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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2014
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    23

    Boss Project & Questions

    Ran across a guy a few miles away from me with 3 BP Boss series CNC machines all apparently removed from a small shop several years ago. He got them intending to convert at least one to modern cnc operation but hasn't gotten around too it yet so he's selling 2 of the machines. Suppossdly they were in 'very good' condition when removed but have been stored outdoors partially covered for several years. All 3 are stepper motor units with tape readers, and all 3 have the conventional series 1 ram head, not the rigid ram. 2 of the 3 have air speed adjust & brake systems.

    My tentative plan is to get both, convert both to modern computer systems, sell 1 and hopefully cover my costs on the other. Got a few questions...

    1) What does the head/ram assembly weight and how much of a pain is it to remove from the base assembly? My tractor can lift ~2000 lb, and from what I've seen these are ~3000 machines. My thought was to remove the head/ram assembly since it looks like it's just 4 bolts and hopefully the remaining base unit would be light enough to lift off. I'm concerned about messing up alignment though - not worth making a whole bunch of extra work for myself.

    2) Can the air speed control be easily converted back to manual? Is there really much benifit to having it? Not planning to mess with it if it works, but if it doesn't I don't want to get stuck into a whole bunch of work to fix it if I can just get rid of it.

    3) I've seen some info that the tool holders on these are hard to find. How true is this? All 3 of these units had what looks like a quarter turn locking sleeve mechanism on the bottom of the spindle - didn't see any nuts or drawbars. What type of setup is this?

    4) It seems like the most common conversion is Gekcos but I also saw some info on a KL-11080 driver - any reason not use these? The price looks pretty close to the Geckos and I like the fact that these have a built in power supply - no messing around with a separate power supply.

    5) What is a reasonable sale price for a converted boss unit setup with a computer but without any tooling? Assuming that the base machine is in good shape and everything works. I'm looking for the 'what would you pay' price, not what top dollar might be for it. I know it's subjective, but I'd like to have at least some idea what a reasonable value is for these machines so I can decide if I can make this work or not.

    Thanks,
    ~John
    KL-11080

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    70

    Re: Boss Project & Questions

    I could use some parts if you do the retrofit.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    192

    Re: Boss Project & Questions

    I'm rebuilding a Boss 3, same config as the ones you're talking about. I'd hope a fully converted working machine to fetch 4 grand.

    Most take off the head from the ram, the 4 bolts on the front. The turret has a 4-spoke bracket thing that I think will fall to the ground if you take off the 4 vertical bolts on each side of the ram. I do not know how that part is held up when reassembling (but I've never had that off). I would not worry about alignment of any of these parts since they are made to be moved around, and you're going to retram the mill anyway. I guess the Ram is about 300# and the complete head assembly is around 700# - those are mere guesses.

    I found my mill needed a head rebuild - about $300 in parts to replace all drive bearings, pulley bushings, belts, etc. I also had to get spindle bearings. I would just be prepared for a head rebuild, and after having mine apart, I'm really glad to have taken it all apart, clean out the ballscrews and bearings that I'm re-using, etc...

    I believe most of these have Erickson #30 quick change tooling. Mine is goobered up, so I'm (desperately) looking for a new sleeve (the entire nut assembly or just the internal sleeve), which is hard to find and is pricey. Some of the BT30 toolholders will fit, but most of the flanges are a little too thick and would need a grind, but compatible toolhoders are available for about $70 each from one source I found.

    I'm using Geckos and they work fine, but the drivers that Boss5 on this forum mentioned (maybe the same KL-series drivers you ask about), I think would be preferred and simpler to work with, and it sounds like they would perform better.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2985

    Re: Boss Project & Questions

    I have a BOSS 5 series 1. It has been running with the original steppers and drives commanded by mach3 since 2005 (using the hillbilly BOB and his connections). Just last fall I got tired of tracking down stepper drive issues and put a G203V on the X axis. It works great. Y and Z still running on the bridgeport drives.

    I've got a rigid ram and have never taken the head off in one piece. The two times I've had it apart it was piece by piece. Some of the pieces are quite heavy but I muscled it all together by myself. When I moved mine, I bolted it to an oversized skid I made from 2x4's and loaded it on a trailer. To get it off I screwed a piece of plywood to the trailer ramps and pulled it off with my tractor, steadying it the other way with a rope wrapped around a tree.

    The air speed thing should be easy to convert but I'd be surprised if it doesn't work. The air solenoids might wear out but the motor and gears should be good to go. The only pain is when you don't have the compressor on and have to go turn it on just to change the speed on the mill. PITA when you are just wanting to drill a hole or something.

    The spindle is a "Quik-Change 30" made by Erickson. Toolholders (NMTB30) are readily available from Parlec and they are certified to work with the Erickson quick change. Not all NMTB30 holders will work with the erickson so be careful. Parlec : NMTB Taper

    Some info on the taper here: Machine Tool Shanks (Tapers)

    All the toolholders I have either came with the machine or have purchased from ebay.

    On the price, I regularly see the non converted machines in various conditions for between $1500 and $5000. Making it run on mach3 will add to the value but it's hard to say how much. I'd say the increase would at least be equal to the cost of the parts you put in it, maybe not much more, it's still a 30 year old machine.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    23

    Re: Boss Project & Questions

    Thanks.

    Found some good info on the tooling, looks like I can make that work without too much trouble.

    What made you decide the head needed work?

    Are wiring diagrams/manuals out there for these? I found a couple links to a site that seemed to have had them, but the site was down. Since it seems pretty common for the oil lines to get clogged up I was figuring on taking them all apart and cleaning them - how hard is this?

    My plan is to avoid taking anything apart I don't have to, at least on the same machine - I'm intending to convert it and make sure it works okay as well as fixing any obvious problems, but I don't think it's worth doing a full tear down/rebuild unless I see something that looks like it really needs it.

    What software would you recommend? I'd prefer to stay windows based, and would mainly want something that's fairly easy to use. Cheaper is better obviously, but not to the point of not getting the right software.

    Do you think $3500 would be a reasonable expectation for a converted working machine?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2985

    Re: Boss Project & Questions

    I rebuilt my head because the bearings were loose, the varidrive bushings were worn and the belt was in bad shape. This combination makes the head noisy and clunky. I noticed a big difference in the sound after. I also have to replace the AC bearings on my Z ballnut because they were worn out and had about .015" play in them.

    I cleaned all the oil lines and replaced all the metering units. You will likely want to replace your metering units as well. They get clogged up with crap and are difficult (mine were impossible) to clean.

    Mach3 is the software everyone uses with windows. $175 for a full license.

    $3500 sounds good if the machine is in decent shape.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    192

    Re: Boss Project & Questions

    Just about the same deal here. Once I hooked up a VFD and got the motor running, the head made more noise than I like, about as loud as a car tire on the highway. I was not even going to get into the spindle and was going to let it ride for later, but something got me interested in it so I figured I'd just clean out the bearings and repack. When I got it apart, the grease there was dried and separated, looked toasted, and the bearings were the wrong ones anyway! I'm also glad I had to break into the Z ball screw because it had issues over just being dirty and dried out. I was able to save that assembly from sure destruction if I had made the mistake and just run it that way. All the cleaning out the grime and grit and packing fresh grease where it belongs is likely to save costly repairs [shortly] down the road if not addressed.

    I feel that machines sitting outside for a few years should get a complete tear down, clean, replace rusted/broken parts, and packed with high quality grease and oil.

    I'm using Mach3 and I also have LinuxCNC (EMC2) on the multi-boot PC. I think Linux is preferred performance, but Mach3 is so popular and windows based...

    Cleaning the lines, the ports in the castings could be difficult to get them all cleaned. The lower end is next on the list, especially now after considering what condition the XY ball screws could be in...

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    23

    Re: Boss Project & Questions

    Where do you get the oil feed metering units/how expensive are they?

    How hard is the teardown/cleaning/rebuild process? What did the parts wind up costing? Any thoughts on where to get a good repair manual for these?

    What was the original point of the air speed control? Doesn't seem like it gets you much since cranking the speed handle on the manual units really isn't that hard.... I wouldn't think the time/effort savings in having a system where you twist a knob instead would be worth the additional cost/complexity unless you're radically changing speeds every 30 seconds. Does it interface into the CNC controls?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2985

    Re: Boss Project & Questions

    Info on metering units:

    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/bridge...ter-units.html
    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/bridge...nc-repair.html

    It's been so long I don't remember where I got mine. It was the place recommended by other guys here on cnczone. I think it was around $10 or so for each so $100-150 for all of the metering units.

    I can't comment on a normal knucklehead but my rigid ram is not too terrible to take apart. Maybe 1 hour to strip it down completely now that I know what I am doing. The rebuild kit for the head was about $200 from H&W Machine Repair.

    No idea why it was air powered. It was not, to my knowledge, integrated into the BOSS controls. Maybe it was implemented later and this was an incremental step toward automatic spindle control. There is no sensor to tell the control what the current speed is so there is no way it would know how to adjust it.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    23

    Re: Boss Project & Questions

    Well, I wound up getting all 3 of these - was going to get 2 and then his wife :convinced" him he may as well get rid of all 3 while we had the trailer & forklift....

    One is a boss 3, the other 2 are 4-6, not sure exactly what. Serial numbers are 156 (boss 3), 2742 & 3144 (IIRC) All 3 need some TLC but seem in pretty good condition. The boss 3 and one of the others got water into the z axis stepper but everything else looks good. The knee ways have the original scallop pattern intact. Vertical and x axis ways have surface rust but seem okay. Don't have a phase converter yet to put power to the spindles, but all 3 turned ok by hand, and all of the nod/tilt/ram functions work.

    All 3 of these have the hole through the spindle for a drawbar in addition to the quick change holder - from what I understand this is pretty rare, correct?

    My plan off the bat is to sell the 3 as a conversion candidate, then work on the other 2 - be good to get some money back and I don't want to get too over my head in projects. Anyone looking for a project?

    If anyone has an extras stepper please let me know. I need one for the 3 (square) and one of the later round style.

    ~John

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    192

    Re: Boss Project & Questions

    Now that you have several of these, and you want to sell one of them, they only bring a few hundred... Where are they located?

    If you end up parting one out, I might be interested in parts. I think SkyHawk will be selling off his motors when he upgrades.

    Is there any way to tell anything from the serial number 156?

    Three machines would be a thrill...

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    23

    Re: Boss Project & Questions

    I'm south of the bay area in central costal CA - Salinas/Santa Cruz/Monterrey area.

    Unless I find something seriously wrong with one I don't plan on parting any out - all 3 look worth converting.

    I recall seeing something at one point that you could tell year of manufacture and some such info off the serial but can't find it. Interesting that it's such a low number - not sure how many they made though.

    3 machines is overkill..... my yard is starting to look the remains of a machine shop and electrical shop exploding together... \

    Couple more questions now that I've gotten into this thing....:

    1) deleted - think I answered my own question....

    2) I contacted Brent at Hubbard CNC and he suggested using a simple BOB that he sells for $30.... will i regret using this? Other BOBs I've seen used (PDMX, etc) are closer to $150 and up... Does the more expensive BOB get me anything? I don't want to cause myself a bunch of headache down the road just to save a few bucks....

    3) Any recommendations on where to get new stepper belts? They seems like a standard off the shelf item, it's just finding the right source / part number.

    Thanks!

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2985

    Re: Boss Project & Questions

    2) A good BOB has optical isolation and is externally powered (makes sure you have enough power to drive all your outputs and keeps you and your computer safe if a live wire inadvertently crossed paths with a signal wire). Depending on your needs, you might also want one that has relay outputs, analog outputs, a charge pump, dedicated e-stop circuit, etc.

    The only BOB's I have used (2 or 3 now) are from Hillbilly here on the zone: Ashburn Industrial Repair
    Everybody has their favorite brand, just do your research to make sure you are getting what you need.

    3) Any industrial bearing/drive supplier should be able to help. The belts likely still have part numbers on them, if not just take them the belt and they can match it up. Every decent sized city has at least one. I think Motion Industries is one national supplier I am aware of. Should be one close by.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    192

    Re: Boss Project & Questions

    I bought the Z-axis belt from ebay. Cheap BOBs might be hit and miss. I'm using a cheap BOB.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    15362

    Re: Boss Project & Questions

    sdmuleman

    For Timing Belts, McMmaster Carr have them, they are the H series .5 pitch, the Boss 3 to 5 have a 1.1 drive, the Boss 6 is 2.1 so will have different belts

    You want the Breakout Board to be opto isolated, there are some cheap ones that are, you don't need everything the more expensive boards offer, one thing to think about, is PWM for the VFD spindle control, this can be an add on board, but it is best to have it all in one, if you can find a cheap board with it
    Mactec54

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    336

    Re: Boss Project & Questions

    I have a BOSS3 with the "knuckle head".

    Quote Originally Posted by sdmuleman View Post
    What software would you recommend?
    I found that MACH3 was BY FAR the easiest to set up and get support. I spent a week searching the net and asking questions in forums and EMC2 support was so bad I switched to MACH3 and had it running in a few hours. You can use MACH3 in "demo" mode (for free) if your G-Code is less than 500 lines.

    Quote Originally Posted by sdmuleman View Post
    The knee ways have the original scallop pattern intact.
    The Y axis ways are chromed, so they wouldn't rust when the other axes might.

    Quote Originally Posted by sdmuleman View Post
    I recall seeing something at one point that you could tell year of manufacture and some such info off the serial but can't find it
    I found that info a few years back on the website where I bought my manuals. But that web site is now gone. If you need a copy of the manual for a BOSS3, I guess I could copy the CD - they are in PDF format.

    Quote Originally Posted by sdmuleman View Post
    If anyone has an extras stepper please let me know. I need one for the 3 (square) and one of the later round style.
    All the stepper motors should be the same, it is the heat sink that is used that makes them look different. The BOSS3 use a square heat sink with the fins perpendicular to the motor shaft. Subsequent heat sinks are radial (parallel with the motor shaft). When I swap-out my stock steppers, I'll have no more use for them. I don't have a hard schedule as to when I'll be swapping them....

    Keep an eye on eBay, I've seen them there.
    "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupery (1900 - 1944)

  17. #17
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    Mar 2012
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    192

    Re: Boss Project & Questions

    HawkJET, you have actual Bridgeport CNC manual?

  18. #18
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    Mar 2009
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    336

    Re: Boss Project & Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by 1875 View Post
    HawkJET, you have actual Bridgeport CNC manual?
    Yes. I have both the BOSS3 Operations Manual and the BOSS3 Maintenance Manual. They are scans of the Bridgeport manuals on CD in PDF format.
    "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupery (1900 - 1944)

  19. #19
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    23

    Re: Boss Project & Questions

    If you can I'd be interested in a copy of both. Do you have a rough idea of when you plan of swapping your motors? I've seen them on ebay, but I'd rather not mess with ebay and support a forum member if I can.

    I worked out a way today to get ~72 VDC off the stock transformer without messing with the windings - I've got 2 of the 3 coils (what used to be the 3 phases) wired for 460 (both primary coils in series) but run on 230 which gives ~30VAC on the original 60VAC taps for those 2 coils. Then I have the 3rd coil wired for 230 (primary coils in parallel) and I'm using the 60VAC and 80VAC taps to get 20VAC, which is connected in series with the 30 off the other 2 coils to give a ~50 VAC. With it all hooked up I was getting ~72 VDC, so it should work well with Geckos hopefully.Kind of complicated to explain, but it's just a matter of putting jumpers on the transformer the right way. Hardest part is making sure all the polarities are right so it all works properly.

    On another note, how much effect does a digital stepper control have vs the older chopping type? I was looking at KL-9082 drivers since they're rated for higher current and voltage than geckos, but the sales rep I was talking to recommended using the KL-8070D instead, as this is digital and supposedly better. He says it's similar to a Geck 203 vs 201. My question though is if it matters that much. All things being equal I'd of course rather then better drivers, but having the extra voltage & current capability would be nice and I suspect with this large and old of a machine the more high tech controllers might not really get me much. Certainly don't see any need for 51,200 microsteps....

    The z belt on mine looks like a 300H100 and Y (likely also X) is a 240H100.

    Is there a way to remove the table without taking the ball screw apart? I read something about the balls being matched and in a certainly order for backlash control so I really don't want to mess around with them if I can help it - seems like too much chance of messing something up.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    23

    Re: Boss Project & Questions

    Also, how many folks have the computer mounted outside one of the electronics enclosures? I was looking at using a desktop rather than a laptop based and cost, features (not sure how hard it is to find a laptop with parallel port) and reliability. I also note that the Mach3 site says you need a dedicated video card and I think almost all laptops are integrated video.... Thing is I'm not sure how easy it's going to be to fit a desktop, even a small one into the electronics enclosure. I'm planning to use the existing rear enclosure, with the existing T1 & T2, main fuses & switch, so that takes up a fair amount of room. Add a VFD, stepper drivers & heatsink, etc and it seems like it might get tight. I'd rather not crowd everything together if I don't have to. The question is then where to put the PC - Seems like it would probably be okay as long as it's high and not too close to the table, but I'm still leery of having it out in the open. Thoughts?

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