[AFSarge]

Hi,
I was wondering if anyone could advise me about the Patriot VFD 3 in 1 machines. I am a machinist and have worked larger single type machines; lathes, mills, saws and grinders. Most of my experience has been with the Air Force in aircraft maintenance (Field Maintenance). With that I can tell you that I've got a lot of experience working with very little in the way of tooling to get big jobs done. The old joke was "We can do just about anything with almost nothing" or something like that and were I'm at now it is still that way.
I guess my basic question is, is this a good machine for home use? How big can you go on parts machined?
I'm getting ready to retire and I guess I'll never be able to get over the machining bug bite I have and I doubt I'll be doing much other than restoring some old cars and some gun work. Unless I go and build a shop large enough for some big machines I'll have to settle for a 3 in 1 type with the space and power I have available.
Well, anyone out there able to help on this? Might there be another machining center out there that is better or could handle larger work? The only thing I'm worried about is the mill Z axis. It seem very limited. But I can see using the lathe part as some milling and boring operations if there is enough room to align the centers of parts and spindle.
I've never used one of these machines nor have I seen one up close so I really do not know much about them. I knew someone that had another common brand but he told me that it was okay for small stuff and it had other limiting problems.
Most of the machines I've worked on have been conventional, I've recently have gotten some CNC experience. A lot of my experience are with older machines and the smallest of them would be the old Hardinge bench top mill and the old South-bend lathes with leather belting. I just don't want to put out a lot of money to find out that I need something different or bigger.
Any advice, suggestions or help will be greatly appreciated!

Thak Y'all for your time.

[johnwell]

I, kinda have the same Question(s) as you do, AFSarge. There are no recent vids to be found (by me) on Youtube either. I can't seem to shake the impression that this machine seems a bit of secretive...heh heh. No company (sales) vids either which makes it even more ....uhhh...questionable? I could very well be wrong though...

[xjdubber]

Allthough I do not have any personal experience with it, I was contacted by a fellow locally that wanted me to help him to get the lathe part working for him. As I really did not have time to go to his location and look at it and he figured I should be able to figure it out in hour as to how it was all suposed to work and he only wanted to pay two hours max, I never ended up seeing the machine. However knowing what kind of machine it is based off, I would think that rigidity would be a really issue.

[johnwell]

yeah, from what (little) I read so far is the rigidity would be an issue on such a small machine, but for what I intended to do with such a machine (small to very small parts/things) it may not be an issue for me at all. I do understand you can not compare this to ...serious production machines it may very well serve the hobby type applications and, if desired, grow into bigger and better? It's still a lot of money and i continue to be somewhat amazed that the seller did not attempt to put out any video's themselves.

[sharpshooter90]

Rigidity is really a function of mass despite some theories to the contrary. So you have to compare the machine to others of similar weight to get an idea of where it fits. At 900 # it's heavier than those old style 3 in 1 machines and slots in between the Tormach 1100 and the 770 units. I have had experience with 3 of the Shoptask/Shopmaster machines. The first was in the service when I ran one of the 90's models with the quadra lift option and fitted with cnc. We did a lot of mobile repair work and some custom work and for gun work we found it adequate. After I went back to civilian life I bought a used Bridgemill model and found the addition of the mill head support on the tailstock was a big improvement in milling. After a couple years, I sold the Bridgemill and got a new Patriot for its advances in drive system and larger capacities. Using it within it's design envelope produces good results for me, and I have stretched it's capabilities a couple of times with some creative setups. JT is the guy you deal with at Shopmaster, and he is easy going, but not fond of long conversations. Its pretty hard to find another company that has been around longer, and whether you bought in the 80's, 90's or up to today, when you call Shopmaster, you will most likely be dealing with the same guy who designed your machine and knows it inside out. They don't advertise anywhere and don't make videos or brochures, so you will only hear about them on web searches or by word of mouth. My impression is that they have stepped out of the retailing " rat race" and are happy to sell machines without any sort of pushy effort.

[AFSarge]

Thanks Sharpshooter90, From the information I've been able to get on the Patriot from Shopmaster is limited. I haven't called them just did the web search. I was a little afraid of calling them and getting the high pressure sales pitch. I've had a few of them and usually not getting any of my questions answered.
I have seen a few videos on this machine but nothing that has real good info on it. So if you have one, I guess my questions to you would be are you happy with it? Is it a good setup for home use with limited space and regular house power? My biggest concern is with the Mill Z axis and the biggest/tallest part that could be machined. Their site only gives 11.5" of travel with 2"-14" between spindle and table. Their pictures seem to to show a lot of room but pictures can be deceiving. Most of my work on it will be building/repairing some classic cars that I own, some gun work and some other work as well. I had someone tell me that the milling head column is able to move up and down by hand and with the CNC and is used much like the table Z axis on a big Mill. That is separate to the Quill feed of 3.5". But I have not been able to confirm that yet.
Like I said before, I've worked the bigger machines most of my life in the Air Force and the Air Guard. Early in my active duty days the equipment was old WWII stuff. I worked one lathe when stationed at Hickam AFB Hi that had a 6' chuck and we needed a small crane to change the chucks but most were the 13" to 16" chucks. Funny thing that I noticed over the years is that 90% of the work was always way less than the machine capacity. In fact, I believe most work on a lathe rarely was bigger than 6" diam and not longer than 24" , Mill work not much taller than 12" and about 15" X 15". Even most of my work in civilian shops was mostly the same. Don't get me wrong, I have worked some huge parts on big machines and with some very creative setups, but the norm seems to be within with what I've stated above. But then most of my work has been in the repair/modification of aircraft, weapon systems and automotive parts.
Well, any information you could give me will be of big help. I just do not want to spend 9 to 10 K on something and it will be to small. From what you've written, the people at Shopmaster do not seem to be the pushy type, so I might give them a call in the next few weeks. I'm hoping to find another place within the next 5-6 years that will be more adaptable to a small shop environment but for now I'm hoping the Patriot types will suit me.
Thank you for your time. I hope you had a Happy New Year! Y'all stay safe.

[sharpshooter90]

Sarge,
As far as being happy with the machine, I'm on my third model, so I think that speaks for itself. I think its the best value for the money in a combo unit, and if your space limits you , then there isn't really any other choice out there. I think the Shopmaster folks recognized what you are saying many years ago. The majority of lathe work for guys like us happens in a 24-30" length range. They built in the 17" swing for the benefit of the car guys. The milling envelope on this unit is easily within your 15 X 15 dimension. Height wise, my machine comes in at 14" max above the table, but that is with no tool in the spindle- if you put an end mill in the collet, it will protrude at least 1", so that maximum workable height is going to be 13". I have 4" quill travel and 8" travel on the mill head for a total of 12". I've run into a couple of boring jobs that just wouldn't fit under the head, so I made a fixture to mount the block horizontally and use the lathe spindle. If you are 5 or 6 years away from getting a large shop, you will easily get your full value out of this unit in that time just in the learning of CNC.

[AFSarge]

Thanks Sharpshooter,
That is what I needed to know! I figured that the height issue would be limited to the length of the cutter sticking out of the chuck. Just about everything else I've been able to find on the Patriot seems to be the best bang for the buck and it is the first I've seen that dealt with the rigidity problem of the milling head. The others I've looked at offer longer length on the lathe part but the mill is still limited. Still others have a price that you might just as well spend the money on a full size machine. I'm not planing on going in to a business of my own but would like to have the capability to expand a little and do what I've done in the past mainly for myself and a few of my gun nut and motor head buddies. I'll be giving them a call with in the next two weeks. Hopefully I'll be able to have one on order by the end of summer. That is when I'll be retiring From the Air Guard.
Thanks again for the info, you are the first one I've been able to get a hold of that has one of these machines. I'll let you know how it turns out. Again thank you and stay safe!

[Quadramaster]

My machine is a 2001 vintage manual Shopmaster 2000 Eldorado, with the Quadralift option. I'm in the process of mounting a DRO on it. I've made a few small machining and lathe projects and it works very well for my needs. The newer machines have a longer X axis travel, but I think the milling head Z travel with my Quadralift is similar to the new machines. I'm pretty inexperienced as a machinist, but here are some links you may not have seen showing you what other people are doing with their machines...

WATCH VIDEOS - SHOPMASTER

Welcome to The Alchemist

Delphi Forums Login - Welcome! Please log in.

Home

When I was checking my links, many of them no longer worked so this is all I have, sorry...

Mark -

[Chance0219]

Hello I am new to the forums, and i am new to milling or machining and I have a few questions about the new Shopmaster Patriot cnc mill combo first do you have to have 3 phase 220 power? 2ond can it be upgraded as your skills increase? as i said i am a extreme newbie any help would be grateful ...

[Jaxian]

Chance: The Patriot only requires single phase 220 to run. They have a built in VFD that changes the voltages and phases for the motors and servos.

As far as my feelings on the Patriot I have to say I am pretty split about it. I waited for 9 months to get mine. Most of it in the dark with money out of my pocket. All said and done though it did finally arrive in great shape with all the parts (and i bought every option). Was very happy. JT doesn't chat..period. He will answer your questions, correctly and succinctly. He will always be there to answer you.

Design wise it is in a funny spot. It makes the little hobby machines kind of look like toys. Sherlines, Taig's, etc. That said it is a VERY unconventional design, you will find some pretty standard operations don't happen like they should. Built quality was standard Chinese. Not too impressive. You MUST check everything before powering it up.

I have no experience with a Smithy Talon series CNC, so no input on those. The Tormach are basically exact replicas of the big industrial machines scaled down (minus the full cabinet). So even though they copied, they used very good examples and it's evident in their performance. That said, they are double the price.

I had my Patriot for about 3 months, about 2 1/2 of that I spent having to fix it before I finally realized it wasn't going to achieve the results I needed it to. I do a lot of custom auto and motorcycle stuff and you are not doing suspension trailing arms and big pieces like that in the Patriot. That said, JT backed his word 100%, he took the machine back no questions asked and refunded my money. Really have to say he was one of the most honest and no bs guys I have ever dealt with.

That said. You really have to ask yourself what exactly you want to do. I now have a Lagun FTV1 mill and Tida 15x40 lathe manual machines. They are beasts for home work and both are really just retired shop level machines. On the plus side they can be had for a song if you can find a honest machinery dealer (good luck). The size of my work and performance envelope expanded hugely with the larger machines and together they cost what my Patriot 2012 loaded did. So cash wise it was a wash.

Of course you give up CNC but as my machinery mentor keeps reminding me, they made all the same stuff without CNC, it just took longer. So if you have time, and since you can't rush a Patriot, it's not rigid enough you must, you might want to keep that in mind. Of course you will have to actually buy the support items (rotary tables and dividing heads and such) to get all the same functions but being able to buy all your supplies off the shelf is nice.

I have to admit I lusted after a Shopmaster for 20 years before finally pulling the trigger. When it was finally here I was the happiest guy around. When it finally left I can't say I was sad at all. Disappointed but not sad.

I want to get back into CNC now and did a recon of the Tormach showroom. The 1100 was a beauty, very pricey compared to a Patriot though. They had a ten year old one in for service and it had held together nicely in a student environment. My Patriot was starting to crack around the tables and have issue after 3 months of barely being used. That said even the Tormach 1100 is for only small model sized work. CNC wise it has a very low spindle speed, small motor, and isn't as rigid as one would like for doing bigger stuff and holding tight tolerance. Great for modelers though. I remember looking at the ATC on the Tormach and the biggest tool in it was the size of the smallest I use on my Lagun.

I just made an adapter plate to put a hydraulic tracer on my lathe. Even cutting very tight to final size in my horizontal bandsaw it would have taken forever to square it up and do the machining I needed done on the Tormach. So passed on that machine. I would not have undertaken that on the Patriot, not sure it would have fit even then it would probably have destroyed the thing.

I am presently searching for a used industrial CNC VMC. All I can say is don't even consider taking that path unless you have lots of time and money. They are a can of worms best avoided at the hobby or small shop level if at all possible. The number of extra expense items is insane. Imagine having to shell out $1200 bucks for a 55gal drum of coolant just to get started. That's the standard tank size on one. Everything is like that so really the Tormach and maybe the Smithy Talon I know nothing about would be a nice step down at half the price. Then the Shopmaster, then way below it all the little bench top machines.

You just have to be VERY honest with yourself about what you are going to do with it and how much you want to spend. Having manual machining experience is really a MUST for using the Patriot well. It has a bunch of performance issues only someone reasonably proficient in machining already would be able to work around to get good results. That said nothing else in it's price range can touch it.

Expect to work on it, a lot. This is not something to get and treat like an appliance. You will be unhappy. Sorry to write a book but hopefully it was helpful.

[Chance0219]

like i said i am an extreme newbie to machining i have degree in electrical engineering but have always wanted to do hobby machining have a few thing's that i want tmake at home... I was on the fence for the shopmaster patriot but am also looking at the Tormach 770 have a 3500 sq ft warehouse have plenty of room but want to do some easy milling to start with.... also have been looking for some instruction in the San Antonio Tx area.. before i pull the trigger and get a cnc mill of any kind... Thank you for you honest opinion of the shopmater partriot.... i tend to over research items before i purchase them and this is no different so it looks like the tormach might be the machine for me atm untill i can fine something different .....

[AFSarge]

Chance,
No such thing as over researching especially if you know very little about it. Knowledge is power as they say. Here I am and I've been an aircraft machinist for years but know very little about these 3 in 1 type machines. I've stumbled over the Patriot in my research. So I wanted to get a feel about them from others, if the machine is worth it and reliable. Or is there something better out there.
I've worked conventional (manual) full size machines manufactured from before WWII (some with leather belting) to the ones manufactured today. The Air Force started to perches CNC machines in the mid 1990s. Mostly because conventional machines were not being made in this country anymore. (Sad state of affairs in my opinion that a lot of our manufacturing had to be move overseas for many reasons, to many for this form.) So most of my experience has been on the larger conventional machines, though I do have some time on CNC. I know a little and will be taking a class soon to learn more.
My suggestion to you, if you know little or nothing about machining, is to check out a local high school or community collage and see if they have workshops or classes on machining. It will be well worth the money, time and effort if for nothing else, to learn about safety around these machines. It really doesn't take much for one of these things to do a lot of damage or lose a body part or worse. I'm sure you know what I mean dealing with electricity. I know in my area, the community collage would offer weekend or night classes for the home hobbyist and I remember machining classes a few years ago. It will also give you some knowledge of terminology, setups and measuring equipment use. Even though these smaller 3 in 1 machines are kind of sold as being simple to use, they are not unless you have some experience. I can tell you that I know a few people that went and bought one of these machines, put out a lot of money only to do serious damage to the machine and never used it again or have to put out more money to repair it.
I hope I didn't put a stop to your interest in machining as that was not my intent. I would hate to see someone put out a lot of money for something and it sits in a corner gathering dust because they didn't take the time to learn how to use it. One other danger you might encounter in machining is the bug bite. Once bitten it is hard to get rid of and it can get out of control in buying more tooling. I know I'm one that got bit years ago and fell in love with machining. I'm one of the few that can truly say I love my job. But I'm retiring in Oct. so that is why I'm looking in to one of these machines.
Good Luck and stay safe!
Robert

[Chance0219]

Thank you Sarge that's what i intend to do is call the community collage and see if they have a class in continuing education section... and see if its what i want to do.
I have been doing a lot more research and can make do with a manual lathe with milling head and later retrofit it or just sell it and go buy a real cnc machine... many thanks to all who have responded,,,

[Chance0219]

Ok I found a class on introduction to CNC class at community college continuing education class.... start Tuesday the 21st... and now time is moving so slowly ....

[AFSarge]

Cool, just be patient, remember, all good things come to those that wait. I'll have to send you an article posted in a magazine, Mechanics Illustrated from 1982, maybe I should post it on line here if they will let me. It was titled "What makes a craftsman" it had a lot of words of wisdom in that short article and it inspired me to work harder and smarter at my craft. I wound up earning a patch on my uniform because of that article. It was the SAC Master Technician patch, as a young SSgt it was better than any metal they could have given me. It was something you had to earn and your supervisor had to put you in for it without you knowing it. Then it had to be approved through others up the chain. Not many got to wear it.
Problem is, I really don't know if posting it would do any good. To many people out there just seem like they don't care anymore. I'm old enough to remember when you bought something made in the USA it meant something and it was of high quality and the stuff out of Japan was just cheap junk. Don't get me wrong, I still see some good stuff from here but most of it is coming from overseas. I guess most Americans want it cheap today and do not care about quality. Even my Dad, he would complain about all our manufacturing jobs going overseas and yet going to the hardware store, if he saw something he needed and it was cheaper coming from China he bought that one. I pointed that out to him once, asking why he was buying the one from China. He told me that for $10.00 he was getting 2 tape measures and if one broke he would have a spare. I said yes he would but he may be putting a guy here out of work buying the ones out of China. Boy did he get mad at me. Put them back and went back the next day so I wouldn't know he bought them. I know it is a lot more complicated than that, with government reg.s, unions and other stuff like the EPA and OSHA. I guess I'm disappointed that America has lost the edge on manufacturing here. I feel we could and should do a lot better.
Well, sorry to bend your ear on that, let me know if you are interested in that article. Let me know how things turn out for you. I'll be looking for a class next year on programing out here.

[sharpshooter90]

Sarge,
Interesting post- there are a lot of guys like your Dad. Everyone posting on this forum is using a computer made overseas as well. However, the 3 in 1 machine cannot be accused of shipping jobs overseas because before JT came up with the idea (about the same time you were getting your patch), the only hobby machine available here were those little craftsman lathes. There was no small mill at all that I can recall, except some really expensive stuff from Germany. So the 3 in 1 machine really created a whole new industry, and while not creating manufacturing jobs here, it did open up a whole world of machining that was not available before and created a lot of jobs in the tool sales industry.

[bhurts]

I just want to ask a question about the post by Jaxian. He made very good points about the cost issues with using used industrial cnc machines. His comment on 55 gallons of coolant for 1200 dollars was not at all accurate though. Yes you can spend that much on 55 gallons of concentrate but that's not needed. A 5 gallon pail for 80-100 dollars will mix up enough to fill my 80 gallon coolant tank. It has to be mixed with water and only 3-5% is coolant concentrate. It will last 6 months to a year for a part timer with occasional adds of water and coolant mix. The real cost of used machinery is in repairs. It will cost you 1000+ just to get a tech to look at it. If something electrical or mechanical is broken the skys the limit on what they might charge.

Ben

[AFSarge]

Sharpshooter,
I was only speaking in general terms. There is a whole lot more going on in this country that is driving work overseas. I never meant to single out any one business or product. You are right about opening a whole new industry and allowing a large group to do work they otherwise could not get done. Not to mention starting up a small businesses or workshops.
When I was talking about my Dad, I was kind of heckling him a bit because he would always talk about how the jobs were going overseas and Americans were losing jobs. It was big in the news too and there was a study out about how Americans were buying cheaper stuff from overseas causing more jobs to move over there because of labor costs and other things. My Dad was a Carpenter and in the union and had been complaining about it earlier in the day so I had to say something when he wanted to buy the tape measures from China. I really give him a pass though as he grew up during the depression and was dirt poor to boot. I really don't blame people for buying things made overseas, it is extremely hard not to these days and money is tight for most of us. I guess I was reminiscing when it was hard to find things made outside of the US, even the toys I had when I was a kid were made here. Just before I wrote back to Chance I was reading an article about a B-17E being restored. There was some damage done to one of the wing spars and it needs to be replaced. It is an aluminum box beam that tapers toward the wing tip. Literally thousands of those B-17 Bombers were made during the war but no company here in the US is capable of making that beam anymore. All the equipment was sold to China some years back.
It kind of saddens me to know that at one time we were the biggest exporters of machinery and other products, now we are the biggest importers. One thing that recently teed me off was a week ago, Lockheed Aircraft, manufactures of the new F-35 is having a hard time keeping up with deliveries because of parts shortages. So they announced that they were trying to get the parts from China and trying to get Congress to buy off on it. It is illegal as all hell to do that and I think it short changes the American workers too. So pleas forgive me for sounding off here, I'm an amateur history buff so I may go off on a tangent now and then.
I'll see if I can post that article I have, it is inspiring and has some words of wisdom in it. Again, sorry if I sounded like I was against everything made overseas, it's been one of those weeks.