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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Novakon > Torus Pro vs Torus vs Pulsar vs PM45-CNC
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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    481

    Torus Pro vs Torus vs Pulsar vs PM45-CNC

    I've been reading up on many of the great threads here about the Torus Pro and Torus mills. These two machines have really piqued my interest.

    A couple of questions and or concerns that maybe members here can help me with.

    1. The Torus Pro width of 87" I can live with, but the depth of 55.5" is a lot for me. Has anyone taken the electronic cabinet off of the back and mounted it separately? I'm guessing the cabinet is about 10" deep? This mill is HUGE.

    2. The Torus has a work cube of 14.75" x 9" x 12.25" XYZ work cube and a table size of 7.8" x 23.6". My small Grizzly G0704 has a work cube of 18 7/8" x 6 7/8" x 11" and a table size of 7 1/16" x 26 5/8". While I can sort of justify that the Torus 9" Y travel and 12.25" Z travel makes up for the loss of 4" in the X travel, I'm having a hard time getting past the fact that the Torus table will smaller than my G0704 table. It really is a shame that the Novakon doesn't offer a larger table for the Torus as an option. The leap in table size from the Torus 7.8" x 23.6" to the Torus Pro 12" x 40" is really enormous; I'm not saying that the Torus Pro table is too large, rather that the Torus table is too small for a machine of this size.

    3. What is the differences between the Torus at $6495 and the Pulsar at $7750? These prices are both for stepper axis motors. The tables appear to be the same size, and the Pulsar has larger travels by 1" X and 1/2" Y and 1/4" Z. Both have servo spindles that can do rigid tapping. The main thing I've heard about the Pulsar is the improved chip handling, but this appears to be a function of the optional stand and not in the mill itself. So what does the extra $1255 buy for me other than slightly larger travels?

    4. I've also been looking at the Precision Matthews PM-45-CNC. While having a much larger table size of 9" x 32" and a larger work cube of 21.5" x 8" x 16" than the Torus, it also has major shortcomings such as no chip tray, limited RPM of 1950 (3000 rpm with VFD), unknown ballscrew quality, no rigid tapping, and unknown quality control.

    5. What is the difference between the Torus Pro and NM-200? Between the Torus and the NM-145?


    All of the above mills are turn-key machines. I guess there are a couple of other options for me, but they involve a lot more work.

    6. Go ahead and convert my G0704 to CNC. The downside is the time involved. THe upside is that the cost will be very reasonable, and I will have learned a lot about the mechanical and electrical aspects of CNC conversion.

    7. Buy an Industrial Hobbies / Machine Tool Warehouse MD-001. This is a hulkified version of the RF45 style mill with a table size of 9 3/8" x 38 1/2" and a work cube of 30 1/8" x 12" x 16". While a great deal at $2500-$3000 (not including shipping or duties), there are not any CNC kits available for less than $6500, although several others have said they will have kits available in the next month or three.

    Ideas and/or suggestions?

    Titaniumboy

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    7063
    I would be a whole lot more concerned with the track record of any machine I was going to buy, than about an extra couple of inches of travel.

    I can tell you for a fact that a DIY machine is a BIG project. Doing the basic conversion is pretty easy, but really getting the bugs out of it to the point that the machine is reliable day in and day out typically takes months. By the time you're done, the cost will be close to the cost of buying a ready-to-run machine as well. Most people who do their own conversions seem to take as much as a year to complete it, and then spend considerable time for years after that repairing and upgrading the weak points. Many never do end up with a truly reliable, precision machine, whether due to poor component choice, or poor workmanship.

    Keep in mind too that by the time you're setup to do useful work, you'll have spent almost as much on tooling as you did on the machine itself.

    I wouldn't even consider any of the RF-45 machines, due to their very low spindle speed, and NOISY geartrains. My Torus Pro has a 6K RPM spindle, my knee mill ansd 8200 RPM spindle, and I find both very limiting with small tools. 3000 RPM would be almost unusable - I run faster than that with my 4" face mill!

    Regards,
    Ray L.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    481
    Quote Originally Posted by SCzEngrgGroup View Post
    I would be a whole lot more concerned with the track record of any machine I was going to buy, than about an extra couple of inches of travel.

    I can tell you for a fact that a DIY machine is a BIG project. Doing the basic conversion is pretty easy, but really getting the bugs out of it to the point that the machine is reliable day in and day out typically takes months. By the time you're done, the cost will be close to the cost of buying a ready-to-run machine as well. Most people who do their own conversions seem to take as much as a year to complete it, and then spend considerable time for years after that repairing and upgrading the weak points. Many never do end up with a truly reliable, precision machine, whether due to poor component choice, or poor workmanship.
    Words to the wise. I have to keep reminding myself of this. A turnkey CNC mill is my first preference.


    Keep in mind too that by the time you're setup to do useful work, you'll have spent almost as much on tooling as you did on the machine itself.
    After taking manual machining classes and having the G0704, I am setup well in measuring and indicating equipment. I do still need a boring head, a face mill, angle plates, sine bar, and some US-made endmills and reamers.


    I wouldn't even consider any of the RF-45 machines, due to their very low spindle speed, and NOISY geartrains. My Torus Pro has a 6K RPM spindle, my knee mill ansd 8200 RPM spindle, and I find both very limiting with small tools. 3000 RPM would be almost unusable - I run faster than that with my 4" face mill!
    Yeah, I forgot to mention that if I went the PM-45-CNC route (or the DIY IH clone route) that even this "turnkey" CNC mill would require a belt drive kit to increase the spindle RPM (and get rid of all of the gears).

    So how feasible is relocating the electronic cabinet on your Torus Pro? How deep is that cabinet?

    On another note, have you had to do any "Viewing Center" demo's yet?

    Thanks for your comments. Always appreciated.

    Titaniumboy

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    316
    Titaniumboy

    It is possible to re-locate the cabinet. I remember one other user who had the same request.
    It required custom wiring harnesses. Contact Novakon for a quote.

    While the Pulsar is similar to the NM-145, it is a new machine, re-designed to incorporate numerous improvements.
    New castings, different manufacturer, beefier construction, awesome stand and coolant system ( dual 90 w. pumps ) as well as powder coated tray.
    The entire tray is angled so that all coolant flows directly to and through dual screens before returning to the increased capacity coolant tray.
    No more coolant pooling or running short halfway through a job. The second pump comes with a hose and nozzle to wash down the entire machine and tray.

    Check out my post "Pulsar Shakedown Cruise" for details and videos.

    John

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    7063
    Quote Originally Posted by Titaniumboy View Post
    Words to the wise. I have to keep reminding myself of this. A turnkey CNC mill is my first preference.




    After taking manual machining classes and having the G0704, I am setup well in measuring and indicating equipment. I do still need a boring head, a face mill, angle plates, sine bar, and some US-made endmills and reamers.




    Yeah, I forgot to mention that if I went the PM-45-CNC route (or the DIY IH clone route) that even this "turnkey" CNC mill would require a belt drive kit to increase the spindle RPM (and get rid of all of the gears).

    So how feasible is relocating the electronic cabinet on your Torus Pro? How deep is that cabinet?

    On another note, have you had to do any "Viewing Center" demo's yet?

    Thanks for your comments. Always appreciated.

    Titaniumboy
    Moving the E-box would not be difficult at all. You'd just have to make up new cables, or extension cables, neither of which would be terribly difficult.

    I've had one "Viewing Center" visitor so far.

    Regards,
    Ray L.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    481
    John and Ray,

    Thanks for the info on moving the control box.

    I need to get in contact with Novakon to get some prices and ask more questions.


    Titaniumboy

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by Titaniumboy View Post
    I've been reading up on many of the great threads here about the Torus Pro and Torus mills. These two machines have really piqued my interest.

    A couple of questions and or concerns that maybe members here can help me with.

    1. The Torus Pro width of 87" I can live with, but the depth of 55.5" is a lot for me. Has anyone taken the electronic cabinet off of the back and mounted it separately? I'm guessing the cabinet is about 10" deep? This mill is HUGE.

    2. The Torus has a work cube of 14.75" x 9" x 12.25" XYZ work cube and a table size of 7.8" x 23.6". My small Grizzly G0704 has a work cube of 18 7/8" x 6 7/8" x 11" and a table size of 7 1/16" x 26 5/8". While I can sort of justify that the Torus 9" Y travel and 12.25" Z travel makes up for the loss of 4" in the X travel, I'm having a hard time getting past the fact that the Torus table will smaller than my G0704 table. It really is a shame that the Novakon doesn't offer a larger table for the Torus as an option. The leap in table size from the Torus 7.8" x 23.6" to the Torus Pro 12" x 40" is really enormous; I'm not saying that the Torus Pro table is too large, rather that the Torus table is too small for a machine of this size.

    3. What is the differences between the Torus at $6495 and the Pulsar at $7750? These prices are both for stepper axis motors. The tables appear to be the same size, and the Pulsar has larger travels by 1" X and 1/2" Y and 1/4" Z. Both have servo spindles that can do rigid tapping. The main thing I've heard about the Pulsar is the improved chip handling, but this appears to be a function of the optional stand and not in the mill itself. So what does the extra $1255 buy for me other than slightly larger travels?

    4. I've also been looking at the Precision Matthews PM-45-CNC. While having a much larger table size of 9" x 32" and a larger work cube of 21.5" x 8" x 16" than the Torus, it also has major shortcomings such as no chip tray, limited RPM of 1950 (3000 rpm with VFD), unknown ballscrew quality, no rigid tapping, and unknown quality control.

    5. What is the difference between the Torus Pro and NM-200? Between the Torus and the NM-145?


    All of the above mills are turn-key machines. I guess there are a couple of other options for me, but they involve a lot more work.

    6. Go ahead and convert my G0704 to CNC. The downside is the time involved. THe upside is that the cost will be very reasonable, and I will have learned a lot about the mechanical and electrical aspects of CNC conversion.

    7. Buy an Industrial Hobbies / Machine Tool Warehouse MD-001. This is a hulkified version of the RF45 style mill with a table size of 9 3/8" x 38 1/2" and a work cube of 30 1/8" x 12" x 16". While a great deal at $2500-$3000 (not including shipping or duties), there are not any CNC kits available for less than $6500, although several others have said they will have kits available in the next month or three.

    Ideas and/or suggestions?

    Titaniumboy
    I too was interested in the differences between the Torus and the Pulsar.The Pulsar is $2000 more than the Torus if you take in to account to make the packages relatively equal a $750 stand would need to be purchased for the Pulsar. (noted it is an upgraded stand compared to the included stand with the Torus)I e-mailed Novakon to ask them the differences between the two machines.They said that the Torus is now discontinued so I guesss this makes the comparison irrelavent.They did say that the Pulsar has slightly greater x and y envelope and that the machine is 100lb heavier than the Torus.$2000 is quite a difference in price.Maybe they have to pay U.S. Dollars to the Chinese factory for the machines.That would account for some of the difference.Soon to see price increases across the board?Hope not.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    1738
    If you were located near NJ; you could stop by and see my Torus Pro with the removed cabinet. I had Novakon extend about 6 Ft of cables so that I could mount the control box on my wall. They did a heck of a job with the wiring.

    I saved a decent amount of space from the back wall. Ideally when I move out, I will have the mill on Castors and probably have the control box mounted back again or somewhere on my full enclosure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Titaniumboy View Post
    John and Ray,

    Thanks for the info on moving the control box.

    I need to get in contact with Novakon to get some prices and ask more questions.


    Titaniumboy

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