[freeidaho]

Up to this point my approach to the Tormach has been prejudiced a bit by turning the handles on regular milling machines over a 30 year period.

As such, I was just going to buy a big set of R8 collets and use them like I always have. But seeing a friends setup first hand got me to thinking about the ER40 possibilities.

Of course the plus is that a tool's height is set once, entered into the tool table, and that is it. Of course it is a must for those with an ATC, but that is not in my future for a long long time. It seems like the down side is that one doesn't just need a full set of collet sizes, but lots of duplicates too.

So I'm asking what the common wisdom here is. Does one start off with a full set of ER40's collets and then add several duplicates in common end mill shank sizes? Or put another way, how does one have enough ER40 collets on hand in the right size without just dumping lots of money into duplicates that may never be needed? Or, how many duplicates to you have on hand that have never been needed? Or what sizes do y'all use on a weekly basis?

Or is an ER40, setup even the way to go for a guy on a strict budget? Should I just do R8 collets for a couple of years until the fun-fund recovers a bit, then invest in ER40?

I'd appreciate your thoughts very much,

kr

[sansbury]

Fixed-height tooling is definitely not just for ATC work, it's really a must for efficient CNC work on any job that uses more than one tool. I switched to TTS tooling after about a year of using collets on a little benchtop mill, and I can't imagine going back. I don't have an ATC or power drawbar.

I took a tooling inventory and here's what I have:
6 endmill holders (3x 3/8, 2x 1/4, 1x 1/2)
5 drill chucks (3x 0-1/4", 1x 0-3/8, 1x 0-1/2)
2x ER-16 collet holders
T/C Tapping head ER-16
Boring head arbor
Flymill holder

I do most of my work with TTS EM holders which are relatively cheap. I got the collet holders since I had the T/C tapping head and collets, so this gave me a little more flexibility and precision for small endmills. I got the ER-16 model to save Z space in case I got the ATC someday. If you go with ER-20 you can get knockoff TTS holders for a lot less than Tormach's.

ER-40 would be overkill for a Tormach because it's made to take tools with a shank up to 1-1/2" and you'll rarely if ever want to do so on an 1100 because it doesn't have the horsepower or rigidity to use them well. An ER-32, ER-25, or even ER-20 system would be enough and will cost less.

My experience has been that I have a 3/8 3FL EM, 1/4 3FL EM, and a spotting drill that never leave their holders (I work mostly in 6061), and most of my jobs are run with those, 1-3 drills, and sometimes a smaller or specialized endmill. So for any job I am height-setting 1-3 tools. Once you get used to the process it takes about the same amount of time to height-set one tool once as it does to touch off once on a part, so by your second part you're getting time back. In terms of what you need, if you're doing basic stuff with 1/8-3/8" endmills, you could start with probably a half dozen holders. I'm pretty happy with my inventory at this point. If I started doing more steel and needed to swap endmills more often I'd probably buy a few more 3/8" holders.

[mike sr1]

I use 90 percent er 20 holders, I have about 30 of them now, each regular use tool gets one of those so that once the height is entered I also have 6 drill chucks for the irregular tools and a few of the endmill holders, dont really like them too much though.

er20 collets on ebay are cheap, the work I do doesnt require high accuracy, and if you get a bad on just pitch it, I really havent gotten a bad one yet though.

I use a 2.5" face mill that requires a holder, I indicated and turned one of my cheapos down from a r8 to .750 straight, works well, I already had those for the Bridgeport.
I have the Tormach floating tapping head that I use often too.

I like setting up the tools in individual holders, just one more thing I dont have to remember ha!

[Hirudin]

I get the impression that almost everyone uses ER-20 holders almost exclusively. That's the case for me at least. The idea of using a tool with a 1.5" shank scares me.

I can say that the number of tools that I've broken since I switched to TTS collet holders has dropped dramatically. The time savings alone are worth quite a bit to me as well. With my somewhat slow power draw bar my tool changes are somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 seconds.

The sizes you'll need will vary based on what you're doing, of course. You can get a lot of tools with 1/4" and 1/2" shanks. A lot of smaller tools use 1/8" shanks too. Those three sizes are probably holding the majority of the tools that I use.

As for how to avoid needing to buy a lot of extras... that I cannot answer. :/ One way to save money is to buy the TTS-style ER-20 tool holders on Ebay. I have a lot of them and I'd say they're definitely the best bang for your buck. ~$15 each is a lot easier to swallow than ~$60. They aren't as good as the genuine Tormach holders though... more like 90% as good.

Here's a video I recorded comparing the Ebay holders to Tormach...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBpjOCYVaD4

[mike sr1]

I just ordered 10 more of those er 20 holders last week. The ones I got before were good quality.

[TurboStep]

~$15 each is a lot easier to swallow than ~$60.

Tormach have recently reduced the price of their ER toolholders. They now cost $34.75, that's also much easier to swallow. The last time I ordered they also had a rebate for 6 or more - but I'm not sure that's still available.
I just went onto their homepage to check the price and noticed they now also have ER32 holders. Never noticed them before!
Step

[nitewatchman]

I use ER-20's and ER-32's. I have 20 or so ER-20's and 10 ER-32's. I can't see a need for ER-40 on a Tormach.

The ER-20's basically cover tools the 1100 is comfortable with. I use the 32's primarily for large diameter reamers and end mills used for plunge cutting. I will also run a smaller end mill in a 32 if my collets in a given size are all taken.

nitewatchman

[freeidaho]

Sorry guys, the ER40 was a typo.

But the heart of my question is what sizes do you all use and how many. The answer to that will help me with the cost analysis.

Thanks all,

kr

[RussMachine]

I love the ER20 holders.
I have 2 holders, plus the ER20 Tapping head, and I'm ready to buy 2 more holders.
I ordered a set of 1/16"-1/2" collets on Ebay.
Then ordered the oddball size collets for tap holding from Tormach.
Now I'm ready to order the 1mm-13mm set, also from Ebay.
The collets for the odd tap shank sizes were impossible to find on Ebay, so I just ordered them individually from Tormach.
I suggest starting with either a metric or inch set (Ebay), and then add the tap shank sizes you need.
Add collets as needed.

[freeidaho]

Thanks everyone,

Based on this video, it seems like one would want to use the smallest tool holders when possible. So maybe ER16 up to its maximum size, then ER20 from there up to 1/2", then ER32 from there up to 3/4" or so. I have some 6" long 3/4" end mills, but that is about the biggest.

CNC-G0704 #5 Comparing ER32, ER20, and ER16 Collet Chucks - YouTube

Your thoughts,

kr

[mike sr1]

I only have er20's and I cut one pocket that is done with a .093 endmill, for visibility an er 16 would be nice for that operation.

[Hirudin]

Tormach have recently reduced the price of their ER toolholders. They now cost $34.75, that's also much easier to swallow. The last time I ordered they also had a rebate for 6 or more - but I'm not sure that's still available.Step

Sweet! Next time I need tool holders I'll definitely check them out first. I hope the quality stays the same!

Based on this video, it seems like one would want to use the smallest tool holders when possible. So maybe ER16 up to its maximum size, then ER20 from there up to 1/2", then ER32 from there up to 3/4" or so. I have some 6" long 3/4" end mills, but that is about the biggest.

The person in the video makes a good point. I've thought about getting some ER-16 collet holders for the same reason. The only valid reason I can think of to exclusively use ER-20 is that the ER-16 diameter doesn't look that much smaller. I'll have to go measure my low-profile ER-16 collet nuts to see what the actual difference is...

ER-32 nut (like the one in the video)
Round: 50 mm

ER-20 (normal)
Round: 34 mm
Hex: 30 mm

ER-16 (normal)
Round: 28 mm
Hex: 25 mm

ER-16 (low profile)
Round: 22 mm

[Beezle]

I started out with a mix of end mill holders and ER20 holders and now the end mill holders just collect dust.

I have 34 ER20 holders at this point and about twice as many collets to cover any size I might need, plus lots of duplicates in 1/8, 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2" of course. I also spend the extra for the balanced collet nuts. I find they make a real difference in vibration at 5100 RPM.

Tormach had a sale recently if you bought 6 TTS tools at a clip and that was nice. All of my TTS tools are Tormach sourced save one B52 fly cutter.

I think they are worth the money. I paid about $35 + $20 for the balanced nut for most of mine. Runout is very low in my experience.

[Bob La Londe]

I don't know about ER 40 persay, but I've got an ER25 collet holder and several ER16 collet holders for my Hurco mill, and for setting up some jobs I have used most of the sizes. Its really nice to be able to chuck up a #21, #7, D, & F drill and just leave them ready to go. (10-32 screws and 1/4" alignment pins) I also find myself using a LOT of 1/8 shank bits. If you are going to have enough tool holders I would say buy a complete set in 64ths and also get 4 each of 1/8, 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2 and 2 each of 3/16 and 5/16.

You can never have too many tool holders.

I don't know if there is any "common" wisdom, but that's what I would start with if I had the cash.

[TurboStep]

Based on this video, it seems like one would want to use the smallest tool holders when possible.

Up to now I've use ER-20 holders almost exclusively. I have however come across a small problem...
I use the Tormach holders for everything except drills (for drills I use mostly Chinese ER-20 holders) and find the runout, when measured on a V-Block, to be almost nonexistent. I also like the Maritool precision collets with runout specified to be less than 0.0003". The problem is that as I start to tighten the nut the runout starts off very low, but just as the nut is beginning to tighten (sorry I don't have any torque values) the runout begins to increase - rather quickly. This is most obvious with smaller cutters, say 1/8" shank but unfortunately its exactly these cutters that need the lowest runout.
I assume that this is due to the segments of the collet twisting due to the rotation of the nut gripping on the nose of the collet. I have added grease to the inside of the nut and this definitely helps. Before anyone asks, yes I have purchased bearing nuts but I haven't tried them yet.
I'm wondering if ER-16 collets might be less prone to twisting because the difference between the inside and outside diameters would be less when compared to ER-20 collets. Does anyone have any experience with this?
Step

[mountaindew]

I don't know about ER 40 persay, but I've got an ER25 collet holder and several ER16 collet holders for my Hurco mill, and for setting up some jobs I have used most of the sizes. Its really nice to be able to chuck up a #21, #7, D, & F drill and just leave them ready to go. (10-32 screws and 1/4" alignment pins) I also find myself using a LOT of 1/8 shank bits. If you are going to have enough tool holders I would say buy a complete set in 64ths and also get 4 each of 1/8, 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2 and 2 each of 3/16 and 5/16.

You can never have too many tool holders.

I don't know if there is any "common" wisdom, but that's what I would start with if I had the cash.

People should be warned about this! hehe
I agree with Bob, Never enough dedicated tool holders. Another member here noted how you will collect a number of vises over time.
He kept secret how bad the ER problem will get. Hard to go long without ordering some collets. And I see need to pick up full sets!

md