[WilliamD]

You have to see this! Pretty incredible.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HF__Qlhtn...=water%20power

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2006/05/340246.shtml

This is hopefully the future.

[Geof]

You have to see this! Pretty incredible.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HF__Qlhtn...=water%20power

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2006/05/340246.shtml

This is hopefully the future.

If you believe in this as being a source of energy I can refer you to a bridge in Brooklyn that might be for sale and a large acreage of desert property in Florida.

[WilliamD]

There's a pretty crazy battle going on at digg.com. Seems pretty divided. The inventor's claims are a tad different than previous "snake oil salesmen." We'll see what happens though. The digg battle is flat out hilarious at some points.

Is that desert property in the hurricane zone? If no, me and a couple of friends might be interested. PM me with details.

[diarmaid]

The welder application is facinating, can anyone enlighten me on the physical/chemical properties of the flame that allow it to burn 'cold' until contact with certain substances?

Using hydrogen as a fuel has been around for decades but hasn't become widespread yet for various reasons, including highly misconceived notions of safety concerns (Its much safer than gasoline). The video mentioned that he has patented his idea, maybe he figured out a better way to break down the molecules of water into component parts, or a better way to use them.

I can't wait to see how long it takes before the big oil companies buy his patent - Result: He gets rich, and the technology never gets released. It won't be the first time.

[Geof]

The welder application is facinating, can anyone enlighten me on the physical/chemical properties of the flame that allow it to burn 'cold' until contact with certain substances?...

When you are unconcerned with being technically or scientifically correct you can make any sort of claim. I think a stoichiometric Hydrogen-Oxygen flame is the hottest you can get. This is the reason it is used on the Shuttle main rocket motor; higher combustion temperature means higher exhaust gas velocity means higher specific impulse. In short accelerate at higher rate to higher velocity.

The claim that it is patented is meaningless. It is possible to patent inventions that are technically impossible and I think now it is even possible to patent what is essentially a perpetual motion machine provided the claims in the patent do not explicitly claim this. I remember reading a court case relating to the refusal of the US PTO to issue a patent on these grounds.

[bigz1]

Iceland is hoped to become the first hydrgen economy buy 2050. Already they have a small fleet of buses using hydrogen and are looking to convert their fishing fleet.

[MrWild]

BAH

Snake oil. The torch tip the guy held was cool for a reason. Look at it closely. The gas isn't igniting until it is at least 1/4" away from th e tip due to gas velocity out of the tip. You can do the same thing with a big tip, but the larger flame will burn you quicker.

Just another perpetual motion machine. Nothing is said about the power his device consumes to split the water into gas. It don't happen by magic.

[sdantonio]

The welder application is facinating, can anyone enlighten me on the physical/chemical properties of the flame that allow it to burn 'cold' until contact with certain substances?

Using hydrogen as a fuel has been around for decades but hasn't become widespread yet for various reasons, including highly misconceived notions of safety concerns (Its much safer than gasoline). The video mentioned that he has patented his idea, maybe he figured out a better way to break down the molecules of water into component parts, or a better way to use them.

I can't wait to see how long it takes before the big oil companies buy his patent - Result: He gets rich, and the technology never gets released. It won't be the first time.

Regarding burning cold until it contacts certain substances... after 30 years of doing physics in the lab, I have no clue as to a mechanism. I would think if he is forming water as a combustion product then that should actually take heat away from the process as the water is revaporized to steam

Hydrogen as a fuel has been around for years true. Safest when adsorbed to a metal surface (similar to a metal catalyst). But very flamable when left in the gas state. The flamability and the fact that electrolysis costs more in electricity than it gives back in energy is the reason it hasn't caught on yet. Also, no one wants to invest in making hydrogen stations until there are cars available and the car manufacturers don't want to make the cars until there are places to refuel them.

I can't wait to see how long it takes before the big oil companies buy his patent... ain't it the truth

Be cautious before you invest in this guy's technology. Remember the promise of cold fussion and Smirnova's room temp atactic polypropylene superconductor.

[Geof]

Iceland is hoped to become the first hydrgen economy buy 2050. Already they have a small fleet of buses using hydrogen and are looking to convert their fishing fleet.

Yes, and a few years ago someone had the bright idea to generate electricity in Iceland and export it through an undersea cable going past the Faroes and on to Scotland. I will believe it when I see it.

[bigz1]

Regarding burning cold until it contacts certain substances... after 30 years of doing physics in the lab, I have no clue as to a mechanism. I would think if he is forming water as a combustion product then that should actually take heat away from the process as the water is revaporized to steam

Hydrogen as a fuel has been around for years true. Safest when adsorbed to a metal surface (similar to a metal catalyst). But very flamable when left in the gas state. The flamability and the fact that electrolysis costs more in electricity than it gives back in energy is the reason it hasn't caught on yet. Also, no one wants to invest in making hydrogen stations until there are cars available and the car manufacturers don't want to make the cars until there are places to refuel them.

I can't wait to see how long it takes before the big oil companies buy his patent... ain't it the truth

Be cautious before you invest in this guy's technology. Remember the promise of cold fussion and Smirnova's room temp atactic polypropylene superconductor.

You can fill up that hydrogen car here.

http://www.geothermie.de/egec-geothe...irst_shell.htm

[miljnor]

A mixed hydrogen-oxygen fuel generator system uses an electrolytic solution to generate gaseous hydrogen-oxygen fuel through the electrolysis of water. This generator system includes: at least one electrolytic cell with multiple metallic plates used as an internal isolation system in which two of the plates separately connect to both the positive and negative terminal of a DC circuit. These plates are used for the electrolysis of the electrolytic solution in the cell(s) to produce, under pressure, mixed hydrogen-oxygen fuel. The apparatus also includes a cooling system containing a water cooling tank in which there are two zones: one is the electrolytic solution circulation coil and the another is a water circulation zone. The cooler provides the circulating, cooling water used to adjust the temperature of the operating cell and of the electrolyte solution to within a given temperature range in order to ensure that the cell is not affected by excessively elevated temperatures that can stop operations due to cell overheating. Another effect of this cooling system is to precipitate moisture out of the generated gas products. The ignition flame temperature of the gaseous fuel produced can be adjusted for specific applications by passage of the hydrogen/oxygen gas stream through a temperature-control fluid. Thus, continuous 24 hours operation can be achieved along with better gas production efficiency and fuel cell energy generation.

this is the patent

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.htm&r=2&f=G&l=50&d=PTXT&p=1&p=1&S1=((hydrogen+AND+torch)+AND+klein)&OS=hydrogen+and+torch+and+klein&RS=((hydrogen+AND+torch)+AND+klein)

It seams like he is using an electrolytic solution of some sort to boost the production of Hydrogen and oxygen somehow. So maybe he has the energy consumption down do to some feature I am not aware of (i am not a phsysist).

[diarmaid]

But very flamable when left in the gas state. The flamability and the fact that electrolysis costs more in electricity than it gives back in energy is the reason it hasn't caught on yet.

I agree with all you said. But just to point out that hydrogen has a higher flash point temperature than gasoline, and if it leaks it dissipates harmelessly into the atmosphere, unlike gasoline, which dissipates into highly flammable, heavier than air fumes before breaking up into the atmosphere....Its much safer overall.

[sdantonio]

You can fill up that hydrogen car here.

http://www.geothermie.de/egec-geothe...irst_shell.htm

I have enough trouble justifying the wasted time just driving across town to the BJ's to save $0.10 per gallon. Iceland would be one hell of a commute just to get gas

[sdantonio]

I agree with all you said. But just to point out that hydrogen has a higher flash point temperature than gasoline, and if it leaks it dissipates harmelessly into the atmosphere, unlike gasoline, which dissipates into highly flammable, heavier than air fumes before breaking up into the atmosphere....Its much safer overall.

The only problem would be that hydrogen reacts rather violently with pure O2, even at room temp. So if your car were carrying 2 tanks and the both leaked, like from an car accident, then your screwed. Also, have you seen the damage a tank can do if it catastrophically started leaking (like the valve gets broken off)?

Other than these two rare occurances, your absolutely right.

Time to pull the accountants out of the closet and calculate the mortality rate based on fixing these two or not fixing them and calculate profits vs potential lawsuit.

[WilliamD]

After being intrigued and researching the subject nearly all day, I would like to point a few things out.

- I find it interesting that a few on this thread have already pointed to claims of a "perpetual motion" machine that no one has suggested. Nowhere in the video or his website is anything like that even implied. He even mentions it takes .70 cents an hour in electricty. This same point was brought up on other sites, so I'm thinking people are stuck in this mindset, more than others seeing it for the first time.

- Yes, the big "breakthrough" is the electrolyte they've developed. It's not the typical electrolysis setup with water and two cathodes. There's something else in the mix.

- It is true that this is no knew idea. What is new is the process, and that is what is changing things. Some people have even already made this idea work. He is the first to get very far with it. I'm sure with the oil crisis and prices, it will turn more heads today than ever.

- As optomistic and intrigued as I am, I'm waiting for him get millions from Mobil and the idea declared to be "unpursueable." A lot of money is at steak. Even if it equates to marginally cheaper fuel economy, it would lesson our dependency for fossil fuels and unstable foreign countries.

[KEYTEEM]

Veeeerry iintereeesting! worth keepin an ( I ) on, just
to see what the facts make of it down the road ,anything's possible :cheers:

[Geof]

What is new is the process, and that is what is changing things. Some people have even already made this idea work. He is the first to get very far with it. I'm sure with the oil crisis and prices, it will turn more heads today than ever.

- As optomistic and intrigued as I am, I'm waiting for him get millions from Mobil and the idea declared to be "unpursueable." A lot of money is at steak. Even if it equates to marginally cheaper fuel economy, it would lesson our dependency for fossil fuels and unstable foreign countries.

I made the comment about perpetual motion machines with reference to the fact that it is possible to patent almost anything whether it is feasible, economical or what. Just because something is patented is no indication that it has any technical, scientific or economic merit.

The process of electrolysis of water is not new and no matter what catalysts or mechanisms are used the energetics do not change. The chemical energy that can be reclaimed from the recombination of the hydrogen and oxygen that is produced is less than the amount of energy supplied to the process in the form of electricity. The difference is dissipated as heat and this heat is mentioned in the quote posted by miljnor.

As an alternative to petroleum gas based vehicle fuels, including natural gas (methane) and lpg (propane) this idea is not sensibly or economically pursueable. Electricity is needed to produce the hydrogen; the electricity has to be generated in some manner and the amount of electricity needed means that so called green alternatives, solar, wind, tidal are inadequate and there is inadequate hydro power resources in any country other than Iceland. An option would be to use Nuclear generated electricity which is not likely to fly. This leaves coal powered thermal generation or thermal generation using oil or natural gas (currently used quite extensively). This is not reducing any dependency on fossil fuels; the reverse is the case because even more fossil fuels would be needed when all the inefficiences are taken into account. Using a given quantity of energy in the form of fossil fuel to generate electricity; which is then used to electolyse water to produce hydrogen; which is then used for vehicle propulsion with either a normal engine burning hydrogen as the fuel or using a fuel cell to power an electric vehicle, is less efficient than using the fossil fuel directly, as is done now, to fuel vehicles.

[miljnor]

The process of electrolysis of water is not new and no matter what catalysts or mechanisms are used the energetics do not change. The chemical energy that can be reclaimed from the recombination of the hydrogen and oxygen that is produced is less than the amount of energy supplied to the process in the form of electricity. The difference is dissipated as heat and this heat is mentioned in the quote posted by miljnor.

while this is true, If you are using some form of chemical reaction to aid the electrical production this still may prove economical. It would realy depend on what chemicals your using and how much or how hard they are to refine.

As a side note you could say the same about petrolem products. The only difference is mother nature is doing the hard part.

[ironDigit]

woo hooo

hotter then the sun's surface
but just slightly warm too the touch ??

3horay's for progress !!

wouldn't it be a lot safer to carry around the whole unit in the back of your car instead of just a tank of compressed hydrogengas?? the old units might have been too big and heavy for a lil fiat but i can see this guys unit fitting right in and we'ld be tankin only water and some a that magic liquid of his

[pstockley]

Aside from this particular invention, the whole hydrogen business is a whole load of bull**t. Its not a source of energy, its a storage medium and a pretty bad one at that. Its inefficient to produce, hard to contain, explosive. The whole notion of using electricity to produce hydrogen to then convert it back to electricity is crazy. Ok it may be clean to burn and have no emissions but in the long run, lack of a sustainable energy source will be the end of us before emissions come into the picture. To my mind, something like the following appears to be a way better solution to energy storage if it turns out to be real (although I will believe it when I see it!).

http://dymaxionworld.blogspot.com/20...er-bullet.html