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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
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    190

    Arrow Hardinge CHNC II SP Conversion to Mach 3 Step by Step

    Post 1

    Hello ALL! I purchased two Hardinge CHNC II SP lathes. The controls had issues and I decided to totally redue most of the machine, and convert it over to mach 3. New bench, all new electronics, etc. Everyday I will try to post my progress, as of now im on day 7 of the tear down, my only help is my MOM a few hours a day LOVE U MOM! .

    So as of today I stripped the entire machine, except the actual turret mechanism (I heard this is hell to put back together)

    Heres some pics of before and now:

    I can only upload 2 at a time, does anyone know how I can upload more at a time?

    P.S. The cleaner looking one, used water based coolant....ewwww look at the turret innards, that's what happens when u use coolant based when your supposed to run these on oil only.

    P.S.S. don't hook everything to a hoist and then to one hook! LOL

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    190
    Post 2

    So yesterday we were still cleaning the turrets up, we noted that the deep innarts were in great shape, so were the sliding surfaces.

    On area of dissapointment was the fact that one of the cross slides is missing the stop dog solenoid mechanism, at least I have one of them so I might be able to make the other one. If anyone have any old parts of one of these let me know!

    Heres a list of what I need, and would pay you for!
    Bellows (accordian material that covers the cross slides)
    Back solenoid that actuates the stop dog


    More updates tomorrow!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    190
    Post 2 addon

    On another note, I have been working with some programmers and they are helping me a ton with Mach 3.

    What I will be doing is replace the faulty turret encoder with a series of switches that interface with Mach 3, this illiminates the need for modios and crazy addons. I will also be able to use the existing airmotor so I will get very fast tool changes.

    The trick for the turret is this sequence:

    1. Unclamp stop dog
    2. Raise turret
    3. spin air motor
    4. sense a switch when you get to the correct tool.
    5. fire the stop dog stopping the turret.
    6. deactivate the air motor.
    7. drop the turret in place.


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
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    190
    Post 3 End of day 9

    We cleaned up the oil air feed reservoir. It was nasty, I noticed that the machine that was used with cutting oil was harder to clean off, but had a better finish then the one with water based coolant. Also the water based coolant one had fungus and bacteria in the reservoir, I about vomited....

    Here are some pics of us before and after, alot of these parts had scratches before and surface corrosion. Ill have to soak these later.

    *Note the oil system for this machine just uses compressed air in a chamber, and the oil is forced out of the chamber through a pickup tube, it then travels through a system of holes them it goes out to the spindle, air collet closer, slides, turret, etc. I noticed a huge flaw with this. All the lines were just metered outputs with Bijor fittings (a metered output is basically a hole with a fine screen and a checkvalve). The problem with this is that they get clogged very easy. I think I am just going to make my own metered output with small valves to send oil to where it needs to go and adjust the valves as needed to get a good amount of oil regulation. This may become a problem when running the air lines to the turret, because I am more than certain that the air needs to me an air/oil combination. I may be able to get around this by running seperate lines to the turret with its own air filter/oiler. (I will be doing this last)

    Enjoy!

    More pics tomorrow

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    190
    End of day 10

    Not much to post today, just cleaned up the actual lathe bodies, I have a ton more cleaning to do. I lifted them and put them on blocks, heres a pic.

    Also I purchased some oil based primer, Im going to redo the stock colors (to some extent).

    This weekend I will be wiring up and making a wiring diagram for my machine (that should be fun )

    pics and info on monday!



    P.S. how free should the spindle spin? Easily, or super easy?

    Thanks!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_2991[1].jpg   IMG_2992[1].jpg  

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    468
    This looks like a pretty cool project. I am following this one.
    Mike

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    190
    Thanks brass builder! I'm glad I'm helping someone else out . I do have a long way to go, but considering I paid 2100$ for both of these delivered to my door, I got a great deal. I sold all the old electronics for 5k . Ill have to use the 2900 profit to purchase more electronics and building materials like paint and steel for the new enclosure.

    I chose nema 34 hybrid servos/steppers for the drives, they are about 450$ per axis. It's the best of both worlds, 8nm of torque till about 300rpm then it drops off to 1.8 nm at 3000 rpm. Not bad considering the original motors only ha 1.8 nm torque throughout the speed curve.

    These motors have an encoder also that keeps position just like a servo. Ill be able to achieve the same is not better resolution of 0.0001

    Thanks and ill keep everyone posted as much as I can, most likely daily . I hope to get them done by Christmas!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    190
    Dis-assembly update

    Here are a few things that I ran into when taking apart the chnc II sp lathes.

    The slides themselves moved very nicely in the area that they normally slide on the dovetail. However, when trying to pull them off the slides. They were extremely tight, especially the cross slide. In the manual they specify not to adjust the gib with set screws as this is done at the factory, unfortunanlty I could not remove the cross slide without loosing them. I think its because the probably dial in the lathe cross slide parallelism with it and set it. This should be an easy process to redo.

    Also removing the ballscrews require a spanner wrench, which apparently no one has a set ;(. So I will have to make up by drilling out a piece of steel and screwing in 2 grade 8 screws.

    Also it helps to take pics, im gonna have an interesting time redoing the air lines. Word of advice, don't cut them....most of them have a small inner line which is the actual air/oil line, the outer line is just to protect it (I assume...)

    ************Has anyone ever done this conversion before? I saw one gentlemen redo a really old model with a 5c collet closer. These were mid 90's.

    Thanks!

    M

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    190
    So today I have been toying with the idea about replacing the spindle bearings. In one machine the spindle spins very smoothly but is noisy even when I spin it by hand, leading to believe that at 5k rpm they will be hella loud = shot bearings. The other is very stiff and if I spin cw and then ccw there is a free spot of easy movement, then it gets hard to spin = shot bearings. So I will either be sending the head stocks out to be redone or I will do it myself, I Found a rebuild blog of a hardinge service tech explaining how to do it. I have replaced many spindle bearings and understand how to preload them and measure runout and adjust for each. Problem is that I have yet to find anyone with replacement bearings. Even if I were to find a set I would most likely have to get them lapped or ground down to get the proper preload.

    So when I take the spindle apart ill make sure to mark where all the current tightness and orientation of all the collars. Not sure if this is going to help much especially if the bearings are shot, shot bearing will change the pre-load because if their shot their distorted and the current position of the lock collars may not be appropriate.

    I have yet to find a supplier for the spindle bearings, but have seen on the forums that they are abec 7 bearings, I should still be able to get them from hardinge.

    These machines are being restored and updated to reproduce the same if not better tolerances of 0.00005. I will make sure these can hold that, so purchasing the right parts are very important to me, no half ass job here.

    Heres some pics so far.

    The spindle was fairly easy to take apart (not the bearing section yet).

    Diss-assembly

    1. 4 screws on the back ring in between the head stock and collet closer.
    2. Unscrew ccw (if looking at the collet in the lathe towards the collet closer), the collet will feed out.
    3. Pull the whole long assembly out of the ass of the spindle, jiggle it, it will come out as long as the collet it out.
    4. remove the 4 or 3 (not sure i for got ) in the black plate and that to will come off.
    5. remove the 3 small allen pan head screws around the large ring on the back of the head stock, these screws hold the ring on.
    If you have trouble removing the ring, its because its stuck. Tap it with a metal hammer slightly, if still not go reach underneath past the pullies and push. Its what i had to done on one.
    6. I took of small hardware here and there.
    7. the spindle lock has 2 set screws on the top, only long one, and one short, take both out and then you can remove the spindle lock mechanism.

    I have decided on the paint! GUN METAL BLACK/GREY! similar color to the stealth bombers, no sheen, no gloss, just rugged, and easy to keep clean. These machines will be back in a machine shop when done so I want functionality and professionalism when finished. I was considering white, but I dunno, sounds like a ton of cleaning with white paint. Perhaps powder coat the machine ? Someone wanna chime in?

    Till next post!

    Mike

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    190
    Spindle update

    So I spoke with hartwig (they own hardinge now I guess), and they advised not changing the spindle bearings in the field. I asked why? They said it takes a lot of specialized tools, its hard, etc. etc. etc. I asked how much for a spindle rebuild for new bearings....their answer..........."Ahh, only $6500.00 each". I laughed and said how much are the bearings? Their answer........ "Those are pricey, 376.00 for the matching set" I said, SOLD. I spoke with a service guy that replaces hardinge spindles and he gave me instructions on how they do it at the factory. Not complicated at all, the only complex part is heating the bearing to about 100F and the slipping it back on the shaft. He did mention the labyrinth seal that may need to be reground, to match the bearings. He said you can get away with this simply by measuring (with mics) the thickness of the inner races from the stock bearings, and then comparing them to the new ones, if they are larger you will have to regrind the labyrinth seal, if they are the the same of smaller, then your OK. The tech asked me why I want to replace them, my answer....."If you were retrofitting these machines to get the back to factory accuracy or better, wouldn't you?". He said, "Of coarse".

    I will be taking pics of the spindle bearing replacement on the CHNC II Super Precision, hopefully this will help people out in the future. I will also make a list of steps to change them.

    WISH ME LUCK!

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1852
    Hi Mike,

    I wish I had the time and money to retro fit mine, but not now. Beside mine runs sweet, just the controls are old and a pain in the a$$.

    As far as the bearing, if yours are good, I'm not sure I would change them either. They were built like tanks and mine is an 86 that runs smooth as silk. I had a former Hardinge tech come to my shop to assist me with recommissioning my machine just after I got it and he said just that. The machines were sturdy as rocks, but the controls are just old.

    Anyway, I'll keep an eye on your project.

    Just Mike
    Two Haas VF-2's, Haas HA5C, Haas HRT-9, Hardinge CHNC 1, Bother HS-300 Wire EDM, BobCAD V23, BobCAD V28

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    190
    Hey Mike, thanks for posting

    I may want to sell one of these when im done with them, and if I were a perspective buyer, I would want a spindle with new bearings. I have yet to test runout, and I will do that now actually. Lets see, one of them it shot pretty good, I have 0.0005" of jump when I reverse direction, about 0.0003" or runout which equates to about 0.001" of runout, which is way over my comfort level. Who wants a machine with +-0.001" error from a super precision lathe? Not me...I want to hold 0.0001" if not better.

    The other is pretty good, but while im at it I might as well change both out.

    What kind of accuracy can you hold with your CHNC?

    Ill post a video shortly

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    190
    Heres is a youtube video of current progress

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnM5...ature=youtu.be

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    190
    Ahh man! I lost the entire post ;( Autosave my butt...

    So lets try this again

    I cleaned a ton of parts, about 4 hours worth LOL

    I removed both headstocks, they were pretty easy, remove the 4 bolts at the base, loosen the set screw near the dovetail, use a rubber dead blow and hit the side to break it free. Then slide it off the back, careful though....Weighs about 100lbs ;D

    There was a lot of crap underneath them! Im glad I took them off, I am considering taking off the dovetail and cleaning it all, I am hesitant because when they assemble these, they scrap the mating surfaces. Then install the dovetail, and then rescrape the mating surface of the headstock to get the vertical alignment true, I might jar something if I take the dovetail off (there are bolts running along the base underneath the bed). +

    There is a little surface corrosion underneath the head stock, a little stoning and it will be good as new! I am only concerned about removing highspots from corrosion. Amazingly enough the actual area where the saddle slides on is perfect. The portion that the saddle does not slide has a little corrosion. No accuracy issues from corrosion yay!

    I am going to sand and prep most of the parts tomorrow, hopefully paint them thursday night!

    I need to find some spanner wrenches to take of the rear spindle nut and the ballscrew nuts. A set cost $80.00 :|. I may use these twice in my lifetime LOL

    So enjoy the pics! More updates tomorrow

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    393
    Hi

    You can check for bearings here , I bought for my machine (Emco Turn 220 P) 4 bearings with delivery for 330 euro + VAT, in my country all that would cost 800 euro (they have old stocks of never used bearings)

    Ball-Bearings - shop.fischerprecise.com

    From sound of bearings I think your race ways are not smooth so this is why you can hear them, I saw that on my bearings. When I replaced mine I expected that after that spindle will run soundless but there is sound but much quieter then with old bearings (20 years), actually my machine make sound very similar to yours but only quieter. My advice is take sound recording from some known distance and compare it after you remove bearings, I wish I have done that. I can remember that sound was not of smooth running bearings but I thought that motor was problem (bad bearings) but eventually motor bearing are running smooth what is logical because coolant cant reach inside , and in spindle bearing after 20 years something will eventually reach, motor and spindle were connected over belt 1:1 ratio so when I rotate spindle I in same time rotate motor. I red that bearings with 80 mm ID can be press fitted on spindle, if they are larger then that then they need to be heated, all those information you can find on web if you search for FAG bearings.

    And other thing when I tested run out with metric dial indicator with 0.001 mm accuracy there was no run out so you will probably need to replace bearings.

    Keep good work , I know how much work you have :cheers:

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    190
    Thanks,

    I purchased 4 sets for $1700.00, I mispoke earlier, they are 400 a pair and you need 2 pairs per headstock ;(. And your right, I have a ton of work todo LOL. I am looking for 2 extra parts at the moment, a rear cover for the x axis, and the stop dog solenoid in the rear of the turret, do you know anyone that has a parts machine?

    I also called hardinge and gosiger because I am having some difficulty removing the spindle from the head stock, I will need to take it to a machine shop with a press and press the spindle out. When I reassemble everything I will heat the casting and slip everything back in.

    Here are some updates:

    I had to fabricate a special spanner wrench (yes it looks ghetto, and yes it worked flawlessly!), I looked and called many places to no avail. I took the spindle nut off, then I had to use harbor freight ($30.00) gear puller set, the smallest one, to remove the belt pulley. Thats about as far as I got with the spindle. I think perhaps I will make a screw pullet and put it on the front of the machine, Ill use the threaded bolts on the a2 nose and pull the whole spindle out. Not sure how I am going to do this but I will probably tackle it tomorrow and friday.

    I got frustrated to I moved on to the ballscrews, I had to make a special spanner wrench for that also .

    Fun stuff! This was about 7 hours of work today fabricating the right side spanner wrenches took most of the time.

    Again if anyone has a parts machine laying around, give me a holler!

    Also toyed around with the idea of using LinuxCNC instead of mach 3, not sure which would be easier to use on this kind of lathe.

    Mike

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    393
    Hi

    I do not know anyone for parts that you need, try to look on e bay, I saw there some parts that maybe can be used (for my machine) did not look for your.

    I think your setup for removing bearings with spindle is too weak , it need to be more rigid. I used 27 mm in diameter threaded shaft that I pulled through spindle and tighten the big nuts so in that way I had large mechanical press, I used my press to assemble bearings on spindle to disassemble them and to put spindle back in headstock.

    Every spindle have some run out and bearings are positioned to compensate run out , there is mark on inner race, so it is good thing to take picture of all that things and scratch something on spindle so you know latter to return back with new bearings to have zero run out at the end.

    I do not know can you understand me , best thing would be to make movie how I did it.

    Anyway on my spindle there are 4 bearings, they are angular contact bearings with balls, bearings are for universal mounting (it is not set of match pair) and there is big spacer (ground ) between them, I manged to take out all with out heating whole assembly out of headstock, after that I removed bearings from spindle with my mechanical press (27 mm threaded shaft, it cost 20 $ and it is 1 m long), I managed to generate such force with that press that balls from bearing fell out from first 2 bearings that are close to part where you need to put chuck.

    I did not expected that balls will fell out but now I know that you can expect that because those bearings are designed to withstand force from only front direction and vertical direction.

    I think I will make video.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    190
    Hello,

    Thank you for your input, I think that is what I am going to do also . I knew I had to fabricate some kind of press, the only thing I am kinda unsure about is the pressure against the fact of the headstock, there is not really any flat areas to brace from, I figured some wood blocks might do the trick.

    Did you have to do anything special when you pressed them in? How about your final runout when assembled, 0.00002 or better?

    Thank you,

    Mike

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    393
    Hi

    I will post some pics maybe you got idea how to use my idea in your case, I think it would be better to use aluminum and take your time to make tools , you will regret if you something damage letter because of laziness. I have so much material , I just need to take time to make movies.

    Here is link about bearings :

    http://www.schaeffler.com/remotemedi...00_3_de_en.pdf

    I red there about heating , my bearings have 50 mm ID so I did not heat anything, only press fit. Thing is that spindle is greased for lifetime and when you press fit first 2 bearings you will destroy them if you want to take them back from some reason, balls will be deformed, they are softer then race ways.

    So here are some pictures:

    My DIY press adapters, only aluminum touches mating surfaces of bearings and I have different adapters.




    This was my first idea, not very good and to weak to remove bearings from spindle





    This worked fine for removing spindle and bearings, black thing at the end is from aluminum
















    Inner race was cut with dremel tool and cracked with this tool, did not want to heat anything to ruin something (I am not expert LOL)







    This is old inner race , rare ones are worn, because of water and rust and larger load on them from weight of air cylinder (that is my opinion), front 2 bearing were pretty good but balls were destroyed after pulling them apart, I felt sick , I thought I ruined something what is good, at last I find out that bearings are after 20 years of use in condition for replacing, if my machine was take care better maybe they would last longer, but then I would not be able to buy machine in such good condition




    This is very important picture , I did not see this anywhere



    Checked for runout and it was zero




    Checked again with new bearings , it was zero again if you neglect dents on spindle from little rust spots




    Hope you find this helpful, as I said I will make lot of videos just need to take time, always have something to do.

    :cheers:

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    393
    Just to mention, spindle assembly with bearings came out relatively easy from headstock (at first I did not make press, I used hammer and knock knock (LOL) spindle over brass cylinder , did not want to damage spindle surface, letter I used my press.

    Knock knock technique did not worked for bearings and spindle removal, my advice, do not use hammer on bearings never, especially if they are new and you will use them permanently in spindle.

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