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  1. #49
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    DaOne
    That is twice now you have said Mach is too dangerous to use on a Lathe, here and on the Mach forum. You have sparked peoples interest in why you find it dangerous so please say why.

    Hood

  2. #50
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    Hood,

    I built a 9 x 20 CNC lathe for my 2 sons to learn on as the bigger machines I normally use at my shop are just way too powerful and dangerous for them to learn on. I figured I would use Mach3 as it was easy to setup and looked like it was just what we needed. I decided to make a new screen that was more like a commercial machine so that they learn the ins and out of how a "real" machine works so when the transition to the big machines come it will be an easy one. Anyways I was working on a small project with my son and the machine had a mind of its own while trying to use CSS. It basically over-sped the chuck while changing all feed moves to rapids. It basically crashed the machine. Thankfully it was a low power machine and only the the part and the tool were damaged. I restarted the machine and ran the same program in air and it ran correctly. At that point I blew it off as a fluke. Next project I had to make 5 of the same parts. On the 4th one it failed to start the spindle. Once again a broken insert. A restart and a new tool I was able to make the other 2 simple parts. Next issue was more less a known bug but not known to me that the tool radius offset does not work correctly and resulted in a gouged part. At that point there was no way I was going to trust a machine with this many problems with my newbie son in front of it. If it didn't get him hurt I am sure it would defiantly discourage him form the world of CNC. I started looking for another option. A real control was out due to cost. LinuxCNC fit the bill. Not a single issue with it and it gives me options that Mach3 just cant. It was a steep learning curve for me as I am a Windows guy but it was well worth it. Very powerful setup. I am now retrofitting a 20 HP Hitachi Seiki with no worries on safety for the shop. I will have an employee sitting in from of that machine. There is no way I would do this with Mach3. To me Mach3 is great for the hobbyist world of low power machines. Machines that a crash or failure wont kill or seriously hurt you or someone else. Just my 2 cents. take it for what its worth.

    Wes

  3. #51
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    CSS doesnt work correctly in Mach3 with G95, and never will (Mach4 sees it fixed supposedly ) so in my opinion it is not worth using. I have only tested it out a few times on my lathe and had no problems like you saw but as I said I never use it day to day. I am wondering however if you used G48 to limit the spindle speed?
    Regarding the spindle not starting, I have heard of that issue before but has always been a Mill, that could be just because Mills are much more prevelant. It is usually a corrupt m3 macro that causes it and why some people get the corruption and others dont I have no idea. A simple macro pump monitoring spindle speed and comparing to commanded would stop you crashing things however.
    I have been using my big lathe now for probably 7 years and in all that time I can honestly say it has never done any weird or wonderful moves. Well thats not quite true as in the beta testing days of the SmoothStepper it once did a move that was not as commanded but that was a problem with the SS's beta plugin and that was sorted. In fact I have never had a weird move with any of my machines, 3 knee mills, 1 VMC, 2 lathes and a coil winder, maybe I am just lucky.

    Oh and BTW if I thought Mach was unsafe I too would not use as my lathe is reasonably big (23 inch swing) and could rip itself (and me) to bits in seconds, also the Chiron could do similar serious damage to itself and me.

    Hood

  4. #52
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    Well had a three weeks of back and forth emails with Chiron, kept getting asked for this and that and in the end I was told they had no info on the machine. I was a bit annoyed as it had wasted 3 weeks but well I would just have to go in blind and see if I could get things dismantled without doing any damage. I was planning on doing it at the weekend but then I saw an add on eBay for a company in Germany , they do retrofits with Mach and had done a Chiron FZ18. Here it is CNC-Steuerung Retrofit einer Chiron Fräsmaschine CNC-Artikeln - CNC-Steuerung-Retrofit mit IP-Steuerung
    On the off chance that they had a parts manual and that the FZ18 was similar, I emailed and Stefan was very kind and drove over to the owners and took some photos of the spindle drawing. I studied these drawings and it did look as if it might be similar and even better it looked like all I had to do was remove 6 capscrews from the nose.

    I decided to give it a go and it was very easy and just as I suspected, the springs looked ok and were well greased but I decided to get new ones anyway. They arrived today and I pulled the spindle again and fitted them, there was a slight difference in the length of the stack but not a great deal, maybe 2 or 3mm. Anyway shoved everything back and tested again with the force gauge and it was slightly better but not a huge amount, gauge showed just over 1,600 lbs so with the ratio I had built in that meant my drawbar force was about 530 - 550 lb-f. So still a lot lower than I was expecting.
    Have emailed Chiron again to see if they can give me any numbers for the standard force but I am not holding my breath. Have also emailed Stefan just in case the info is in the manual, I am holding out more hope of a favourable reply from Stefan than from Chiron
    Few pics below showing the setup and the old springs etc.

    Hood

  5. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hood View Post
    Well had a three weeks of back and forth emails with Chiron, kept getting asked for this and that and in the end I was told they had no info on the machine. I was a bit annoyed as it had wasted 3 weeks but well I would just have to go in blind and see if I could get things dismantled without doing any damage. I was planning on doing it at the weekend but then I saw an add on eBay for a company in Germany , they do retrofits with Mach and had done a Chiron FZ18. Here it is CNC-Steuerung Retrofit einer Chiron Fräsmaschine CNC-Artikeln - CNC-Steuerung-Retrofit mit IP-Steuerung
    On the off chance that they had a parts manual and that the FZ18 was similar, I emailed and Stefan was very kind and drove over to the owners and took some photos of the spindle drawing. I studied these drawings and it did look as if it might be similar and even better it looked like all I had to do was remove 6 capscrews from the nose.

    I decided to give it a go and it was very easy and just as I suspected, the springs looked ok and were well greased but I decided to get new ones anyway. They arrived today and I pulled the spindle again and fitted them, there was a slight difference in the length of the stack but not a great deal, maybe 2 or 3mm. Anyway shoved everything back and tested again with the force gauge and it was slightly better but not a huge amount, gauge showed just over 1,600 lbs so with the ratio I had built in that meant my drawbar force was about 530 - 550 lb-f. So still a lot lower than I was expecting.
    Have emailed Chiron again to see if they can give me any numbers for the standard force but I am not holding my breath. Have also emailed Stefan just in case the info is in the manual, I am holding out more hope of a favourable reply from Stefan than from Chiron
    Few pics below showing the setup and the old springs etc.

    Hood
    Hmm interesting...perhaps the material of the new springs has a lower spring constant than what is intended? I.e. carbon steel would be significantly lower than chrome vanadium..but you probably already thought of that.

    Its amazing how you can find out pretty much anything about even the most ancient machines if you are willing to do some thoughtful googling and make some phone calls..theres always someone out there with the info. Can that guy somehow get you a copy of a service manual? This might be your only chance..not for the drawbar but just for the future

  6. #54
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    The springs are to the same standard as stated in the manual DIN2093 so I assume they are identical but maybe not. Here is where I got them Mubea - Products & Technologies - Industry - Products - Disc Springs - Standard Disc Springs - Theory - Classification according to DIN 2093
    The manual wouldnt really have a huge amount in it that I would need as I have had almost everything else apart and it was only the spindle that was a mystery to me.
    Regarding google etc, well I tried all of that, even emailed a few companies that had FZ12's in the hope they could give me info on the spindle but never even got the courtesy of replies from them

    Have you done anything to yours? or got any further info?

    Hood

  7. #55
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    Hood, 530 - 550 lb-f. seams awfully low to me. I take it this is BT-30? Maybe you can change the stack configuration and get some more force? Basically double 2 washers before the flip. Also on my Haas drawbar is its not slightly preloaded before I install it. It will be way on the low side. You can always make a custom shim washer to help with preload.

  8. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by acannell View Post
    Hmm interesting...perhaps the material of the new springs has a lower spring constant than what is intended? I.e. carbon steel would be significantly lower than chrome vanadium..but you probably already thought of that.

    Its amazing how you can find out pretty much anything about even the most ancient machines if you are willing to do some thoughtful googling and make some phone calls..theres always someone out there with the info. Can that guy somehow get you a copy of a service manual? This might be your only chance..not for the drawbar but just for the future
    i meant more like you had success finding that guy with the spindle drawing! it sounds like you have all the info you can really get regarding the springs on your machine, unless there is some secret someone knows as to why the force seems so low. are you absolutely sure you are using the right pull studs? 540 lbs is about where my drawbar will end up..and my machine is 2hp...so there has to be something funny going on with yours since yours is much bigger..right? how many springs and what are the spring dimensions and orientation in your stack? ill do a "2nd head" calculation for you and maybe ill come up with something different that would be a clue.

    i bought some "BT30" pull studs off ebay from china, and when they got here i discovered they were wayyy too short. it wasnt anyones fault really, it looks like there is a BT30 pull stud geometry that is most common and when you buy generic studs they end up being that style. but i did more research and there are 20 to 30 different "BT30" pull stud geometries for various machines..and it turns out my machine actually takes a custom pull stud that nobody sells. btw the chinese pull studs were only $5 each shipped qty 2 and looked great..its a shame they wont fit..but i found someone on here who gets them custom made and sold me a few for a great price so im good..

    so if your pull stud is too long you would get reduced drawbar force..

    as far as my spindle..i think ive got it licked. by using new chrome vanadium springs i should be up near where dyna says the force should be (300kg)...whats odd is they seem to specify carbon steel springs in the drawing which would not be strong enough..hmm oh well

  9. #57
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    It does seem low but I dont really want to mess with altering things until I know whether that is what its meant to be or not, hopefully Stefan or Chiron will come up with some numbers.
    Hood

  10. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hood View Post
    It does seem low but I dont really want to mess with altering things until I know whether that is what its meant to be or not, hopefully Stefan or Chiron will come up with some numbers.
    Hood
    sounds good...just for curiousity can you tell me about what you all ready have? im drooling to calculate what the constant should be....spring ID, OD, thickness and overall uncompressed height...# of springs and orientation ..what has my life come to

  11. #59
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    The springs are 25mm OD , 12.2mm ID and 1.5mm thick. There are 96 of them (same as drawing) and I stacked them the same way as they were when I pulled it apart, 2 one way then 2 the other. Pic from manual doesnt really show what they are stacked like as it only shows a rough representation of the lower and upper few but it does appear to be the same way..

    Cant really remember what the orig spindle motor was but think about 8Kw
    Hood

  12. #60
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    oh sorry, height is 2.05mm height.
    Hood

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