[TAProwler]

I just loaded V24 onto a new laptop (HP2000) and initially all was well. As I have migrated more and more applications onto my new laptop, suddenly the select tool is acting funny. Instead of re-drawing the exact same video inside the selected box it puts a bunch of garbage inside. It all goes away when I let up on the right click button - but when you're trying to select stuff and all you see is garbage it makes it kinda hard.

Here's a screen shot:
Attachment 209608

That SHOULD just be a box with a single skinny black border around it.

If I drag the box slow enough, it appears to make a ghost image of the right side of the screen.

Has to be a video RAM issue of some kind.

Anyone have any ideas how to get the crap out?

Thanks for the insight.
R/Todd

BTW - here's a V24 System Info dump that might be helpful - to those smart folks

****** Computer System *****
Name : PROWLERAVIATION
Manufacturer : Hewlett-Packard
Model : HP 2000 Notebook PC
SystemType : x64-based PC
Description : AT/AT COMPATIBLE
NumberOfProcessors : 1
NumberOfLogicalProcessors : 2
TotalPhysicalMemory : 3718516736
BootupState : Normal boot
Workgroup : WORKGROUP
DNSHostName : ProwlerAviation
Domain : WORKGROUP
PrimaryOwnerName : tapapesh
UserName : ProwlerAviation\tapapesh

***** Sysyem CPU Info *****
Manufacturer : AuthenticAMD
Version : Model 0, Stepping 1
Stepping : 1
DeviceID : CPU0
ProcessorId : 178BFBFF00700F01
Description : AMD64 Family 22 Model 0 Stepping 1
Name : AMD E2-3000 APU with Radeon(TM) HD Graphics
NumberOfCores : 2
NumberOfLogicalProcessors : 2
MaxClockSpeed : 1.650 MHz


***** System Graphics *****
AdapterDACType : Internal DAC(400MHz)
Description : AMD Radeon HD 8280
DeviceID : VideoController1
DriverVersion : 12.102.4.0
InfFilename : oem4.inf
InfSection : ati2mtag_Kabini_Mobile
InstalledDisplayDrivers : aticfx64.dll,aticfx64.dll,aticfx64.dll,aticfx32,at icfx32,aticfx32,atiumd64.dll,atidxx64.dll,atidxx64 .dll,atiumdag,atidxx32,atidxx32,atiumdva,atiumd6a. cap,atitmm64.dll
Name : AMD Radeon HD 8280
VideoModeDescription : 1366 x 768 x 4294967296 colors
VideoProcessor : AMD Radeon HD 8280 (0x9836)
AdapterCompatibility : Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.
AdapterRAM : 512.000 MB
CurrentHorizontalResolution : 1366
CurrentVerticalResolution : 768
CurrentNumberOfColors : 4294967296
CurrentRefreshRate : 60
DriverDate : 20130313000000.000000-000

***** System OS *****
Manufacturer : Microsoft Corporation
Caption : Microsoft Windows 8
BuildNumber : 9200
Version : 6.2.9200
BuildType : Multiprocessor Free
CodeSet : 1252
CountryCode : 1
CSName : PROWLERAVIATION
Locale : 0409
Organization : Hewlett-Packard
OSArchitecture : 64-bit
EncryptionLevel : 256
FreePhysicalMemory : 1915124
FreeSpaceInPagingFiles : 486768
FreeVirtualMemory : 2363004
InstallDate : 20131112192033.000000-480
LastBootUpTime : 20131120215123.499611-480
MaxProcessMemorySize : 8589934464
NumberOfProcesses : 62
ServicePackMajorVersion : 0
ServicePackMinorVersion : 0
BootDevice : \Device\HarddiskVolume2
SystemDevice : \Device\HarddiskVolume4
SystemDirectory : C:\Windows\system32
SystemDrive : C:
TotalVirtualMemorySize : 4286724
TotalVisibleMemorySize : 3631364
WindowsDirectory : C:\Windows

Description : Local Fixed Disk
DeviceID : C:
FileSystem : NTFS
FreeSpace : 360800690176
VolumeName : Windows
VolumeSerialNumber : FEEE8079
Compressed : False
Size : 475701178368

Description : Local Fixed Disk
DeviceID : D:
FileSystem : NTFS
FreeSpace : 2391007232
VolumeName : RECOVERY
VolumeSerialNumber : 74D1A29F
Compressed : False
Size : 23579324416

Description : CD-ROM Disc
DeviceID : E:
FileSystem : UDF
FreeSpace : 0
VolumeName : BobCAD V24 (Build546) Release CD
VolumeSerialNumber : 0A5C11FC
Compressed : False
Size : 539883520

[Trotline]

If it ran fine before, it's probably not a hardware resource issue, unless you have another application open and it's fighting BobCAD for memory. If it's happening with just BobCAD running, pop open the Windows Task Manager and look for anything that's running in the background that might be causing a conflict. Are you using an external mouse, and if so, does it do the same thing using the trackpad with the mouse disconnected? (That's an unlikely one, but it's so easy to check that I threw it in for free.)

Just some guesses. Failing anything else, you could start uninstalling the other apps, beginning with the most recently installed, and see if you can isolate the conflict that way. Good luck!

Luke

[BurrMan]

Download Latest drivers from amd.

[TAProwler]

Thanks Trotline & BurrMan.

I've tried messing Win 8 settings, I've tried uninstalling all of what I've installed after installing V24, I've downloaded and installed all the latest video drivers. Still no joy.
Here's what I get when trying to use the select tool:

Attachment 209682

This is maddening. It's probably just some little stupid setting somewhere. But, FINDING IT!

The select tool works, and all that trash clears as soon as you let up on the left click - but who wants to look at that trash when you're trying to select stuff?
When I let go of the left click, the items selected still turn red, etc. It's just that the video is not being replaced with the correct video during the selection.
WTF?

Has anyone else had any video issues with the Win8 and V24 combination?

Thanks for any help.
R/Todd

[BurrMan]

Focus on the driver. After you download the new one, when you run it, choose to "uninstall all previous drivers". (You may have to choose the custom over express)

Also, make sure there are "no other drivers" loaded, like if there was another video card before.


Then, re-install the new driver (Re-start the computer in between. If you restart the computer and it comes back with the old drivers loaded, you'll need to follow ati instructions for getting a clean, full uninstall first.)

If you still experience the display issue after getting a new, clean install of the driver, then you can go into the catalyst driver controller and start to drop the settings until your notebook can handle.

[TAProwler]

Well, I was able to get on with BCC tech support this morning/afternoon and the issue is Win8. According to Darren:

"This is something that is going to happen with the Windows 8. In windows 7 You were able to go to the properties settings on the icon and select the disable visual theme, and select the disable desktop composition, and this would fix that issue. Unfortunately, Windows 8 does not give you this option."

In fact, he loaded it onto his computer while we were on the phone and his was doing the same thing. So, if anyone else has V24 and is going to try to run it on a newer computer running Win8 - don't bother. It apparently won't work. Again, (for the search engines) BobCAD-CAM V24 does not work well with Windows 8 (Win8).

Did I mention earlier that I LOATHE, DETEST, and ABHOR the Win8 OS!!!! If I'd have wanted an android cellphone (or tablet) with a 15" monitor and keyboard, I'd have bought one! What a bunch of bunk.

Unless, there really is a way to turn off visual themes in Win8. Time to google some more. Unless there is another way to skin this cat, it looks like I'll be digging out that OEM copy of Win7 that I bought for the last (now dead) computer and installing it on this one. Oh, joy!

Hope this info is useful to others. Thanks for the help Trotline, BurrMan and Darren (at BCC tech support).

R/Todd

[SBC Cycle]

I used to get that with my old laptop with a "gaming" style nVidia card. The nVidia had a slider for "Acceleration". All I had to do was bump it down (less quality I believe) until the ghosting and trails stopped.

I think my old Dell Optiplex has an integrated AMD Radeon card, I'll check what my settings are there.

[jrmach]

I have heard repeatedly windows 8 Sucks for lots of reasons.This is a first that I heard it screws up BoB V24.That would reckon that V23 would have problems too?? I am planning a new computer in the next year.Come on windows 9.

[TAProwler]

Hey BurrMan,

I didn't see your post before I posted my last one. I'll do what you've suggested and give it a try. If I don't have to spend days setting up a new operating system, I'd rather not (and live with massive app downloading Win8 trying to mimick a smartphone crud).

Let ya know how it goes.
Thanks,
Todd

[BurrMan]

Also, to try out what Darren is speaking about, try to eliminate as much of the metro theme as you can by changing to a more basic one:

Try this:


1. Open Personalization by clicking the Start button Picture of the Start button, and then clicking Control Panel. In the search box, type personalization, and then click Personalization.


2.Under Basic and High Contrast Themes, click Windows 7 Basic theme.

[TAProwler]

Now that makes sense why it worked for a while and then stopped working correctly. When I started BC V24 after I first loaded it, it would flash a window saying that it was switching to the basic theme or something like that. Now, I looked and I don't have those in my personalization list any more. I only have high contrast themes, nothing basic. I think it went away when I did a large number of Windows Important updates recently. Something in that bunch of updates must have gotten rid of that basic theme. I'll have to look and see if I can download it again and install it, or whatever you do with those things.

Thanks for the pointer. This might lead to some thing good. Thanks.
R/ Todd

[BurrMan]

Should find it here:

C:\Windows\Resources\Ease of Access Themes

double click it to reload it to the personalization area.

[TAProwler]

Tried all the High Contrast themes listed there, no luck.
I don't see any basic themes listed there either.
Dang.
Ill try to re-install the graphics drivers again.
Thanks,
Todd

[shred]

This is a BCC XOR/redraw thing that probably will never be fixed, but your best bet is to try and get the system out of 'desktop compositioning' mode, which is what the Win 7 setting did.
I don't have a Win8 box handy, but maybe there's a Win-7 or XP- compatibility-mode setting available-- that sounds like what it was doing before, although Microsoft does their best to make sure you can't disable DWM easily.

If all else fails you could run BCC in a virtual environment with Win 7 or XP in it, but that would be a major PITA as well.

[mmoe]

You could try this out:

Enable Hidden Aero Lite Theme In Windows 8 For (Slightly) Improved Performance | Redmond Pie

I don't have Windows 8, so can't say if it will help or not, but I think it's as close as you'll get to a Windows Basic setting in Windows 8. Viacad automatically changes the Windows appearance to "Basic" in Windows 7, so there is some validity to the idea that it makes a difference. I've set my Windows 7 to Basic and have had fewer issues with older CAD/CAM systems in general, and a noticeable improvement in performance while rotating/panning objects that might stutter otherwise (very large models).

[TAProwler]

Thank you all for the suggestions and tips. Unfortunately, after 12+ hrs of messing with this issue I still have not gotten anywhere.

I got my machine set up with the Areo Lite theme as described here:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...56988011,d.cGE

I downloaded the latest graphics driver from HP. Then did the full uninstall by logging in as administrator and painstakingly deleting every reference to AMD and ATI in all folders, registry, and programs and features. Restarted and did the new driver install. Restarted and started AMD Vision Engine Control Center. Went thru every setting in the entire application and tried to set every option to what I expect is the best to combat this problem. Restarted and opened BC V24 and it's still acting the exact same way.

So, tomorrow I will tackle trying to search online and see if anyone has hacked Win8 to get rid of Desktop Composition.

This is ultimately frustrating.
R/Todd

[SBC Cycle]

Interesting. I just ordered a new entry level Dell Workstation yesterday and I noticed that Win 8 wasn't even an option for most of the "Precision" desktops. I guess I'm glad I got one before Win 7 went the way of the dodo.

[SBC Cycle]

I just did a search for your HP 2000. I realize the tech loaded V24 into his Win 8 setup and had the same problem but just as a side note, I think a budget laptop with any version of BCC is going to be a struggle. Not that you can't but if this is for business I would steer clear of integrated graphics. The Dell Optiplex system that I mentioned before handled V23-V24 without a lot of big problems but V25 is barely usable on it. V26 with full simulation actually required a replacement system. It just couldn't handle it.

[TAProwler]

I just did a search for your HP 2000. I realize the tech loaded V24 into his Win 8 setup and had the same problem but just as a side note, I think a budget laptop with any version of BCC is going to be a struggle.

Thanks SBC. Yeah, I figured that the integrated graphics might be a problem. But, are there any laptops any more that don't have integrated graphics?? I figured that if all else failed I could upgrade and give this box to one of the kids. Might have to do that.

Not that you can't but if this is for business I would steer clear of integrated graphics. The Dell Optiplex system that I mentioned before handled V23-V24 without a lot of big problems but V25 is barely usable on it.

I use this for my "side" business. My "Day Job" has me on the road about 18-20 days a month. I HAVE to have a laptop. I'd prefer to install the V24 on a desktop in the shop and just use it there, but I have to have it portable.

V26 with full simulation actually required a replacement system. It just couldn't handle it.

What did you find for a "replacement system"? Apparently, V25 and V26 were designed to run in the new Win8 environment and this DWM thing isn't an issue - is that correct?

Then this begs the question - should I upgrade to a newer version of BCC??

OMG, my phone is ringing already!!!! LOL.
R/Todd

[TAProwler]

So, I looked into disabling Desktop Composition in Win8. Apparently, this is a portion of the Windows DWM. I tried to do what is presented here:
[Archived] How to disable Desktop Composition in Windows 8 and 8.1 [inv
and here:
Disable Desktop Composition challenge.. - xda-developers

Both are essentially the same and involve the following steps:
Download and open process explorer
Kill explorer.exe (start a couple of CMD boxes first)
Suspend winlogon.exe
Kill dwm.exe
Move dwm.exe (put in another folder somewhere)
Unsuspend winlogon.exe
Use CMD to start BCV24

BCC V24 did run when I started it. But, with the DWM killed, V24 would not draw any of my files in the working area. All of the application functions seemed to work OK and they were all presented in the GUI. It would load my part files. And, the good news is that the select tool seemed to work correctly. But, the part files would not draw or show up. The working area of V24 just collected a bunch graphics left over from doing BC functions. It would never draw, or redraw, the part file.

Apparently, killing all of DWM is too big of a stick to beat this problem with.


This guy is doing a very similar work around for the Flash application:
Disable DWM in Windows 8 to run Flash MX - YouTube

So, there may still be hope to get this figured out yet.
But, after burning about 3 hrs on this issue this morning, still no luck.
Time to go do something else for a while.

R/Todd