[Titaniumboy]

I've been thinking of upgrading from my G0704 mill to an RF4-sized mill, and then doing a CNC conversion. Then I got to thinking, if I'm going to go to all the trouble of doing a CNC conversion, why wouldn't I do the conversion to an Industrial Hobbies / IH clone / Machine Tool Warehouse MD001? The allure of the IH mill / MTW MD001 is the huge 12" Y-travel.

So I started looking for plans and/or kits available for the IH mill / MTW MD001. I'm not finding any plans, and there aren't really any good kit options out there right now.

1. Charter Oak Automation, which bought out Industrial Hobbies earlier this year, has a CNC conversion kit available. There is no pricing information available at this link, and there is a warning that the conversion kit will only work on their machine. However, I spoke with them a couple of days ago, and they said this conversion kit should work with the MTW MD001. They said the price for the kit was $5500 but they had stopped shipping the kits because customers were having too many problems and questions during installation. Charter Oak said they would resume shipping the kit in 4 weeks or so, but that the price would increase to $6500. Maybe I missed something in the conversation, but the extra $1000 just seemed to include some extra wiring?

2. Pat at Machine Tool Warehouse says he has a CNC kit conversion completely designed. He seemed a little unsure how to structure the kit options because of customers wanting different things such as steppers vs servos, etc. He thought the kit would be offered for sale by Christmas, or maybe a little later. I have no idea of what this kit would cost.

3. I even asked Billly at bdtools (offers a nice mounting kit for the G0704 CNC conversion on eBay) if he would consider offering a CNC conversion kit for the IH mill / MTW MD001. I received a terse reply saying "THANKS BUT NO".

4. I didn't even bother inquiring with CNC Fusion. They took so long (years) to come out with a G0704 CNC conversion kit that asking about an IH mill / MTW MD001 CNC conversion kit seemed futile.


The Charter Oak Automation CNC conversion kit price of $6500 is completely insane. This appears to be overpriced by a good $2500-$3000 over procuring the parts yourself. And while Pat at Machine Tools Warehouse seems like a really great guy, I am very sceptical of his timeframe for releasing his CNC conversion kit. I wouldn't be surprised if the MTW kit isn't available until next summer.

Seems to me that there is a market niche available to someone with the experience and machinery to provide a CNC conversion kit for the IH mill / MTW MD001 mills.

Titaniumboy

[SCzEngrgGroup]

The Charter Oak Automation CNC conversion kit price of $6500 is completely insane. This appears to be overpriced by a good $2500-$3000 over procuring the parts yourself.

Sooooo..... They should sell the kit for what? Maybe a few hundred $ over their cost? Nobody can run a business like that for long. You get all the machined brackets, belt reducers, bearing blocks and bearings, ballscrews, home/limit switches, servo motors, power supplies, servo drives, wiring, etc., etc. That all represents at least hundreds of hours of someones time to design, refine, procure, manufacture, test, package, documents, etc., etc., many thousands of dollars in out-of-pocket expense, and before- and after-sales support. Typical "margin" on products of this type has to be an absolute minimum of 3-5X total product cost for a company to make a profit, unless the owner is happy making five cents per hour for his time. $6500 sounds about right to me.

Regards,
Ray L.

[vertcnc]

I am with Ray design, packaging, documenting a kit would take a lot of work on these Chinese machines. Consistency and accuracy of the casting are all overr the place $5000 or so is probably not to far out of line depending on electronics. I am currently working on a MD001 and have now completed all the brackets and mounts for the ball screws. I have used 20mm screws on the X and Y and 25mm on the Z with double nuts on all. I am not sure it could be properly done without some light machining on a few areas of the casting. I do plan on sharing my drawings to a certain extent and may offer the machined parts. Stay tuned.

[691175002]

In my opinion, it doesn't make sense to drop 9K on a mill that is ultimately an import conversion with a 2K RPM spindle. Anyone who has done a conversion realizes that there are always pieces missing. The step from a conversion to a seamless and finished tool is massive. Limit switches, sheet metal, flood/mist coolant, spindle, PDB, buttons, lights... The tasks are never ending. Getting it all properly integrated with mach3 is an enormous hurdle as well.

For just a few bucks more (10K-10.5K) you can get a novakon/tormach( Torus Pro | Novakon ) with up to 24"x15" of travel, flood coolant, etc... It makes no financial sense to spend nine thousand dollars for a conversion if you are planning to make money with the machine.

If you want to convert a mill for the fun/learning, IMO there are plenty of better ways to spend nine thousand dollars. Id imagine you could get a reasonable used VMC for that kind of money.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

For just a few bucks more (10K-10.5K) you can get a novakon/tormach( Torus Pro | Novakon ) with up to 24"x15" of travel, flood coolant, etc... It makes no financial sense to spend nine thousand dollars for a conversion if you are planning to make money with the machine.

As the owner of a Torus Pro (25" x 15" x 12" travels), I agree completely. I'd take a Novakon or Tormach over an IH any day. I've never understood the attraction of the IH machines - they're pretty crude overall, and you get no enclosure at all, not even a chip tray and stand. It also has a very low-speed spindle (under 4K RPM, IIRC), and I find the 6K spindle on my Torus Pro sometimes limiting.

Regards,
Ray L.

[waltpermenter]

In my opinion, it doesn't make sense to drop 9K on a mill that is ultimately an import conversion with a 2K RPM spindle. Anyone who has done a conversion realizes that there are always pieces missing. The step from a conversion to a seamless and finished tool is massive. Limit switches, sheet metal, flood/mist coolant, spindle, PDB, buttons, lights... The tasks are never ending. Getting it all properly integrated with mach3 is an enormous hurdle as well.

For just a few bucks more (10K-10.5K) you can get a novakon/tormach( Torus Pro | Novakon ) with up to 24"x15" of travel, flood coolant, etc... It makes no financial sense to spend nine thousand dollars for a conversion if you are planning to make money with the machine.

If you want to convert a mill for the fun/learning, IMO there are plenty of better ways to spend nine thousand dollars. Id imagine you could get a reasonable used VMC for that kind of money.

you missed the point of his post, he doesn't want to spend 9k on a retrofit, if he could achieve it for 6k it would be much more cost effective than going turnkey as you suggest. i suggest he contact members like arizonavideo who have already converted theirs and make an offer to buy their prints. browse the ih forum for members.
walt

[Titaniumboy]

In my opinion, it doesn't make sense to drop 9K on a mill that is ultimately an import conversion with a 2K RPM spindle.

For just a few bucks more (10K-10.5K) you can get a novakon/tormach( Torus Pro | Novakon ) with up to 24"x15" of travel, flood coolant, etc... It makes no financial sense to spend nine thousand dollars for a conversion if you are planning to make money with the machine.

...you could get a reasonable used VMC for that kind of money.

you missed the point of his post, he doesn't want to spend 9k on a retrofit, if he could achieve it for 6k it would be much more cost effective than going turnkey

These two comments sum up my thoughts pretty well.

I'm looking forward to seeing vertcnc's MD001 conversion. Also would like to see the CNC conversion kit from Machine Tools Warehouse.

I would also love to see plans from arizonavideo and/or kregan.

I was PM'ed by a member who plans to offer a CNC kit for the IH clone in about a month. $3000 for mechanicals only, and $5000 for both mechanicals and servos. No details on the servo size, ballscrew accuracy, etc.

I attended a Tormach demonstration in Santa Cruz over the weekend. The pricelist for the delivered Tormach 1100, with the recommended options, topped out at over $16,000. And the Tormach STILL doesn't have the Y-travels of the IH clone mill.

Titaniumboy

[SCzEngrgGroup]

I attended a Tormach demonstration in Santa Cruz over the weekend.

Do you live in Santa Cruz? I'm in Bonny Doon.

Regards,
Ray L.

[Titaniumboy]

Do you live in Santa Cruz? I'm in Bonny Doon.

I wish. I schlepped down to Santa Cruz from the Bay Area. Not too bad of a drive if done on off-commute hours.

Did you attend the Tormach demonstration? At least I got to meet Bob Warfield and see his beta CNC lathe.

This question might be better over on your "Torus Pro as a Production Machine" thread, but what sold you on the Novakon? I assume you had looked at all of the options I am like IH CNC mill, Tormach, DIY conversion of RF45 or IH clone, used VMC, etc. The Torus Pro's 24" X-travel and the magnificent 15" Y-travel are very impressive compared to the Tormach, and the cost is roughly equivalent. I'm a little concerned about the 11.5" Z travel; even my relatively puny Grizzly G0704 has a Z travel of 11.0".

Obviously you're able to do some very impressive work on your Novakon in spite of the Z travel, but how much of a pain has it been? Does it preclude using a drill chuck at the same time you're using a mill vise? What was your thought process in deciding you could live with the Z travel?

Thanks!

Titaniumboy

[SCzEngrgGroup]

I wish. I schlepped down to Santa Cruz from the Bay Area. Not too bad of a drive if done on off-commute hours.

Did you attend the Tormach demonstration? At least I got to meet Bob Warfield and see his beta CNC lathe.

This question might be better over on your "Torus Pro as a Production Machine" thread, but what sold you on the Novakon? I assume you had looked at all of the options I am like IH CNC mill, Tormach, DIY conversion of RF45 or IH clone, used VMC, etc. The Torus Pro's 24" X-travel and the magnificent 15" Y-travel are very impressive compared to the Tormach, and the cost is roughly equivalent. I'm a little concerned about the 11.5" Z travel; even my relatively puny Grizzly G0704 has a Z travel of 11.0".

Obviously you're able to do some very impressive work on your Novakon in spite of the Z travel, but how much of a pain has it been? Does it preclude using a drill chuck at the same time you're using a mill vise? What was your thought process in deciding you could live with the Z travel?

Thanks!

Titaniumboy

Yes, I was at the Open House from about 1-2PM.

What sold me on the Novakon was travels, and overall performance. The Tormach didn't come close to meeting my needs, and I didn't want to do another DIY build (after doing an X2, and several knee mills), or buy a manual mill that was converted to CNC (like the IH). The Novakon has exceeded my expectations in pretty much every important way. I do miss the 34" X travel of my knee mill, but that's about it. In every other way the Novakon is a big improvement, and has proven absolutely bullet-proof in many months of very heavy use. In fact, I have another Novakon coming soon - the new Pulsar, with servo spindle.

The Z travel is a total non-issue - I've never been short of Z travel, except when working on very tall items. You have to realize the Z travel, and the Z clearance are two very different things. With the head all the way down, the spindle nose is 5" above the table, so the total Z clearance is actually about 17". This means you can't work on very low things mounted directly on the table with short tools. But, this was easily solved by simply making several 2" "riser blocks" for my low, table-mounted fixtures. With those, I've had no problems whatsoever, even milling 1/8" material with 1/16" tools. Using a vise, never a problem. In fact, I recently drilled a bunch of 1/2" holes over 5" deep in parts mounted on a 6" vise.

Regards,
Ray L.

[691175002]

Spindle to Table: Novakon 5.27” – 16.75“ Tormach 0.75″ – 17”

I can't think of a situation where you actually require the spindle be right against the table, in most cases you can just throw a few blocks under the part. If you are using TTS most of your tools will have a few inches of stickout already.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Spindle to Table: Novakon 5.27” – 16.75“ Tormach 0.75″ – 17”

I can't think of a situation where you actually require the spindle be right against the table, in most cases you can just throw a few blocks under the part. If you are using TTS most of your tools will have a few inches of stickout already.

Which is why I only needed 2" risers to make everything work perfectly..... They have the added advantage of keeping chips from piling up quite so much around the fixture - they just fall off the sides onto the table. And this thing can make a LOT of chips - More than once, I've made over 25 gallons of chips in a single day.

Regards,
Ray L.

[Titaniumboy]

Ray,

Thanks for the detailed explanation of how you arrived at your Torus Pro purchase decision. Very useful. Might also end up costing me a ton of money.

Ryan, thanks for chiming in. I've been a big fan of your work on your G0704 CNC conversion. Really top notch work.


On a separate note, am I mistaken that having Santa Cruz Electronics become a California Tormach dealer has cost every Tormach buyer in the state - whether they buy from Santa Cruz Electronics or not - about a $1000 in sales tax? That is a $1000 advantage for Novakon right there.

Titaniumboy

[vertcnc]

Don't forget of the customs fees or import tax from purchases from Novakon. I guessing at least $500.

[syn08]

Pat at Machine Tool Warehouse says he has a CNC kit conversion completely designed. He seemed a little unsure how to structure the kit options because of customers wanting different things such as steppers vs servos, etc. He thought the kit would be offered for sale by Christmas, or maybe a little later. I have no idea of what this kit would cost.

Don't hold your breath for those kits. Las year in November I asked Pat about a BF20L conversion kit (hoping to save on the insane shipping rates from south of border). He promised a kit in the first half of 2013, claiming he will have first a SX3 kit by the end of 2012.

A year passed, no trace of a SX3 or BF20L kit; as of today, the SX3 manual machine is no longer even offered!

[gcofieldd]

Don't hold your breath for those kits. Las year in November I asked Pat about a BF20L conversion kit (hoping to save on the insane shipping rates from south of border). He promised a kit in the first half of 2013, claiming he will have first a SX3 kit by the end of 2012.

A year passed, no trace of a SX3 or BF20L kit; as of today, the SX3 manual machine is no longer even offered!

I will end up making my conversion a kit after I get my machine up and running, and make some improvements, but that is a few months off.

[Titaniumboy]

I will end up making my conversion a kit after I get my machine up and running, and make some improvements, but that is a few months off.

I'll be watching your CNC conversion with interest. I'm also looking forward to your CNC kit.

----------------------------

All,

Just ran across the Microkinetics CNC Express XL. Is this an IH clone? Sure seems like it would have to be with the 28" X and 12" Y travels.

[more checking]

This MUST be an IH clone. The table dimensions for the CNC Express XL are EXACTLY the same as the IH clone at 39.5" x 9.375". $8495 (shipping included?), 2 HP variable speed spindle, 100 to 3200 rpm, steppers, stand, 4" CNC vise, face mill, clamp kit, drill chuck. Also includes their USB motion controller and their G-code control softare called MillMaster Pro for Windows.

The only problem is these guys have inexplicably gone to all the work of doing an IH clone CNC conversion, and then they went and CNC'ed the quill instead of the Z-axis?!? A whole whopping 4.75" of Z travel.(chair)

Attachment 205452


[edit]
Shipping does NOT appear to be included, at least according to their eBay listing.
[/edit]

Titaniumboy

[joecnc2006]

I'll be watching your CNC conversion with interest. I'm also looking forward to your CNC kit.

----------------------------

All,

Just ran across the Microkinetics CNC Express XL. Is this an IH clone? Sure seems like it would have to be with the 28" X and 12" Y travels.

[more checking]

This MUST be an IH clone. The table dimensions for the CNC Express XL are EXACTLY the same as the IH clone at 39.5" x 9.375". $8495 (shipping included?), 2 HP variable speed spindle, 100 to 3200 rpm, steppers, stand, 4" CNC vise, face mill, clamp kit, drill chuck. Also includes their USB motion controller and their G-code control softare called MillMaster Pro for Windows.

The only problem is these guys have inexplicably gone to all the work of doing an IH clone CNC conversion, and then they went and CNC'ed the quill instead of the Z-axis?!? A whole whopping 4.75" of Z travel.(chair)

Attachment 205452


[edit]
Shipping does NOT appear to be included, at least according to their eBay listing.
[/edit]

Titaniumboy

I would be interested to know what the distance to from the spindle center to the column is, this would be your max cutting area, I may be wrong but does not look like 12" to me. it may have 12" Y travel but if that space is smaller you can not cut larger parts.

[Titaniumboy]

I would be interested to know what the distance to from the spindle center to the column is, this would be your max cutting area, I may be wrong but does not look like 12" to me. it may have 12" Y travel but if that space is smaller you can not cut larger parts.

Joe,

IF this is an IH clone, then the Charter Oak webpage lists the Column-to-Spindle distance as 12".

I will verify this spec with MicroKinetics.

MicroKinetics said that the maximum and minimum Table-to-Spindle distance is 18" and 4.75". Shipping to the left coast would be $700-$750 to a freight terminal, with residential liftgate service adding another $125.

There is no discount if you decline their MillMaster control software. In fact, they claimed that a third party control software such as Mach 3 would not work with their motion controller. Dumb, dumb, and dumber.

Titaniumboy