actually, from my short relation with Chinese manufacturers in my look for a new machine, they seem much more nice and supportive than Henry and their vision of business politics.

I don't want to think too much about exactly how much I already paid in a system that doesn't work properly, but I think that if you add the import taxes and shipping, lenses, an extra motor, replacement of the motor board, replacement of retinaEngrave (shipping of both boards), etc... you roughly make 4000USD.

It a sad story, you could even call me naive because I totally trusted them and they sent me the machine directly from China, at the price of their USA import, while I was actually doing the import, paying the taxes and shipping from the factory of something I thought was coming from USA and they had checked (had to admit I didn't made my research on them back then), instead I got a machine with heavy issues that they were just reselling from factory without any warranty... but I also learnt a lot in that nightmare path.
So nowadays I don't see any trouble on importing directly from a Chinese manufacturer instead of a reseller... so my money actually goes to more quality instead of more hands that makes no good at all... following your sentence, I spent 4000USD on a sub 1000USD machine, nowadays I would rather spend 3000USD in the machine and 1000USD in the import costs.

[epilotdk]

USD4000 is a lot. I imported a LG6040N with a 60W tube for less than that. China to UK. It's been running perfectly and paid for itself in under 6months. USD1000 in shipping cost sounds ridiculous - where in the world are you?

[Peleacios]

Jejeje well, then you understand why I'm not happy not only with the machine but with the company. They charged me that to get it to Germany... not that far from UK, so you do the math. After talking with Chinese manufacturers they offer the shipping just for a couple of hundreds dollars, you still have to add the taxes and some fees, but still ridiculously less.

But enough about me and FSL, would you mind to write some about your machine and your experience with Gweike?
That is one of the models I'm considering... you can follow my review and just fill the questions:

How long did you have it?
Did I replaced the tube?
Would you recommend it (are you happy)?
What kind of material are you cutting/engraving?
What kind of issues did you found?
What is the overall quality and output resolution?
What about the software?
What about the quality of the hardware (mechanics, electronics, cabinet and construction)?
Etc... you can add whatever you want.

I would really appreciate it.

[Exsecratio]

Pele,

If you are registered for Mehrwertsteuer then buying from the Uk would mean no VAT as well.

Chinese government subsidises postal rates so often their post charges seem less than people would normally pay, I export to Germany frequently and post from here to there is quite a bit more than post from China to here.

cheers

Dave

[Peleacios]

I will look into some UK suppliers, but you are right, EU post can get expensive but at the same time can save the VAT... also conversion rate between £ and € is something to consider.

And thanks for sharing the story about your machine, it seems pretty solid

[Peleacios]

Anybody has recent info on Nicecut?

Product Center-CNC Router|cnc router price|woodworking cnc router|laser engraving machine

I didn't found much info on the forum, but found some people websites using it and their works are good quality.

[cautious32]

Anybody has recent info on Nicecut?

Product Center-CNC Router|cnc router price|woodworking cnc router|laser engraving machine

I didn't found much info on the forum, but found some people websites using it and their works are good quality.

I have just purchased a 80w CO2 laser from Nice-Cut. I have a friend who has a Nice-Cut. He is very happy with the machine and after sales support.

I did get quotes from about 9 other China suppliers and NC wasn't the cheapest by about $150 but they had the best communication and based on my friends experience I went with NC. Bright Hao is the contact person and he has a good understanding of english with helps a lot.

[Rodney Gold]

Those 40w hobby type lasers go for round $499 ex china.. and to be blunt , they are utter crap. No reputable chinese laser mnfgr will recommend one (even if they make them) and some wont sell you one as it will tarnish their reputation.

[Peleacios]

I had that feeling back then, that's why I decided to purchase from FSE thinking that would be more reliable (have to admit I didn't make my research and didn't knew it was the same Chinese stuff).
My surprise was to discover that they didn't even sent me the machine from USA, they just called the manufacturer to ship directly from China to my place one of those crap units, adding about 600% of the cost in the way... you could say that big price difference is because of the software and hardware they add... but man, not even mackintosh add that kind of high benefit, and even if they do, you get something that work like a charm... and that was not ever the case with FSL.

Which machine do you use?
Could you give some recommendations?