[bob-morey]

Hello,
I'm writing this as a last resort to try and resolve issues with my NM200 Version 2. I have had problems since I bought it in 2010. It is apparently loosing steps. The machine looses steps on the X or Y axis and then when it tries to resume the program the result is scrap. Sometimes the X or Y axis will just take off and run the tool across the part, while Mach3 thinks its running the program. Sometimes the machine will just stop (all axis and spindle) in mid program. Sometimes Mach3 will freeze up just sitting doing nothing. Sometimes restarting Mach3 will clear the fault (usually no error messages) and get the machine running. Sometimes the machine PC must be re-started. Occassionally a false "E-stop" will occur.

I've been trying the last year to resolve the problem. Since then, I've spent $100 on a new BOB (from CNC4PC) and this did not resolve the issue. I had CNC4PC re-check the original BOB - they say it should be fine and no problems. I spent $320 on an Ethernet Smoothstepper from WARP 9. This did not resolve the problem. The machine faulted in approx 30 min the same as when running on a parallel cable. I've tried running the machine with a different computer (with WinXP) vs the Win 7 onboard computer. This has not worked thus far - I cannot get the Mach3 motor tuning to work correctly with the WinXP computer. I use this computer on two other CNC machines and it runs them day and night, but not the NM200. The onboard (win 7) computer and the stand alone XP pc are both similar RAM memory and OS speed but for some reason the motors make a clunk-clunk-clunk noise with the Win XP machine. In order to get the motors to run at all (still not smooth) I had to set the velocity to 20 (from 75 in/min) and acceleration to 2 (from 5). The motors run very smooth with the Win 7 on board computer, but the machine will fault or lock up almost every attempted run (therefore cannot be relied on for anything). I have checked all the pins, port settings and step directions - as far I can tell they are the same on both PC. I have run out of ideas as to why the XP machine will not work properly.

I have tried diifferent parallel cables - still same faults. I have tried the parallel cable direct to onboard PC (vs through adapter card) - still faults as described above.

To say this machine has been a dissapointment is an understatement. Besides the running issues and scrapped parts, the finish of the paint is horrid. It looked like it had leprosy (paint peel and rust spots) everywhere - right out of the crate. The drill chuck that came with the machine looked like it was salvaged from the Titanic - a giant blob of rust (that went into the trash). Numerous fasteners were missing, sheet metal panels were bent, the Z-axis motor metal cable shield was broken. Now over a year later the machine still doesn't run worth a darn. If I could sell this thing for scrap I would do it (paid $11K new). I wouldn't recommend trying to buy tooling from Novakon either. After three non-answered e-mails just trying to buy tool holders from Novakon I gave up on that as well. I buy all my tooling from Tormach. The Tormach tooling is excellent, works fine, and they are responsive and helpful.

This is not an attempt to bash Novakon. I can tell from this forum there are numerous satified customers. I do hope the new machines are better than my generation of machine.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Ready to scrap this NM200 in Seattle,
Bob

[Hirudin]

It sounds like a lot of your issues could be caused by the onboard computer - obviously you suspected that as well. It's strange that the XP PC didn't work with the machine.

As for making sure the settings are the same on both the XP and Win7 computers: I thought Mach3 stored all its settings in a file - did you copy that file over or manually copy all the settings over?
http://www.machsupport.com/forum/ind...?topic=15789.0

Quick question: do you use Mach3 with the two other machines as well?

One more thing: what do you mean by "now over a year later..."? I ask because it sounds like you've owned the machine for ~2.5+ years.

[UniqueMachining]

Bob Morey

I tend to agree with Hirudin. While you don't mention the frequency of the issues, I assume it does work sometimes.
That would tend to indicate that the basic machine function is sound.

Assuming you have already checked out all the electrical connections, it really does sound like a flakey component in the computer. We tend to forget that the mill generates vibrations far beyond what a desk/lap top ever encounters.

On the series 1 I recently re-built, it didn't care for win XP (or the old computer). Mach (ver.066) would hiccup when I used more than three subroutines and exhibited other quirks. When I upgraded to Win 7 and a faster computer those issues disappeared. One further upgrade was to install an SSD hard drive, then the difference was dramatic. You could hear the difference. The movements smoothed right out and it literally hummed. By the way all the new mills now come with SSD.

My conclusion (right or wrong) was that a bottle neck existed somewhere between Mach, the computer and the final result. I attribute the smoothness to the SSD hard drive. With today's fast CPU's the slowest device seems to be the hard drive. It's almost as if Mach occasionally overwhelms the system.

Also try a fresh Mach download and install, this often cures sporadic corruption.

Good luck
John

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Bob,

Have you talked to Novakon about the problems? Of course, the problem you have now is you've made so many changes, they may not be able to help much either. Blindly swapping parts to try to resolve a problem is usually a bad idea, as you're as likely to introduce new, additional problems. I would suggest you put it back to stock, if that's still possible. It should be possible to get it working very well with all the stock hardware.

Your problem is clearly with the PC, not the machine itself, particularly since you say "Sometimes the X or Y axis will just take off and run the tool across the part, while Mach3 thinks its running the program." It is quite impossible for this to happen on a stepper machine due to any electrical or mechanical fault, unless this occurred only after installing the SmoothStepper?

What version of Mach3 are you using? Many recent versions have SERIOUS bugs in them, including the most current release.

I'am also baffled as to how you "spent $320 on an Ethernet Smoothstepper from WARP 9", when the price for the ESS is only $180.

Regards,
Ray L.

[Hirudin]

If this isn't what you already tried: I think the first thing to try is to copy the config file from the Novakon computer to the XP computer and see what happens. As long as moving the computer isn't a huge task it should be pretty quick and easy.

[Novakon]

In reviewing some of the history of this situation, a few things come to light.

We have been working with Bob for well over a year’s time regarding this elusive problem. When we proposed certain solutions to this issue and not hear anything further for months at a time, we presumed that the matter was taken care of and Bob’s machine is working as expected. Not being able to analyze the problem first hand due to distance limitations, we can only suggest the most probable areas of interest. While all of the possible suggestions seemed to have been tested, it appears now that the problem is still being very elusive.

Not knowing our customer’s technical capabilities or the equipment on hand in troubleshooting systems of this nature, it seems evident that we need to elevate the solution to the next level. Since local customer isolation of the problem seems not feasible, the only solution that we can offer would be to examine the actual NM-200 Series 2 Mill in our premises and proceed accordingly.

Regarding the tool order that Bob is mentioning, we have not received any inquiry for the purchase of any tools as indicated. We respond to all orders via our web store direct purchase, or personal inquiries to [email protected].

Regards,
Novakon Team

[LeeWay]

I get a few customers that often mention that I do not respond to emails. I respond to every single email I receive. They usually find out that they or someone else has deleted it or they were in some sort of Spam folder.

I can't tell you how many times this very situation has happened over the years, but it is not an odd occurrence.

Novakon has answered every single phone call and email that I have sent. Sometimes within minutes.
Just stating the facts. It's hard to believe that they selectively do not answer emails.

[bob-morey]

Thanks for the replys. I will try to answer everyones questions.

First: Have I contacted Novakon? Yes. The last e-mail I got from them was in December 2012. I was told that there were several machines in the install base with issues like mine. I was told they were working very diligently on the problem. I was also told that they were evaluating the Ethernet smoothstepper as a possible solution. This is the last I heard from them. I followed up with an e-mail in February 2013-> no response. I followed up with another email in March 2013 -> no response. The last two emails I sent them stated that the suggestions they have given me have not resolved the issue. I will give them the benefit of the doubt that perhaps they just didn't get the emails (including the earlier requests for price and availability of tooling). But I'm puzzled how one could assume that since we're not hearing from you that things are ok (based on the issues). Technical issues like this usually don't just fix themselves or go away. I would think you wouldn't assume a problem is fixed until you get the "Problem has been resolved" email or call? And that more than likely the problem still exists if the last conversation was "I'm having trouble". I'm not trying to bash any one - just state the facts.

To the suggestion of returning the machine to stock: The stock version had frequent lock-ups, freezes and false e-stop triggers. I don't see any merit to returning it to stock if the "stock" version had issues? In the stock condition, sometimes the faults would occur 3-4 times a day, sometimes the machine would run for 2 or 3 days without a fault. Sometimes you can run a batch of parts for several hours, sometimes the machine will fault 6 hours into a job and ruin (by loosing steps, or axis take off on its own) what you have been working on. I simulate every program both in the software used to create it and in a third party verification software. For large complex parts I will machine them in foam first to be sure the program is ok. I am certain this is not a programming problem. The machine has frozen and locked up running foam on several occasions. The Machine has locked up (Mach3 frozen) several times just sitting idle.

I have not undertaken any changes just to be changing things. Most if not all were suggested by Novakon to diagnose the problem.
This included:
Download and install latest version of Mach3->Did that, same faults occur
Download and install all Win 7 updates including service pack 1 -> Did that, faults still occur
Connect parallel cable direct to PC (bypassing adapter card) - > Did that, fault still occur
Tried different parallel cable (my idea) -> fault still occur
Replace chip set on BOB -> Returned BOB to manufacturer CNC4PC for evaluation-> No issues with board found, reinstalled BOB. Machine fault still occur as before.
Bought a replacement BOB (version C11G) -> Couldn't get output from the board (axis or spindle would not move), replaced with original BOB
Try different computer (Win XP tower PC that I run 2 other CNC machines with, with Mach 3 control) -> could not get Novakon motor to run smoothly
Installed same version of MAch3 on WinXP PC as Novakon on-board PC -> No difference, Novakon motor not run smoothly.
Copied original XML profile from Novakon PC to WinXP PC -> Novakon motor will not run smoothly. Make a loud clunk, clunk, clunk. I stopped fearing this would damage the motors
Created new XML profile for NM200 on WinXP computer using pin, port, motor tuning settings etc from original Novakon XML profile (in case Novakon XML corrupted) -> Motors make same clunk, clunk, clunk noise.
I decided to try the Ethernet Smoothstepper myself (nothing to loose) -> Same fault as with parallel connection, x or y gets lost and ruin part.
Install version .066 of MAch3 (recommended by Warp9) -> No difference, fault occurs

To the comment about the Smoothstepper board is $180. This true. I did not want to install another bare board into the cabinet because I though it might be sensitive to EMI (from other electronics) and ESD. So I bought the metal enclosed version with its own power supply for EMI protection. I have set this up with help from WARP 9 and it appears to functioning correctly. I was hoping if the problem were a signal noise issue from PC to BOB that the ESS would smooth out the signal issues. I was able to run 1 batch of parts with no issues (approx 40 min) and thought "oh good perhaps this fixed it". 5 minutes into the next run it faulted (x or y lost steps and ruined part). When the fault occurred it created a new home position (where tool ended up) and rezeroed the DRO's. I've never had that issue occur.

Is not that difficult to bring the machine back to stock condition (if I wanted to). I have not replaced motors or motor cables (no need to). When the machine runs, it runs ok. This is clearly a Mach3-Computer issue. There is a copy of the original Mach3 XML profile on the PC.

To the comment that I've had the machine 2 1/2 years; I placed the order for the machine in November 2010. Due the Xmas holidays the machine wasn't delivered until after Xmas 2010 in Jan 2011 (no fault of Novakon). The machine sat in the crate in my temperature controlled garage for 4 months while I made space for it, bought equipment to lift it etc. I also had a baby arrive at that time which delayed getting the machine set up. I got the machine up and running in April 2011. It has had the intermittent faulting since the first runs. At first I thought it was a minor hickup. Now the faulting occurs pretty much every run.

So the problem seems to point to the onboard PC? Now what to do?

Thanks,
B

[Hirudin]

Argh, what a pain! The fact that the known-good computer doesn't work is just confusing.

I did a Google search for "Mach3 clunk" and some forum posts from people with possibly similar problems popped up. Maybe trying to solve the clunking would be a better troubleshooting path.

I'll attach my old NM-200 XML, perhaps it'll help in some way. (I'm not certain, but I don't think I modified it.)

[rlockwood]

Ready to scrap this NM200 in Seattle,
Bob

Kinda a vulture move here, but if it comes to that... give me a heads up