[RA-Bowtie]

G'day all,

I've done a lot of machining on a manual mill over the years, but I'll be buying the 1100 in the next couple of months.

If you've never worked with a CNC before, working out the myriad of tooling options and accessories can be a bit daunting.

But I've found these forums to be a gold mine of information and I've managed (over the last 3 weeks) to figure out what I need.

I'm very comfortable using Windows and over the years I've had to learn MS Office, graphics programs, etc. So I know there's going to
be a learning curve and some level of frustration.

As a "complete" novice to CadCam software ... this is driving me bat-sh*t crazy !

I've tried to research the basic terminology and I can't even find out what 2.5D is !

I think the X and Y axis is the 2D and the Z axis is 3D, or am I completely wrong here ?

I've seen so many posts on here (and on other sites) and the threads seem to get hijacked by people that are proficient
in this
type of software and (honestly) don't remember what it's like to be a beginner. Then they're offering they're recommendations.

Tormach sells the Sprutcam, but it seems (from what I've read) that it's idiosyncratic and not a lot of fun to learn.

I'm NOT a computer nerd, but I'm not afraid to learn.

I think (at some stage) I'll be machining on the 4th axis, so I'm assuming that will figure into the equation.

I'll be machining mainly Aluminium and some Titanium, and I'll need to cut threads.

I'm sure that there's more questions that people will ask, but hopefully this is a start.

I was hoping to spend less than 2K on the software.

Any help would be gratefully appreciated.

Michael

[WOTDesigns]

I would recommend buying Solidworks or inventor and using hsmxpress add on. I just left a paid seat of Mastercam to start using hsm because it's so much faster and more intuitive (after 3 years of Mastercam I can program the same parts faster in hsm having used it for 3 weeks)

Hsmxpress is 2.5 D. You are right: 2 axis is 2D. Think of a waterjet or plasma cutter. It's 2d because they can't cut part of it 0.25" and the rest 0.75". 2.5 is the ability to cut varying depth. 3D is continuous changes in 3+ directions at any given time and is slow as hell, complicated and takes expensive software... Or just cambam for $150 which was first software. Honestly it does almost everything I used Mastercam to do sadly




Brian
WOT Designs

[RA-Bowtie]

G'day Brian,

Thanks for the reply.

I have to ask ... I seen this several times before .... what is a "paid seat" ?

Is it just another way of saying " a licensed copy" ?

And thanks for the explanation on 2D, 2.5D and 3 D ... that makes sense to me now.

It's funny, you know the old saying - ask the right questions and you get the right answers.

The problem is, you could spend week playing around with the software and then realise that it won't do what you want.

I'm trying to learn from other beginners and what they're experiences were/are.

So, if I use CamBam, will I need any other 3 party programs, or what I produce in the program will be ready to use ?

Michael

[WOTDesigns]

The whole seat thing is a point of contention for me. It's not a licensed copy because that you could sell or give away. With a lot of these big software packages if you "buy" a seat it's yours. Until you don't need it... Then you have to give it back. It's the dumbest effing thing to me. I have been using a paid seat that belongs to another company in exchange for doing all of their programming. I got some $ on top but not enough to justify the time spent.

So paid seat is just a clever way of saying rented. Not owned outright.

As far as if it can do what you want question. Any of them can. Some just take more effort. I could program your parts by hand with a calculator and a blueprint but it ain't very quick. Cambam required I draw a lot of extra layers to get it to do exactly what I wanted. So did Mastercam. But Mastercam created much better tool paths and I had a lot more control over the fine details... That's the problem. Too much control. To many things to forget or click wrong for me.

HSMWorks / express is damn easy. I have been using Solidworks for all my cad for 5 years so being able to accept an iges file from a customer on a more current version (Solidworks is non-backward compatible) and open an assembly, draw my raw material, drop my vise with soft jaws in and click a few surfaces and BOOM I gave G code.

Sounds simple. It ain't. I've spent 7 weeks tuning the post and settings to create efficient G code my new machine likes. Same thing with Mastercam, albre, cambam and any other software. There is a learning curve with them all and they all require tweaking.

BUT they can all do anything within their scope with some effort.

HSMXPRESS is 2.5d a D does anything you will need. 4th axis requires more $... Or learning G code and manually creating macros to do what you need.

An example is I just got my first "real" cnc and decided I needed a macro to cut soft jaws since I have a slew of parts that is them and need to be recut every day. All manual coding: open program, (change if needed) depth of cut, width of cut, which tool, tool diameter, wcs, jaw size. Hit cycle start and it machines front and rear jaw with rough and finish pass.

No CAM package can compete with the speed of hand writing a macro or code for stuff like that. It would take me longer to walk to my pc and back then to load and edit the code right on the machine.

If you're serious about designing parts but solidworks or inventor. I'm partial to Solidworks because I have, use and love it. I design working assemblies and test Designs to failure without cutting a chip.

If you use Solidworks HSM IS FREAKING great. Oh... And free. No I'm not affiliated or even experienced with it but I'm so damn impressed with 90% of it that I'm hoping they work on the other 10.

Cruise over to hsm forum and look at all the questions I've asked in the last 4 weeks. Every one was answered in a day and I'm rolling along now.

I just shot some videos of the new machine making parts today I'll upload to my YouTube tonight.

YouTube.com/PriddyShiddy (it was a clothing company I had years ago.

I'm just a hobbiest with fun toys and no boss. I've learned every damn thing I know the same way you are: subscribe to forums and try to wear out the Google such engine. 4 years ago I had never seen an end mill in person. It's a fun hobby/job but it ain't work if you love it. I has my first sub-90 hour "work" week in 6 months last week because I was at Stagecoach Music Festival for 5 days... And I haven't "worked" a day in over 14 months now. =)

Brian
WOT Designs

[WOTDesigns]

Clumbsy thumbsy. The previous post was typed on my phone. Excuse the errors

Brian
WOT Designs

[Hirudin]

HSM Works Express and SolidWorks seem to be the most oft-recommended software duo I see in the two subforums I follow (the Novakon and Tormach subforums).

I haven't tried HSM Works Express yet, but I do use SolidWorks. SolidWorks is amazingly powerful! It has some quirks here and there, and paying their exorbitant "maintenance" fees* isn't fun, but overall it is very good. If you're just starting out with CAD you might find it easier to learn as you won't have to unlearn old CAD techniques. If you can swing the price I think you'll be happy with it.

I'm no expert, but I have tested out a few different CAM packages. The two packages I've used most extensively are RhinoCAM and SolidCAM. Not to sound too jaded or anything, but I still haven't found a CAM program that wasn't buggy, unintuitive, and cumbersome. The fact that they charge so much for their software just adds insult to injury.

* maintenance fees, in case you aren't familiar, are a recurring fee (usually annually) you must pay if you want to update the software. So, if there's a bug in the program you only get the update if you're paid-up with your maintenance. If you ask me it's a complete sham, bordering on extortion. I've heard that some software stops working entirely if you don't pay. Thankfully, SolidWorks will continue to work without maintenance (you just won't get updates). They do charge a penalty, of $500 I believe, if you let your maintenance lapse for too long.
You also usually get tech support when you're paid-up.

[RA-Bowtie]

Hi Brian,

I actually did have a look at your video .... some very clever ideas there mate !

You do realise that that Solidworks is over 5K to buy ... that's a bit expensive for my tastes, given the cost of the mill.

I've continued to keep researching software and I did look at Cambam and then I looked at V-Carve Pro (which Tormach sells).

There seems to be a lot of activity on their forums and I think it might be (at least) worth a look.

Thanks for the advice.

Michael

[RA-Bowtie]

Hi Hirudin,

Thanks for the "heads up" on the on going fees.

In Australia many years ago, we have a bush ranger (outlaw) called Ned Kelly, who use to wear a tin helmet that look like a mask.

So, when someone is price gouging, we usually say .... well, at least Ned Kelly wore a mask !

For some of the CadCam programs, It's like a license to print money, isn't it ?

Michael

[mike sr1]

I am relatively new to cnc, I have used Rhino for a couple years, does everything that I need it to do, it is a 3D program, costs less, about 800 dollars US, is relatively easy to learn as well.I use Sprutcam for the Cam Program, kind of tough to learn but does a lot for the money. I bought Sprut thru Tormach when I bought the machine.

[jeffery926]

Kubotek 3D - Direct CAD Software

Kubotek 3D - CAM for KeyCreator

https://www.youtube.com/user/KuboTuber1/videos

This is what I use and it's very user friendly. Try the full version for 30 days for free.

[Beezle]

Here's how it went for me. I was more or less in the same boat as I approached buying my 1100 in September, 2012. Fair amount of manual milling experience, plenty of Windows experience, zero CNC.

I kept it simple at first and bought a copy of Vectric's VCarve Pro. More or less 2D stuff - 2D shapes and various depths. Creating programs for the machine was quite simple and easy to learn.

I also bought the cheap Alibre and SprutCAM at that time.

After about six or eight months of using VCarve Pro, I started messing with SprutCAM and took Tormach's excellent week long class and got over that hump. Note that Tormach/SprutCAM America's videos do help a great deal. SprutCAM is a bit much, but it does work well. CAD wise I don't like the extrude 2D thing that Alibre, Solidworks, etc. are based on and bought a copy of IronCAD. IronCAD is more subtractive. You start with 3D shapes and edit those. Took me a few hours to get up and running on that.

At this point I can pretty much do anything. Took over a year, but very worth it.

I thought hard about Solidworks as it's so popular, but the cost is just not worth it for me. I can afford it, but I don't want to. I believe that they are missing a market, but the way things are, they sell support to companies willing to pay for it. As an engineer in the computer biz, I can't push the rules when it comes to obtaining software, so I have to be totally legit.

I did upgrade VCarve Pro to Vectric's Aspire and don't regret that. It's very reliable and simple to understand software. There are minor annoyances, but no bugs that I have seen.

[DiverBob]

As a hobbiest, funding can be tight so I understand the urge to get the best bang for the buck. The route I took might not be right for you but take a look at BobCad. I'm using version 24 now which can do more tha I'm capable of machining right now! The caveat that I always say is if you go this route buy the training video series. It consists of around 150 videos that show how each menu item works. It's a great way to learn the software and comes in real handy when you want to do something new.
The software can be purchased pretty reasonably, the salesmen aren't as bad in pestering you as they used to be. I had a version of the software years ago, could not make heads or tails of how to use it and ended up getting something else. I got a chance to purchase another copy (ver 20) with the training videos and that made a world of difference! The software is fairly simple to use once you watch the videos and I use it for all my CAD CAM work now.

Just my 2 cents...

[mountaindew]

Some comments from the cheap seats

Solid works and hsm express are impressive combo
Schools around here "I just checked" teach solid works and mastercam combo
I use sprut and autocad or bobcad combo

Honestly I could not even get a price on solid works or most of the high end software.
Some regional sales person called me and quoted me like 8k just for solid works....
Like ok, I don't have time for car sales, I want to drive away not play games.
I understand their revenue model and why they use it in most cases. Also why they have little interest in non commercial use.

Anyway your background will also help determine how long all this will take to get up to speed.
High end cad software alone like autocad, solid works and others are imho among the most complex programs on this planet. Having half a life time experience using cad software helped me climb that mountain!
So far my exposure to middle or high end cam software has also shown them to be extremely complex and not easy to use or even learn how to use, as you noted in your post.
As others have noted they all have bugs, complex programs always do. Much of this can be limited if the machine is dedicated to cad/cam and not used for games and other suspect software installs.

Note on my cam choice.
It is easy to see how a program like sprutcam and its interface / model design could bring people to tears or pound on desk. "had me scratching my head why".
Then I stepped back and looked at it from a programmer point of view. Some of the readers of this thread might know and understand o.o.p. "object oriented programming" when they see it. That alone was a huge step for me and that software. "again I have little background with oop so this helped". Understanding A little bit of how Microsoft c++ implements a oop data structure and how that data is shown and edited in associated list boxes will make 1000% difference in the performance of that program, and how often you pound on the desk. "My secret in case others wonder"

Overall just an opinion of a new cam user.
Bottom line and main reason I went with sprut was 4th axis ability. Again as a individual, I could not even get a cost for that with other vendors.
And I did not know enough about any other part of cam software to make a more informed decision so I trusted tormach was selling something decent like their tools.
Big leap of faith and for a few days I questioned if this was good idea.


Good luck with your new machine and cad/cam system!
A long challenging and rewarding road imho is ahead.
md

[jeffery926]

As a hobbiest, funding can be tight so I understand the urge to get the best bang for the buck. The route I took might not be right for you but take a look at BobCad. I'm using version 24 now which can do more tha I'm capable of machining right now! The caveat that I always say is if you go this route buy the training video series. It consists of around 150 videos that show how each menu item works. It's a great way to learn the software and comes in real handy when you want to do something new.
The software can be purchased pretty reasonably, the salesmen aren't as bad in pestering you as they used to be. I had a version of the software years ago, could not make heads or tails of how to use it and ended up getting something else. I got a chance to purchase another copy (ver 20) with the training videos and that made a world of difference! The software is fairly simple to use once you watch the videos and I use it for all my CAD CAM work now.

Just my 2 cents...

Compare these two forums in the CNCZone.

One has 168 pages of Problem & Need Help and the other only has 3 pages. Like I stated before, very user friendly.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/bobcad-cam/

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/cadkey-keycreator/

I have Bobcad Ver. 20 also and I gave up on it a few years ago for various reasons, but I have been using Cadkey since it was a DOS Version and now it's called KeyCreator and I'm still using it. They added Cam to it around 10 years ago as an option and now it has 4th axis ability.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Solidworks is $4k for the "Standard" version *I know, because I recently purchased it), which is all most people would need. The $8K version includes high-end feature most people would not require such as Finite Element Analysis. Inventor is VERY similar, and has a much better UI, for under $1k, the only major missing feature being it does not support assemblies. HSMXpress is free for both Solidworks and Inventor.

As for maintenance fees - they are basically paying for the very high cost of technical support, development cost for new versions, and on-going bug fixes. Creating and maintaining and improving such complex software requires hundreds of development, testing and support engineers, and tens of thousands of hours of work EVERY year. Expecting to get that for free would be like expecting the car companies to provide free lifetime extended service contracts on every car they sell. They'd be out of business in no time using that business model. About the only companies that can afford that are the Microsofts that have hundreds of millions of customers. No CAD company has that large a customer base.

Regards,
Ray L.

[WOTDesigns]

Solidworks definitely is a big bullet to bite.. But I'm still running 2011 I think and low and behold... It still makes parts designed in 2014

Inventor is VERY similar and only about $1K and also has a HSM add in. I think there are a few small differences but overall for $1K it beats the pants off anything else out there dollar for dollar since HSMXpress is free. Just my opinion and I've never used bobcad or rhino or most others because I watched videos and read all the questions and decided to not pay to play with any of the others I could afford.

Brian
WOT Designs

[WOTDesigns]

I have no desire to update annually so I left off the annual fee. If you update every 3 years and pay the "fine" it's actually cheaper than paying the maintenance fee. A customer of mine does that and I just have him send me iges files instead of SW files I can't open. I can still modify the part just as easily by cutting or adding, chamfering or anything else. I just ant see each op he created to make the part

Brian
WOT Designs

[mike sr1]

I know it costs to develop software, and I dont mind paying for it once.........

[victorofga]

ra bowtie

this way, you wont get answer that will truly satisfy you..

I think go out buy the cheapest cam something like cambam... and start to work..

when you get involved deeper in this cnc called chaos, then youll see more thing... and youll choose better..

cutting only 2D and 2.5 parts... cambam will do likely everything for you..
say it even makes 3d cuts..
for this price only artcam express makes these things.. everything behind these cost at least 600 more..

delcam has real camprogram beyond artcam what designed to cutting metal.. powermill, but that is in a price category like mastercam..

again, start to work and youll see better what program what capable for.. demos and videos don't showing traps..

and a last comment on these, funny but only cambam has the trochoidal toolpathing, what also called high speed machining.. when your mill engaged equally all the time...

[Hirudin]

I've said this a couple times recently, and I'll say it again: I do not envy anyone who is shopping for a CAM program.

This opinion of mine is based on the fact that every single one I've used has had glaring problems. I've been dealing with a bug in SolidCAM all day today. I'll be calling them Monday morning to see if they can offer me a fix. Since they haven't released an update for months I'm not exactly holding my breath. I sure am glad I have paid them thousands of dollars to be their beta tester. Yes, software requires time and effort to write. The thing is: many software companies somehow survive by writing software BEFORE selling it. This "maintenance" model they've created for themselves disincentivizes fixing bugs.