[keen]

Hi Haasies

I am thinking of buying a basic Haas mini mill new for my small home based business. I make parts and prototypes mostly in aluminium, and some moldmaking etc in steel.

I just don't have the space for a full size VMC and cant justify a high price as a one man band.

I note the mini mill is very light and wonder how it would go in steel. I currently have a Tormach and manage to do steel moldmaking with that - although more polishing and finishing and manual machining is usually required than normal. I assume the mini mill would be a big step up? If I choose cutters well and take my time can I machine to fine tolerances and high surface finishes?

Also I note it is quite limited in Z height - but I don't plan to use rotary tables etc and if I go for the factory height upgrade I imagine I would have to use a part raiser block and so loose rigidity?

I would most appreciate your thoughts. Cheers, Keen.

[mactec54]

keen

Go for the Mini Mill 2 if you can, it is more rigid, & has 4" more in X, Y, Z than the Mini Mill, don't even consider the raiser/ spacer block for what you are doing, some will say they work well, but that is because they have them, the Mini Mill is ok for steel, There is 4" above the tool change height that you can use if you need more room,( a lot don't know about this extra 4") for the control the extra ram is good to have & the high speed look ahead helps some for smoothing out the machine movement

[Ydna]

I have a Tormach 770 and a Minimill (among others) but the Tormach is fairly new so I don't know all the ins and outs quite yet. Having said that, I'd say the Minimill would be quite a bit faster and have some more reliable hardware for things like the toolchanger and control system (among others). The spindle would also be something of an upgrade in terms of power, but possibly not RPM as that depends on which Tormach model you're currently running. You'd be limited to 6000-RPM but your steel cutting process might not need anything more than that depending on how you're doing things. For plastics and aluminum it's more noticeable since you always want more speed, but you probably wouldn't notice the bottleneck *as much* when cutting steels. Same for the amount of torque available. Whenever I have to run steel parts I like to use these machines since the lack of power isn't noticed very often. In fact I also have a converted bridgeport CNC which is sometimes more cost effective for cutting long-process alloy steel parts, and it only goes to 2000-RPM (lol)

Anyway, myself I think Tormachs are very nice for their price, even after you add some options on top. But a Minimill would be a nice reliability upgrade for sure.

[Geof]

I have a MiniMill, a SuperMiniMill and six or seven SuperMiniMills with the 4" z axis extension, so it is obvious which machine is my preference. The Z axis extension does add a few thousand onto the price and it is difficult to justify unless you have specific plans to have a fourth axis. But moving up to the SuperMiniMill with the 10,000 rpm spindle is well worth the extra dollars. Even though you might not use the extra rpm when machining steel the extra power makes it possible to take cuts in steel that are impractical with a standard MiniMill. I have several threads showing things I have done on my machines and how they can handle steel, you can find these if you go to my profile and find threads I have started.

[keen]

I have a Tormach 770 and a Minimill (among others) but the Tormach is fairly new so I don't know all the ins and outs quite yet. Having said that, I'd say the Minimill would be quite a bit faster and have some more reliable hardware for things like the toolchanger and control system (among others). The spindle would also be something of an upgrade in terms of power, but possibly not RPM as that depends on which Tormach model you're currently running. You'd be limited to 6000-RPM but your steel cutting process might not need anything more than that depending on how you're doing things. For plastics and aluminum it's more noticeable since you always want more speed, but you probably wouldn't notice the bottleneck *as much* when cutting steels. Same for the amount of torque available. Whenever I have to run steel parts I like to use these machines since the lack of power isn't noticed very often. In fact I also have a converted bridgeport CNC which is sometimes more cost effective for cutting long-process alloy steel parts, and it only goes to 2000-RPM (lol) Anyway, myself I think Tormachs are very nice for their price, even after you add some options on top. But a Minimill would be a nice reliability upgrade for sure.

Thanks for you reply Ydna. It is very interesting that you have a Mini mill and a Tormach. Re precision. For me this is a key point. My Tormach 1100 is set up very carefully and was more accurate than most others at the time on the Tormach forum. All the same it is not a high precison machine. I did a circle milling test (outside diameter) with a new 6mm carb cutter and set to cut 24 mm OD. That way I could measure the result via mic and dial indicator in a lathe. The best I could get was a total deviation of 0.025 mm or 0.001" . That is not quite accurate enough for some of my work. I wonder how your Tormach would do in the same test? I wonder if Tormach have improved their accuracy - if so maybe I could just buy another one?

But the limitations of the design, the dovetail turcite ways, the low grade ball thrust races, the medium to low grade ball screws, I cant quite see them getting over those limitations and getting better than the errors above.
So how does the mini mill compare accuracy wise? I imagine better machined castings, linear ways, higher grade ball screws and thrust races and better/more cast iron should allow 'real world' accuracy of within 0.01 mm or 0.0004 " ?

Please let me know your thoughts. Cheers. Keen

[keen]

keen

Go for the Mini Mill 2 if you can, it is more rigid, & has 4" more in X, Y, Z than the Mini Mill, don't even consider the raiser/ spacer block for what you are doing, some will say they work well, but that is because they have them, the Mini Mill is ok for steel, There is 4" above the tool change height that you can use if you need more room,( a lot don't know about this extra 4") for the control the extra ram is good to have & the high speed look ahead helps some for smoothing out the machine movement

Thanks for that mactec54. I would love the Mini Mill 2 - but the basic Mini Mill is already a squeeze - it has a quoted height of 2.592 m and my workshop is only 2.480 m - I am hoping the top is including the flexible power cable that can be shifted a little?

Your point on the extra 4 " of height. I am not quite sure what you mean. Are you saying that the Z max quoted from table to spindle nose of 356mm is at the tool change height and there is another 4" the head can life above this? IE 456 mm?

Do you have any thoughts on its accuracy and surface finish on 3D surfacing ?

Thanks for your help. Keen

[keen]

I have a MiniMill, a SuperMiniMill and six or seven SuperMiniMills with the 4" z axis extension, so it is obvious which machine is my preference. The Z axis extension does add a few thousand onto the price and it is difficult to justify unless you have specific plans to have a fourth axis. But moving up to the SuperMiniMill with the 10,000 rpm spindle is well worth the extra dollars. Even though you might not use the extra rpm when machining steel the extra power makes it possible to take cuts in steel that are impractical with a standard MiniMill. I have several threads showing things I have done on my machines and how they can handle steel, you can find these if you go to my profile and find threads I have started.

Thanks for that Geof. Wow you are the Mini Mill expert! I will study your threads. What are your thoughts on accuracy as per my above comments. EG do you think a circle can be cut to within 0.004 "of round? And with the best cutter, CAM programme and machine feed settings, a 3D surface cut final fairly slow pass with steps where the cutter paths link etc of no more than that error?

Any other comments most welcome. cheers . Keen

[keen]

Sorry I mean 0.0004" - (I usually work in metric).

[mactec54]

Your point on the extra 4 " of height. I am not quite sure what you mean. Are you saying that the Z max quoted from table to spindle nose of 356mm is at the tool change height and there is another 4" the head can life above this? IE 456 mm?

Yes that is correct

Do you have any thoughts on its accuracy and surface finish on 3D surfacing ?

It would be easy to achieve the ( .0004 ) you are looking for, I can hold ( .0002 ) & if you are careful with what you are machining you can get better than that, you have to chase the Z around when you want to hold ( .0002 ) on the thickness

Mini Mill is already a squeeze - it has a quoted height of 2.592 m and my workshop is only 2.480 m

It will fit under an opening of 87" or 2.209.8m without taking any thing off, this is with the machine off the pallet it is mounted on, you will need a forkliff with long forks 60" or 1.524m

[keen]

Thanks for that mactec54.

That is amazing that they quote a table to spindle nose of 356mm when it is actually 456mm ! I will ask the agent why they do this.

Very pleased to hear your comments on accuracy - that is a huge step up for me!

Re size. My doorway is only 2 meters high and 1.8 meters wide. I thought with the head right down it would be less than 2 meters high? Do you think something can be removed from the top ok?

Once inside the ceiling slopes between 2.32 and 2.49meters - (in the area I would like to place it about 2. 45) do you think the max height quoted of 2.565 includes the top cable that could be repositioned or something like that?

Cheers. Keen

[mactec54]

keen

Here is a photo of the Z axes right up, this shows you the clearance that you have if you need it, to clear some tall parts

I will check the height of the machine just to see how it will fit for you

[keen]

keen

Here is a photo of the Z axes right up, this shows you the clearance that you have if you need it, to clear some tall parts

I will check the height of the machine just to see how it will fit for you

Many thanks Mactec54 - most appreciate the photo - and just checking, that is a mini mill not a mini mill 2. This machine just keeps looking better!

Thanks in advance for your height checks. I have been reading threads on the subject and it is still not 100% clear if it will fit. I think shifting the cable out sideways or something will gain some. But can you look underneath the machine for me. Looks like I could reconfigure the adjustable feet and drop it down a bit - or is there a limitation on that due to coolant tank or chips tray etc?

Cheers. Keen

[mactec54]

keen

That is a Mini Mill, The one I measured has the minimum height for the feet, with the head right down it is 80" with the head right up it is 94" Plus the cable tube which is another 7", you can't really put the cable tube out to one side, when it is down the cable tube is just a little above the head, but nothing to worry about if you are moving it

When you have it in position you may have to have the head in your case go between the ceiling joists/rafters, if you don't have enough room for the head

[keen]

keen

That is a Mini Mill, The one I measured has the minimum height for the feet, with the head right down it is 80" with the head right up it is 94" Plus the cable tube which is another 7", you can't really put the cable tube out to one side, when it is down the cable tube is just a little above the head, but nothing to worry about if you are moving it

When you have it in position you may have to have the head in your case go between the ceiling joists/rafters, if you don't have enough room for the head

Many thanks for that mactec54 - you are a man of your word!

So it is 80" through a doorway - maybe 79" if I took off the feet and slid it on its base? - (that would just squeak under my doorway - but 80inch means cutting into the doorframe)

once inside - My heights that I measured and quoted before are between the rafters - 'open ceiling' type construction - about 96 inch...hmm....that's only 2 inches for the 7 inch cable tube. So it needs the full 7 inches when the head is fully up? When you say fully up that is when it is raised the to the max height - the 4 inch above the tool change position you talked of?

This could be a game changer for me - I note the Bridgeport GX480 is 91" right up.......the machine is twice the weight and more $....

(Sorry to be a pain) Keen.

[keen]

Hi again.

Just looking at the Haas website on this page -

http://int.haascnc.com/mt_spec1.asp?...=MINI_MILL_VMC

And if you select the machine dimensions tab - and look at the drawing bottom right, it show the heights at toolchange position 10" and max height 4 " higher... 14" .... huh?

keen

[mactec54]

Hi again.

Just looking at the Haas website on this page -

http://int.haascnc.com/mt_spec1.asp?...=MINI_MILL_VMC

And if you select the machine dimensions tab - and look at the drawing bottom right, it show the heights at toolchange position 10" and max height 4 " higher... 14" .... huh?

The machine Homes to the max height as I showed in the photo, that is just over 18" nose to the table

So the Table to Tool change height is 14" the spindle nose to Table is 4" leaving 10" to the Tool change height Plus the 4" above tool change height with a total as in the photo

It does not come with the feet on, sitting on the floor leveled with the feet on it measured 80", I think you need to lift your roof up some even just the area were you are going to have the machine 8' stud is really the minimum, that should not be to hard to do, seeing it is an open truss frame, if you only have 79" under the door frame, that to would be a little tight to get it in I think nothing below 82'' or you will have a problem getting it through, If you mod the door frame take it to at least 87" or more, is your workshop a Quin type building

Yes the GX480 is way taller than the MiniMill

What part of NZ are you

[keen]

The machine Homes to the max height as I showed in the photo, that is just over 18" nose to the table

So the Table to Tool change height is 14" the spindle nose to Table is 4" leaving 10" to the Tool change height Plus the 4" above tool change height with a total as in the photo

It does not come with the feet on, sitting on the floor leveled with the feet on it measured 80", I think you need to lift your roof up some even just the area were you are going to have the machine 8' stud is really the minimum, that should not be to hard to do, seeing it is an open truss frame, if you only have 79" under the door frame, that to would be a little tight to get it in I think nothing below 82'' or you will have a problem getting it through, If you mod the door frame take it to at least 87" or more, is your workshop a Quin type building

Yes the GX480 is way taller than the MiniMill

What part of NZ are you

Thanks Mactec54

No not a Quin type - a custom build to match an existing low structure - but if I have to I could increase the door frame height a little - about 4". That would then let 82.6 through. Or lean the machine over....or do some dismantling.....hmm....

The GX480 are actually lower! A bigger capacity and twice the weight but height down is 74" and right up only 91.5" - it actually makes a lot of sense dimension wise - but I like the Haas control and other points. Any thoughts ?

Keen

[mactec54]

keen

I did measured one of the GX series Bridgeport & it was higher than the Haas, but it could of been a different model, as I don't remember what model it was, but I though it was the 480, the measurement for the Haas I gave you was from the floor to the top of the head, this was mounted on the feet, I checked that number between the feet & the bottom of the machine, & that was 2" so 80" -2" =78" that would just squeeze in, put some 6mm flat steel bar down, & pull it in with a chain block, I would still lift your door frame up if it is not to big of a job

The control is very good on the Haas, in terms of easy to use, I would still say if you can do the extra cost of the GX480 to do it, if it has to be the Haas then it will do a good job for you as well, you don't need to get any of the extras, for the control at the time of purchase, If you want an extra, they will just give you a code to activate it, Like extended memory, rigid tapping, look-ahead, rigid tapping is not an extra on the GX480

[Steve Seebold]

A Haas Mini would be a great machine, but for that price, you can have 3 PCNC 1100's. You get 6 more inches of Z axis too. I used to own a Haas TM1, and it had 16 inches of Z axis.

My Tormach will do anything my Haas would do, it just takes a little longer.

I have learned techniques for pocket ruffing, profile and surface ruffing too.

I can remove stock almost as fast as with my PCNC as ou can with a Haas Mini.

If you think the Haas is the way to go, then I would seriously consider the TM2P with the 20 tool turret upgrade and Rigid Tapping.

[keen]

A Haas Mini would be a great machine, but for that price, you can have 3 PCNC 1100's. You get 6 more inches of Z axis too. I used to own a Haas TM1, and it had 16 inches of Z axis.

My Tormach will do anything my Haas would do, it just takes a little longer.

I have learned techniques for pocket ruffing, profile and surface ruffing too.

I can remove stock almost as fast as with my PCNC as ou can with a Haas Mini.

If you think the Haas is the way to go, then I would seriously consider the TM2P with the 20 tool turret upgrade and Rigid Tapping.

Hi Steve. Many thanks for you post. That was very timely and you make some good points.

I agree with you that the Tormach is very capable and amazing value. - I too do some quite advanced work on mine. For general small to medium jobbing, basic toolmaking and prototyping it is amazingly capable.

But for some work it is limited. For example larger precision 3D surfacing work - and high volume part production - I am not sure about a Tormach with a toolchanger.

I take your timely points on board, and maybe I should consider a second tormach. I think my decision should be centred around what type of work would I be best doing in 5 years time......

- where is that crystal ball!

Cheers, Keen.