[kolias]

Thank you Al for the info, very informative to let me understand what is involved

mmoe your help is much appreciated. Of course I will take your offer and remains how you want me to pay you; perhaps Paypal, Visa or I can even send you a money order. Please PM me and tell me what you think.

I'm very far from designing the panel (probably around December will be my best guess) but I would say 2 feet rails will be long enough. I was thinking to have one rail for all DC volts wiring and one for the 120VAC wiring + couple spares. Wires I will use will be 14G for the 120VAC and 18-24 for all DCV wiring. I include a picture of my previous panel to give you an idea how many components I will have.

Regarding the wiring ducting I will pass this item because I have some nice small plastic clips which will hold the wiring in place nicely, not as nice as a duct but good enough for now.

One item I would like to get and you don’t mention is the ground connections and I have many for both AC and DC. I remember reading somewhere that there is a DIN terminal for grounding? I guess you know better what I'm talking

If you think of anything else that I need pertaining to DIN rail / terminals please include them.

I found that USPS to Canada has a pretty good service and it's fairly inexpensive in comparison to FedEx and the like.

Thanks again for your help

[Al_The_Man]

There are Yellow/Green DIN terminals for grounding, I have used these, I have also set up a copper plate for star point grounding, I drill and tap for two rows of #10 machine screws.
Al.

[mmoe]

Thank you Al for the info, very informative to let me understand what is involved

mmoe your help is much appreciated. Of course I will take your offer and remains how you want me to pay you; perhaps Paypal, Visa or I can even send you a money order. Please PM me and tell me what you think.

I'm very far from designing the panel (probably around December will be my best guess) but I would say 2 feet rails will be long enough. I was thinking to have one rail for all DC volts wiring and one for the 120VAC wiring + couple spares. Wires I will use will be 14G for the 120VAC and 18-24 for all DCV wiring. I include a picture of my previous panel to give you an idea how many components I will have.

Regarding the wiring ducting I will pass this item because I have some nice small plastic clips which will hold the wiring in place nicely, not as nice as a duct but good enough for now.

One item I would like to get and you don’t mention is the ground connections and I have many for both AC and DC. I remember reading somewhere that there is a DIN terminal for grounding? I guess you know better what I'm talking

If you think of anything else that I need pertaining to DIN rail / terminals please include them.

I found that USPS to Canada has a pretty good service and it's fairly inexpensive in comparison to FedEx and the like.

Thanks again for your help

No problem, it will just take a few days before I'd get to finding the shipping cost out since I'll check on it next time I'm at the post office. Paypal will be fine, I'll PM you my Paypal email when I've got the pricing done.

There are green/yellow terminals, but really all they are is a different color. I'm with Al (if I have not misunderstood him) in that I don't use the terminals for earthing anyways, so I don't think you'll need them. I've had good luck using grounding bars that you would put into service panels, like these which you can buy at Home Depot or the like. You are limited in how small the ground wire can be, but I usually stick to around 14g for that anyways and they fit in these bars just fine:


For the "ground" wires that are not earthing (you'll have Voltage, GND, and Earth on some components), I just use the standard terminals and label them. I'm not sure what is considered kosher there, but I've always felt that the yellow/green terminals will be interpreted as "earth" on first look rather then "GND", so I don't use them to avoid confusion if someone else ever had to repair something I put together. Perhaps others could clarify if I'm incorrect.

My latest machine came with raised panels in the cabinet which work great for mounting DIN rails, or anything for that matter. Here's a quick drawing (in section) of what that looks like. There air space behind the panel is about 3/8" and leaves plenty of room for the screws to go completely through the mounting panel, while not going through the back panel. I've also done it as XJDUBBER suggested in the past, but after retrofitting my current machine with the raised panels, I really like the way that it works. Also, mounting the grounding bar in the above photo, or a Variable Frequency Drive securely is easy with the raised panel. If you have a welder handy, it doesn't take much to tack weld a panel in there and makes the process of mounting things easy and clean, allowing the box to mount flush a bit nicer. It wouldn't have to be this fancy and could just be a small piece of bar stock at each side spacing the panel out. Obviously not a necessity, but make life a little easier IMHO.

[kolias]

Sound good mmoe, I'm not in a hurry at all so when you ready let me know and I will Paypel you what you are asking.

Grounding bar sound good and I will use it. Also Al's idea about a copper plate is good too if I can find such a plate here.

I like the Rittal enclosures suggested by XJDubber, especially since they are made in Canada and I will investigate their cost. A metal enclosure the size of a desktop computer cost $300 at a local electrical supply store so I bought a desktop computer case for $16 and plan to use it as my enclosure. She also has a raised panel on one side like your drawing.

[Al_The_Man]

For the "ground" wires that are not earthing (you'll have Voltage, GND, and Earth on some components), I just use the standard terminals and label them. I'm not sure what is considered kosher there, but I've always felt that the yellow/green terminals will be interpreted as "earth" on first look rather then "GND", so I don't use them to avoid confusion if someone else ever had to repair something I put together. Perhaps others could clarify if I'm incorrect.

Unfortunately (IMO) this is where terminology has been 'corrupted' to me Earth and GND is the same thing, so this is where the confusion can arise,
I have two designated types of earth grounding, the star point where the earth service ground is taken to, and anywhere any of the yellow/green DIN terminals are also equi-potential bonded to earth ground.
"ground" wires that are not earthing is a misnomer?
Any power supply common that is not at earth ground I identify by its respective Supply +ve, IOW 24VC or 5vCOM etc.
When you label a power supply common as GND and it is not actually at earth ground potential can lead to all kinds of misunderstanding?
http://www.automation.siemens.com/do.../emv_r.pdf?p=1
The other often misused symbols are the power supply common and ground depictions.
Al.

[mmoe]

Unfortunately (IMO) this is where terminology has been 'corrupted' to me Earth and GND is the same thing, so this is where the confusion can arise,
I have two designated types of earth grounding, the star point where the earth service ground is taken to, and anywhere any of the yellow/green DIN terminals are also equi-potential bonded to earth ground.
"ground" wires that are not earthing is a misnomer?
Any power supply common that is not at earth ground I identify by its respective Supply +ve, IOW 24VC or 5vCOM etc.
When you label a power supply common as GND and it is not actually at earth ground potential can lead to all kinds of misunderstanding?

The other often misused symbols are the power supply common and ground depictions.
Al.

We're in complete agreement, which is why I put the quotation marks around "ground" when it's not earthing as I find it very hard to call it that. I also feel this is a confusing way to label things, but I'm finding it common practice for many DC voltage motion control products to have three power supply leads labeled "Volts, GND and E" or the even more confusing "Volts, GND, Ground" as if no one reads GND to mean ground as well. What I've found to be pretty consistent, however, is that so long as there are both GND and E or GND and Ground; GND in that case always means Common, which is what I would prefer they call it.

Case in point would be the controller I'm currently using, but I'll stress that it is far from the only one I've encountered this with. I've installed the CS Labs CSMIO IP-A into my CNC router along with several of the I/O modules. I think that if you are going to use GND, you should then use E to denote the difference between the two, but instead this is how the instructions read:





AC voltage products generally seem to adhere to "Voltage, Neutral, and Ground (or earth symbol)" and seem to consistently mean the true earth ground.

From the sounds of it, it seems that you also don't feel the GND "ground" (not earth) should be installed to the yellow/green terminals for the same reason I do, which is to keep the true ground obvious. Instead of labeling GND as such, I prefer to label them as 24V-- (or whatever voltage they are). I also don't label anything as ground at all, but prefer to label with "E" or Earth so as to be perfectly clear. You typically won't find GND or Ground anywhere that I've labeled something since the former as ruined the use of the term entirely. Curious how you label?

[kolias]

Good document to have Al, thanks

[Al_The_Man]

In the case of the power connector I would label pin 2 as 24vcom or simply 24C, definitely not GND if it was not connected to earth ground or not equi-potential bonded to it.
IMO this is where the confusion come in.
And especially where there are multiple supplies and they may, or may not, have their commons connected.
Al.

[kolias]

Here is my new control panel; perhaps other members can use this idea to make their own.

Bought a new empty computer case $16, plus 1/8" aluminum sheets cut to size $22, plus 1 length aluminum angle 1/16"x 3/4"x 3/4" $4 and a box of 1/8" pop-rivets. Box turned out solid

The inside back panel is 1/8"x 13" x 14" and is bolted to the case with 1/2" rubber stand offs

On the top flip-up lid I will install all push buttons etc.

[hollisin]

Thank you Al, so I got this straight and looks like the screw terminals are a much better alternative than wire nuts but if I could understand the DIN rail system I would rather go for it, looks like the "Cadillac" of connections, lol

On eBay I get many options on the DIN system and since I don’t know the options I hesitate to place an order. Since my panel will have 120VAC and 10-40VDC wiring I wonder what I have to order:

DIN rails come in 35mm, 32mm or 15mm. What is the difference between them?
Slotted or unslotted rails? What is the difference?
Do I need feed through terminals? What are the options?

What is the difference between End Clamps and End Plates; I know what End Plate is for but do I need one End Plate for each Terminal or if they are stuck together I only need 1 at each end?

I also know what the End Clamps are for but how many do I need? One for each end on a rail?

Pre assembled shorting pins; insulated or not? 2, 3, 4, or 10 poles?

And what about the wire gauge I will connect to each terminal? How do you identify this?

I purchased these and removed the 4 way jumper. I wired my 5 volt supply for my limit switches and the inputs using this. Much easier than using the connectors on the bob.

They are willing to set up custom configurations but there is a minimum purchase.

These are the mini size and take up a lot less room.

Wire Terminal Strip Block Custom 32A 22 14 AWG | eBay

[kolias]

Looks pretty good deal, too bad the listing ended cause depending on cost I would not have minded to get one set too

[hollisin]

They will list another like this if you email them. This what I have done.
I Check that the ground on the board was the same as the ground of the case Before I connected them.
They will make a strip of four groups of 3+3 ground strips for eight dollars each. Minimum order 5 plus 7.95 shipping.
That would give really nice connection points for the three axes.

Attachment 197194Attachment 197192

[greggv]

Look at AutomationDirect. They sell everything you need.

[belli]

Hi Kolias,

You are correct:
"The thread is here New 8'x4' Router build
but notice the date, is very old and dont think you will get a reply"

I very seldom come to CNCZone but today....

Please see the photo of the enclosure as it stands now, I have added a VFD for the spindle.
I can add a parts list of all the items that go into the enclosure and the company catalogue so that you can see what they look like.

The drawings for that machine I now mail to anybody who asks, there was a time when I thought I might want to build machines but have come to the conclusion that I never will.

Cheers!

[kolias]

They will list another like this if you email them. This what I have done.
I Check that the ground on the board was the same as the ground of the case Before I connected them.
They will make a strip of four groups of 3+3 ground strips for eight dollars each. Minimum order 5 plus 7.95 shipping.
That would give really nice connection points for the three axes.

I will keep this in mind for now; there is another member here who has offered to purchase for me these terminals from USA and mail to me. So I will wait

[kolias]

Look at AutomationDirect. They sell everything you need.

They only ship to Canada by UPS which adds a lot of extra cost

[kolias]

Hi Kolias,.........Please see the photo of the enclosure as it stands now, I have added a VFD for the spindle.
I can add a parts list of all the items that go into the enclosure and the company catalogue so that you can see what they look like.

The drawings for that machine I now mail to anybody who asks, there was a time when I thought I might want to build machines but have come to the conclusion that I never will. Cheers!

Hey belli, thanks for the offer but I have learned a lot from this thread so far and still learning

Cheers

[mmoe]

That reminds me, I've got your terminals sitting on my desk, along with a half dozen clamps and some endcaps. I haven't been to supplier with the DIN rails yet, but I'll get there sometime next week.
-Mike

[kolias]

No problem Mike, I don't expect to do any work on the panel before X-Mas but I'm ready when you are

Thanks for the help

[mmoe]

Nicolas,
I've got the DIN rails in hand. Let me know how many pieces and how long you want them cut to. Also, I've got 50 terminals, 6 end clamps, and two endcaps in hand, but if you want fewer terminals than the full box, I can always use whatever you don't want. Let me know how many terminals you'd like and I'll figure out what it all cost. DIN rails were about $1.50 for a 1 meter length (extruded aluminum with slots for screws), end clamps were about $1 ea., terminals about $0.50 each and endcaps were about $0.20 ea.
-Mike