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  1. #61
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
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    24216
    Quote Originally Posted by usfwalden View Post
    I honestly wasn't very impressed with the galil control and amp for the short time I had them installed. Maybe my perceptions are colored by my sore feelings towards galil but I seemed to get a lot more a lot quicker with a few quick pot turns on my a-m-c drives than out of the galil's software settings with documentation scattered thoughout 180 page manual.
    I have used galil/AMC combination for quite a few years now, for servo feedback used in the torque mode, there is not really any adjustment required on the drive as in torque mode the gain is set to max and the feedback to min.
    There is a instructional section of the Galil manual to set the PID in steps using the Terminal s/w.
    I have also used the Galil tuning software but end up tweeking it after with the 'manual' method.
    Al.
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    77
    I'm using the 30a8's in voltage mode on my x, y, and z inside a position loop on my dspmc/ip with good results. I'm about to install my troyke nc10a 4th axis on the machine; it has an sem servo with a differential encoder and tachometer. I'm going to set the 30a8 for it up in velocity mode with the tachamoter for feedback inside a position loop with the encoder on the dspmc/ip. If that goes well I may just re-invent the wheel and hook up the tachometers on my x,y, and z and run them in velocity mode too. I hate to change something that's working well but amc seems to really recomend velocity mode so depending on the results with the 4th axis I may try it.

  3. #63
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    Dec 2003
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    24216
    Quote Originally Posted by usfwalden View Post
    I hate to change something that's working well but amc seems to really recomend velocity mode so depending on the results with the 4th axis I may try it.
    Thats odd? I have the original hardcopy of the AMC engineering notes, (I think it is pdf on the site now), in the Mode Selection Chapter they state " Current or Torque Mode: Torque mode is recommended if the servo amplifier is used with a digital position controller"
    In torque mode, the tach is not used.

    Quote Originally Posted by usfwalden View Post
    Thanks that will help. Did you open the gear box and count teeth the figure the gear ratios?

    It's a 602 but it looks like Excello manufactured these specifically for Lesnor Maehr along with the position wizard table.
    I have the model with XLO at the top, I believe these were made in Canada before Excello closed the plant here due to Union/labour problems.
    I just rotated the input shaft and counted the tool holder revolutions.
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    77
    I pretty much posted all my info on the mach forums and not over here on cnczone because the rules for posting pictures here were really a pain. Here are some links though to the kind of response I got with very little tuning with the 30a8 amps in voltage mode in a position loop on the dspmc.

    10 count step move with 3,000 count accel
    http://www.ecutune.com/mill/10-3000.jpg

    10 count step move with 30,000 count accel
    http://www.ecutune.com/mill/10-30000.jpg

    10 count step move with 300,000 count accel
    http://www.ecutune.com/mill/10-300000.jpg

    100 count step move with 3,000 accel
    http://www.ecutune.com/mill/100-3000.jpg

    100 count step move with 30,000 accel
    http://www.ecutune.com/mill/100-30000.jpg

    100 count step move with 300,000 accel
    http://www.ecutune.com/mill/100-300000.jpg

    10,000 count step move with 300,000 accel
    http://www.ecutune.com/mill/10000-300000.jpg

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
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    24216
    I have never used the dspmc, or Mach for that matter, but it would be interesting to see what the difference is using AMC Torque mode method.
    Al.
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    77
    Ok, so if I understand this right...
    I have two primaries
    they are connected in parallel for 104,110,120
    they are connected in series for 208,220,240
    they have multiple taps to be selected between according to the V per leg

    So, if I connected 240 to it according to its design I'd get the same voltage out of the secondaries as i get with 120 connected to it according to its design?

    If I wanted to get more voltage out of the secondaries I could connect the 120 according to the instructions for 104 but that might overlaod the transformer? It would also up the voltage going to the regulated power supplies but voltage regulators can usually handle quite a bit more V, right?



    Quote Originally Posted by usfwalden View Post
    Ok, I took things apart and did some continuity testing.

    between the transformer and regulator card there are 7 wires:
    1 brown goes to + on regulator board
    2 red goes to a bridge on the regulator board ..call it bridge 1
    3 red goes to the other center leg of bridge 1
    4 grey goes to another bridge on the regulator card..call it bridge 2
    5 orange goes to the other cener leg of bridge 2
    6 white goes to ground rail of regulator card
    7 white goes to ground rail of regulator card

    The regulator card seems to provide two power supplies
    the red out comes from a ua7812 which is a 12v regulator
    the brown out comes from a ua7912 which is a -12v regulator
    the orange out comes from a ua78hgkc which is an adjustable 5 to 24v regulator
    the black out comes from another ua78hg

    there are 8 wires between the ac input wiring block and the transformer
    there is continuity between the 1st 4
    1 orange
    2 black
    3 brown
    4 blue
    there is continuity between the 2nd 4
    5 grey
    6 white with black stripe
    7 white with brown strip
    8 white with blue stripe (ac low connects here through the power light and circuit breaker)

    if ac in is:
    120 or 240 then ac high connects to 1
    110 or 220 then ac high connects to 2
    104 or 208 then ac high connects to 3


    if ac in is 108, 110, or 120 then 4 is jumpered to 8
    and
    if 104 ac high (3) is jumpered to 7
    if 110 ac high (2) is jumpered to 6
    if 120 ac high (1) is jumpered to 5

    if ac in is 208 4 is jumpered to 5
    if ac in is 210 4 is jumpered to 6
    if ac in is 220 4 is jumpered to 7

  7. #67
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    Dec 2003
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    24216
    You mentioned the servo's are running OK with the existing set up, so is the object of increasing the voltage is for the 20S motor? I don't think the existing transformer is going to handle it.
    It is not a good idea to increase the input to regulators as they now work that much harder (Current= Heat).
    If you look through the A-M-C listing, the bare minimum I personally would consider using with the 20S is the B40A40, Note the AC version with power supply uses 3 phase supply!
    This would indicate that you will need a pretty large power supply for the separate fed version.
    Al.
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    77
    No, If I were to tinker with the dc power supply to get more voltage it would only be to get more rpm's out of the 4 motion axes. I'm not in any rush or highly motivated to do this. The earlier question about why I'm running 60v on my motion axes just got me interested in figuring out the power supply so I know what I have.

    The ac versions of the amc amps accept but don't require 3 phase. The docs say to use any 2 of the 3 ac in terminals to hook up single phase. When I find a b60a40ac it will at least be easy to swap it in.


    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    You mentioned the servo's are running OK with the existing set up, so is the object of increasing the voltage is for the 20S motor? I don't think the existing transformer is going to handle it.
    It is not a good idea to increase the input to regulators as they now work that much harder (Current= Heat).
    If you look through the A-M-C listing, the bare minimum I personally would consider using with the 20S is the B40A40, Note the AC version with power supply uses 3 phase supply!
    This would indicate that you will need a pretty large power supply for the separate fed version.
    Al.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    77
    What's better than 1 drive that's not big enough....
    2 drives that aren't big enough

    I picked up another b30a40ac on ebay
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=260490257619
    figure if I collect 4 of them I can get rid of the dc power supply and be able to run my position axes at 360ipm.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    77
    So 8 pole = servo and 4 pole = rpm is regulated by frequency?



    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    In most cases these spindle motors are still 4 pole induction motors, albeit, as Larken said, well balanced.
    They have a pulse generator on them to regulate the rpm very closely via the VFD style drive.
    To use the Fanuc servo motors as a spindle you will need min. 120vdc
    Al.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    24216
    The pole count does not indicate the type of motor, the rpm whether servo or induction motor is governed by the pole count and the applied frequency.
    A PM servo is capable of running at synchronism, (at the frequency of the applied supply).
    An induction motor can never be run exactly at synchronism to the applied frequency, the closest is at something like 5~7 cycles under.
    The armature rotates, or attempts to rotate at the applied frequency.
    In a 2 pole (1 pole pr), there is one electrical rotation of the field to one mechanical rotation.
    e.g. RPM = 60hz x 60 sec/(pole pairs) = 3600rpm.
    A 4 pole motor has two electrical rotations per mechanical so the result be 60hz x 60sec/2 = 1800rpm.
    Change the frequency, change the rpm.
    Al.
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    77
    Thanks,

    Any suggestions on how can I identify if a fanuc spindle motor is an induction or permanent magnet motor?

    The shipper of that 20s motor didn't send the encoder cable and shipped it a box too small to fit it with the ends left open and just some newspaper taped over the ends--so of course it arrived with the cap broken. I'm in the process of trying to get a refund for it and return it.

    Spindle motor shopping again I'm re-examining alternatives. There are still some nice 20s motors out there. There is also a nice 6s spindle motor with a 12k rpm max.

    What's the low rpm torque like on the induction motors as compared to servos? Any lessons, suggestions, or thoughts that might help steer me with this decision?

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
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    24216
    A couple of ways to tell PM or induction, short the 3 stator wires together and try and spin the armature, if PM, it will act like a brake, the other is to spin the armature and see if a generated AC signal is output, if there is, again its PM.
    Most high end CNC controllers that use Induction style motors used with a variable frequency drive on the spindle have a pulse generator or encoder for precise speed control, there have been examples of motors on gantry crane lifts that can hold a load stationary, and also elevator examples where close to DC performance has been seen.
    The tests I have done with the 5S motor as a spindle performs nice, I have yet to try the lathe threading and the C axis positioning.
    Al.
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    77
    Have you noticed any difference in using a drive with sinusoidal vs a drive with trapezoidal commutation? I've been keeping my eye out for a suitable size parker gemini servo drive as well as the amc brushless drive. Think of any others I might want to look into/for?

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    24216
    I am using the A-M-C BLDC drive and I found it surprisingly smooth with the 8 pole Fanuc.
    Sinusoidal is quieter, but I didn't find any low speed cogging etc.
    I am using BLDC on the direct drive ballscrews also.
    Reliance now Allen-Bradley are nice matches and also Yaskawa are reportedly good, but I have not tried them.
    Al.
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.

  16. #76
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    77
    I saw a good deal on a 10s with a 2000p coder, straight shaft and a timing pulley already on it so I grabbed it. I'm thinking I'll go ahead and use this to make the switch over to a servo with timing belt with one of my b30a40ac drives.


    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=220500573942

    Does anyone know the part #'s for the mating connectors and pins to match?

  17. #77
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    24216
    Here is the MS connector #'s, you will find the number on the outside of the shell or the insert itself.
    Al.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.

  18. #78
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    77
    so if I got it right...


    the connector on the coder cap is ms3102a-20-29pw

    so the mating connectors to get for the cable are
    ms3106a-20-29sw for a straight connector
    or
    ms3108a-20-29sw for a 90 degree connector

    is that right?

    way too expensive to get these wrong--ouch

  19. #79
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    24216
    Yes and 18-10S for the Power.
    Try Cannon CA series, they are an economy version of the MS.
    Amp and Amphenol are the other two principle manuf.
    Your right, they don't give them away!.
    Al.
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.

  20. #80
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    77
    They go to a bigger power connector on the 10s and 20s. I looked up the 90 degree 22-22s connector for my motor and undertand why fanuc uses a 90 degree rubber cap instead. The 90 degree ms connector was something like $108

    --makes the $60 straight connector seem like a bargain

    I may offer to buy the power connector off the 20s with the smashed encoder cap after our paypal dispute is resolved. I really wish that guy had just shipped my motor complete and responsibly packaged.


    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    Yes and 18-10S for the Power.
    Try Cannon CA series, they are an economy version of the MS.
    Amp and Amphenol are the other two principle manuf.
    Your right, they don't give them away!.
    Al.

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