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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    4

    Newb Build Questions...

    Hey all. First post here. Glad to see such an informative site.

    I've been dabbling with getting into machining, with no real or otherwise experience at all. That said, while the nature of dimensions (0.003", 1/64th, etc.) is intimidating, I think I can handle it. The technique of it all is another question. And it's one that will probably lead to its share of broken bits.

    So starting where most guys like me probably start, the question is with hardware. I'd like to keep my budget around $2500. And this is something that needs to be benchtop (double-checked, yep, right thread!). 4th axis is preferable and HSS facing and pocketing are going to be necessary (think; small-sized parts like muzzle brakes). Accuracy and precision are also necessary factors.

    Sherline and Taig make me question rigidity. The power doesn't bother me, as time is on my side (and unless the power is just completely inadequate). But if anyone knows from experience; at slow enough feeds, will they be rigid enough? Will they have enough power?

    The other option is an X2. It seems to have a little more oomph. But questions about accuracy come into play, especially with the initial setup. Tramming is a subject that I'm currently in the grey about.

    Would someone recommend this package, for a Sherline or X2, at $1400?
    Cnc Systems - SYS-5- Assembled Servo Driver System USB-2

    Also, the ball screw upgrade for the X2 seems popular. How desirable is it?

    I've spent days reading and searching. And one factor that raises its head repeatedly is that a lot of the sites and/or blogs are really dated. There's also the humorous part that most of the businesses selling stuff online seem to have designed their sites for a mid-90's browser like Netscape Navigator So am I current with my questions? Or is all of this completely out of date and there's some new whiz bang mill that I've completely missed?

    Lastly, while Mach 3 is a given, what CAM package at around $1000 would be on everyone's menu?

    Regards,

    Mike

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    151
    you should look at what's popular on this forum now, the g0704. it's a great machine for the money. there are many g0704 threads here but be sure to check out hossmans website and humongous thread here. g0704.com tons and tons of fabulous info.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    3920
    Quote Originally Posted by integr8d View Post
    Hey all. First post here. Glad to see such an informative site.

    I've been dabbling with getting into machining, with no real or otherwise experience at all. That said, while the nature of dimensions (0.003", 1/64th, etc.) is intimidating, I think I can handle it. The technique of it all is another question. And it's one that will probably lead to its share of broken bits.

    So starting where most guys like me probably start, the question is with hardware. I'd like to keep my budget around $2500.
    That might not be enough to get started! I'm basing this in the assumption you currently have little in the way of a shop.
    And this is something that needs to be benchtop (double-checked, yep, right thread!). 4th axis is preferable and HSS facing and pocketing are going to be necessary (think; small-sized parts like muzzle brakes). Accuracy and precision are also necessary factors.
    Muzzle breakers sound like something that could be done on a lathe. Accuracy and precision are somewhat up to the operator but realize you can't expect a lot out of these machines off the shelf. A $2500 DIY CNC build can never equal a $50,000 mill.
    Sherline and Taig make me question rigidity. The power doesn't bother me, as time is on my side (and unless the power is just completely inadequate). But if anyone knows from experience; at slow enough feeds, will they be rigid enough? Will they have enough power?
    The Taig Mini mill is a very nice machine if it fits your needs. It is however on the small side as such you need to consider carefully what your needs are.
    The other option is an X2. It seems to have a little more oomph. But questions about accuracy come into play, especially with the initial setup. Tramming is a subject that I'm currently in the grey about.
    Of the three you have mentioned so far I'd have to say the X2 is possibly the worst choice. The biggest problem is that the column is basically mounted on a hinge.
    Would someone recommend this package, for a Sherline or X2, at $1400?
    Cnc Systems - SYS-5- Assembled Servo Driver System USB-2

    Also, the ball screw upgrade for the X2 seems popular. How desirable is it?
    It could be seen as a requirement.
    I've spent days reading and searching. And one factor that raises its head repeatedly is that a lot of the sites and/or blogs are really dated. There's also the humorous part that most of the businesses selling stuff online seem to have designed their sites for a mid-90's browser like Netscape Navigator
    Most of these businesses run on a shoe string,they can't afford an Amazon like GUI.
    So am I current with my questions? Or is all of this completely out of date and there's some new whiz bang mill that I've completely missed?
    Read the forums, it appears that you have missed a lot.
    Lastly, while Mach 3 is a given, what CAM package at around $1000 would be on everyone's menu?
    Mach 3 isn't a given, there is LinuxCNC and a range of other possibilities.
    Regards,

    Mike
    The key to setting up a shop is to buy machines that you believe fit your needs but at the same time making sure you aren't buying too small. Also make sure the machine fits your projects, as mentioned above the first thing I thought of when you mentioned muzzle breaks was a lathe. Even so you need to understand how you will fabricate each part on the machine you buy. One persons lathe project is another persons mill project while yet another person would see an EDM project. In many cases the part will require access to more than one machine or process.

    Before investing a good chunk of change I would suggest looking for a few model engineering,old machining text books and other resources oriented towards the beginner. The idea being to get a better grasp of what is required machinery wise to accomplish various tasks. Anybody can take a wild guess as to what you need to buy but those sorts of responses aren't always helpful. You need to define what your goals are and from there work out what machine would be best to buy. If you define better what your intentions are the group here can offer more intelligent suggestions.

  4. #4
    Welcome Aboard,
    Hope you will find some of the following useful.
    The first job you need to tackle is to READ, a lot. Be patient.
    There is so much to learn and it's going to take some time to absorb it all.
    It takes years, literally, to become a good machinist. Don't get frustrated
    if something seems difficult, it'll come to you eventually. Hobby CNC requires
    you to become familiar with machining, designing, electrical, programming and
    computer skills to name a few. Oh, and get ready to spend a lot of money too.
    You don't have to spend it all upfront to get started, you'll have years to add
    to your shop. You can though, make your money back and then some if you make
    something with your mill that customers want.

    New to Machining in General?

    Don't know what chip load or climb milling are? You'll need to start with the basics.
    Take a class at your local VoTech or Community College if you can, the experience will be invaluable. Nothing like learning by doing.
    If classes aren't possible, start by watching all ten MIT Machine Shop videos. They will give you a great overview of many of the machines
    used in a typical shop and how to safely use them.
    MIT TechTV ? Machine Shop 1
    Little Machine Shop has a great selection of books and videos to help as well.
    Basic Machining Reference Handbook
    Basic Machining Reference Handbook - LittleMachineShop.com
    Machine Shop Basics
    Machine Shop Basics - LittleMachineShop.com
    Machine Shop Essentials: Questions & Answers
    Machine Shop Essentials: Questions & Answers - LittleMachineShop.com
    You can also rent DVD's from Smartflix.com that cover milling, turning CNC and other subjects.
    http://smartflix.com/store/category/115/Metalworking

    New to CNC?

    CNC is cool but it's not magic. YOU have to know how to machine a part before you can tell the software how to do it.
    Refer to Bob Warfields CNC Dictionary to get a leg up before attempting to jump into CNC.
    CNC Cookbook: Dictionary
    Learn what G-Code is and what each code does. CAM software (Computer Aided Manufacturing) will make life easier but
    you still must learn the codes so that you can edit or write your programs.
    The CNC Programming Handbook, Third Edition by Peter Smid is a great comprehensive guide.
    CNC Programming Handbook, Third Edition: Peter Smid: 9780831133474: Amazon.com: Books
    CNCInformation.com has an e-course you can sign up for free to learn the basics of CNC.
    Learn CNC, gcode, G-Code, G code Files in our E-mail Course
    As mentioned, CAM software is very beneficial, almost mandatory for some parts.
    CAD (Computer Aided Drafting) is used to design your part and usually outputs a full scale dxf file that most CAM programs can use to
    generate a toolpath (g-code) to machine your part. Some software is packaged as CAD/CAM and can do it all at once.
    There are MANY to choose from that range from FREE to tens of thousands of dollars.
    Hobbyist don't need the capabilities of the high end programs. I have links to several programs that I've tried that are either free or
    very reasonable at less than $1000, some very fine programs are only a few hundred.
    I'd suggest you download and try them all, most are free to Try before you Buy.
    It's important to pick a program that makes sense to YOU and not force yourself into using something that others find appealing.
    Install the program and run though a couple of the tutorials that are either included with the software or available for download from their site.
    Links
    Once you find something you like, you can get help, tips or samples from forums on Yahoo.com or CNCZone.com
    CAD software forum
    CNCzone.com-The Largest Machinist Community on the net! Over 300,000 members and growing.
    CAM software forum
    CNCzone.com-The Largest Machinist Community on the net! Over 300,000 members and growing.

    Looking For Your First Machine?

    Don't rush out and buy a machine that's "On Sale", chances are you'll regret it later.
    You need to have a handle on what type and size of parts that you're likely to make to make
    an "informed" decision. The hobby will quickly turn sour if your machine cant "cut it".
    Pay heed to those that have "been there, done that". There's nothing useful to be gained by
    repeating someone else's mistakes. If you have an initial budget limit to jump into the hobby,
    spend as much as you can on the machine. You will spend the rest of your life buying tooling,
    so don't scrimp on the machine to get extra tools to start. A vise, clamping kit, a pair of calipers
    and a small selection of cutting tools is all you need to start. Some companies include these with the machine anyway.
    When the time comes to add more tooling, don't scrimp here either. A well made tool will last for years and years.
    Measuring equipment is one place where you should spend more of your cash.
    Your parts will only be as good as the tools you use to measure them.
    High quality manufacturers such as Starrett, Brown and Sharpe or Mitutoyo won't let you down.
    Starrett Precision Measuring Tools and Saw Blades Since 1880
    Home
    Home - Mitutoyo America Corporation
    I told you this hobby is not cheap.
    Reading thorough reviews will also give a great incite into the machine of interest.
    Minimill reviews
    mini-mill.com home page
    Minilathe reviews
    mini-lathe.com home page

    You Have the Machine, Now What?

    You have your new machine and want to start making chips. Take some pics now,
    it will never look this good again. Chances are your machine arrived by truck in a crate.
    The Minimill review will give you some good pointers for unpacking, cleanup and accessories.
    Homier Mill Review - page 1
    Also be sure to completely read thru your user manual which are often available for download as pdf
    from the sellers website.
    Once you have the machine in it's home, it's almost time to get it dirty.
    If you are using it manually, you can start in on the gib adjustment procedure, axis leadscrew bearing adjustment
    and leadscrew nut adjustment (if possible) to get backlash as low as possible.
    This is covered in most manuals but you can read about it in the LMS Minimill Users Guide page 14.
    http://littlemachineshop.com/info/Mi...UsersGuide.pdf
    Next you'll want to adjust the tramming/column alignment to insure the cutter is true to the table.
    Tramming the X2 with Spindle/Column Alignment
    Shop Info
    Finally check that the X and Y axis are square.
    Clamp a known square part such as a 123 block on the table aligning the left side with the Y axis
    using an indicator. Snug down the 123 block and move the indicator to the front of the block.'
    Run the X axis along the face and if you have no movement of the needle, all is well.
    Any deflection from one end to the other indicates that the axis' are not square. If you are lucky,
    you may find some flash on the end of one of the dovetails that can be removed with a fine file or sanding.
    A severe out of square condition may require having the dovetails remachined or replacing
    the saddle.
    Out of square can be compensated for in the Mach 3 software under Formulas, but it's not ideal for long term.

    If you're using the machine under CNC, perform the same procedures as above.
    Then you'll want to setup the motor tuning.
    Hossmachine_Cnc Conversion
    Next is to check for backlash in the system.
    Verifying Mach 3 Backlash Comp
    Verifying Mach 3 Backlash Comp - YouTube
    Once that is taken care of, run the Axis Calibration for Mach 3 to make sure that Mach 3
    is physically moving each axis the exact distance it is supposed to be moving.
    Improved Mach 3 Axis Calibration
    Improved Mach 3 Axis Calibration - YouTube

    You are now ready to put the machine though it's paces. This testing is important to get the
    knowledge of what your machine is capable of for when it comes time to tell the CAM software
    what cutters, RPM's, feedrates, DOC's (Depths of Cut) etc. to use. get some stock similar to what
    you plan on using commonly and practice, practice, practice.
    Try starting with a 3/8 endmill and make many passes using different rpms, feedrates and DOC's.
    I made several videos doing just this, starting slow and building up speed and DOC each pass
    until the mill said NO MORE. This gave me the maximum rates at which it can run, but I generally
    run at less than half those rates to be comfortable.
    Feedrate tests
    Hossmachine Videos_4
    Speed and Feed charts and Calculators are valuable tools to get into the ballpark for setting
    the machining rates. Most are created with professional equipment in mind, so hobby machines
    need to use the lighter slower side of the scale.
    Shop Info

    Shop Info
    A good starting point is a chip load of .001 when using the calculator.
    Most machines can handle a bit more, I hit .0075 in some of the tests. Too light a chip load
    will cause too much chatter (squealing noise) and a poor finish. Using a cutting fluid such as
    oil, silicon or water based will improve the machinability and surface finish.
    Mach 3 contains many wizards that you can use to practice cutting parts also that will generate
    g-code programs. This can help you see what each line of code is doing to the part.
    It also gives you an incite into CAM software because you input the machining data in a similar way
    and the program outputs your toolpath g-code.
    Newfangled Solutions wizards aren't free but you can see on their website what some typically look like.
    Newfangled Solutions LLC - Mach3 Addons for Mill
    To get more out of Mach 3 or to just learn the basics, they have many tutorial videos to help you along.
    ArtSoft USA - Video Tutorials
    Told there was a lot to learn, but be patient, it'll only SEEM like a lifetime.
    It may take weeks or months, but things will start clicking. Before you know it,
    you'll be designing your own part, creating the toolpath, loading the program, setting up the machine and pressing START. Magic.
    Hoss
    http://www.hossmachine.info - Gosh, you've... really got some nice toys here. - Roy Batty -- http://www.g0704.com - http://www.bf20.com - http://www.g0602.com

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    4
    Thx wizard!

    You're correct in that I don't have a shop. My intentions are to rent (offer to rent) some garage space from a friend. The gear will live there. I don't have any tooling and am doing this from scratch.

    You're also correct in that a muzzle brake could be made on a lathe. And I would likely source something like that from round bar stock. As I'm sure you know, however, the intended profile would largely dictate the machine used.

    In the Taig/Sherline debate, I keep hearing that the Sherline can be brought up to the rigidity levels of the Taig. And it seems that 3rd party support for Sherline is a little more widespread. But I'm going to give Taig a hard look. If it can do what I want, I will seriously consider it.

    When I referenced the X2, I was thinking more of the LMS version with the fixed column. I'm aware of the issues with the hinged version. And it's something I'd like to avoid all-together. Thx for bringing that up.

    You're right that Mach3 is far from a given. I misspoke. That said, the question remains. If you had to pick a CAM solution around the $1000 mark, what would you lean toward?

    As far as buying a machine that I believe would fit my need, honestly, I'd like to remove belief from the equation. Correct me if I'm wrong. But the parameters are pretty straightforward; I need to identify the hardest material I'm most likely to mill, make sure that the machine has the rigidity, accuracy, precision, range (travel) and power to do so and source the machine and tooling necessary to carry it forward. Would you agree that that would all fit nicely into a little spreadsheet?

    Thanks for your input. I look forward to your response!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    4
    Thx Hoss!!! Tons of great info there.

    I like questions. So let me take a shot. Chip load is the amount of material removed in one pass per flute? Climb milling is a lateral movement, along the side of the work, where the flutes are rotating in the same direction as the travel? Just throwing that out there. I have no idea. But I will soon

    I will study each of the pages that you referenced...

    Regarding the links to your site, I noticed that the complete X2 cnc package, provided by Syil, is no longer active. Seems that they've removed it. But I'm glad that you mentioned Syil. Reading through all of their threads last night, I noticed that one person, in particular, had such a bad experience with his X4 that he sent it back. The problem was never identified. But there was speculation that it had to do with the parallel port either sending erroneous signals or not providing adequate voltage. That meme also appeared in other postings. One of the things that I really like about the package that I linked to is the USB connectivity. Can you speak to this? Can you speak to or speculate on that package as a whole? I'd be interested to know your thoughts. I'm also not afraid to spend a little more for servos, as the benefits of a closed-loop system make sense to me. Please note that I'm not knocking steppers. But when it comes to the possibility of missed steps, I'm fairly confident that I lack the ability to identify when and where they occur.

    Thx for the CAM links. It's kind of a jungle. UI is important to me. But making sure that it formulates, at least, workable tool paths and posts the proper code is more important to me... I do plan on adding 4th axis. But whether or not I need interpolated or indexed movements is unknown. I would chart that under 'capabilities that would be nice to have'... As for machine control, I'm going with Mach. The support cannot be argued. It's just everywhere.

    As an aside, and I'm running out of cnc lexicon here, can Mach control the X2's spindle speed and direction? I'm asking because tapping will be on the list.

    Clearly, a lot of time and effort will be required to get nice finishes and usable results. I would classify myself as more along the artistic side. Learning CAD has been more of a necessity than a desire (though the geek in me might argue that). Still, it would be nice to be able to scratch a design onto a napkin and have a computer analyze it and spit out a part on the other end. Maybe in 100 years

    Thx again. I look forward to your response. Cheers.

  7. #7
    Yeah, Syil has moved on to much bigger and better machines these days.
    Servos on an x2 aren't much gain for the money, a good stepper package like the g540 will give great performance and practically no worry of missed steps.
    G540 3-Axis NEMA23 381oz in PSU48V/7.3A | Automation Technology Inc
    or G540 4-Axis NEMA23 381oz in, PSU 48V/12.5A | Automation Technology Inc
    Bad missed steps are easy to hear, a loud buzzing/grinding noise and no movement.
    Mach 3 can control the spindle with a control board like a C6 from cnc4c or digispeed from Homann designs. (on/off/speed but not tapping)
    Mach doesn't support rigid tapping, LinuxCNC does.
    There are work arounds for this. Projects 8
    You might consider a tapping head though the X2 has limited Z for this, not a problem with a G0704,
    shars.com
    Many of the CAM programs I link to are free or free to try and very affordable. Links
    Everyone has their favorite but it's best to download and give each a try to see what is comfortable for you.
    Vectrics products appealed to me though they are geared more towards cnc routing and engraving, still work for metal.
    Hoss
    http://www.hossmachine.info - Gosh, you've... really got some nice toys here. - Roy Batty -- http://www.g0704.com - http://www.bf20.com - http://www.g0602.com

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