[keen]

Another option - I might get a chance to pick up a new Hurco VM5i for a good price.......

So Haas Mini Mill....or Haas TM1.......or another Tormach....or a Bridgeport GX480.....or Hurco VM5I.........

The Mini Mill for multiple small part production? TM1 lower cost, one off jobs with more capacity? another Tormach for low cost Jobbing and prototyping? Bridgeport GX480 and Hurco VM5i , more expensive but more accurate and solid and can do all of the above?

I welcome your thoughts......

Keen

[cygnus x-1]

The toolroom mills are way slow compared to the minis (200IPM feeds instead of 600IPM). They also have no chip auger option and I don't think one would fit through your door anyway.

The Tormach stuff is nice but their tool changer system is not compatible with anything else, so in the future if you ever want to expand to bigger machines you will need to buy all new tool holders. Considering the cost of holders I would want something more standard.

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[mactec54]

keen

If the price is right for the Hurco VM5i, & you can get support in NZ for it, that would be your best machine, the GX480 is my pick, but the price is way more, so it gets back to the Haas or the Hurco for a good price

Sorry Steve the Tormach is a good machine,with a great support net work, but is not in the same playing field as the Haas Mini Mill, & should not even be considered as such

[keen]

The toolroom mills are way slow compared to the minis (200IPM feeds instead of 600IPM). They also have no chip auger option and I don't think one would fit through your door anyway.

The Tormach stuff is nice but their tool changer system is not compatible with anything else, so in the future if you ever want to expand to bigger machines you will need to buy all new tool holders. Considering the cost of holders I would want something more standard.

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Thanks cygnusx-1

Yes I agree the Tormach TTS system is a limiting factor, Limiting by compatibility, but also limited in strength - it just can't by design handle heavy work, a 3/4 R8 collet friction grip dual contact is a clever solution that is low cost and good for light work, but if you are doing medium or heavy work, and you need a toolchanger CNC - then maybe a change to 40 taper is needed.

Steve do you have a Tormach with tool changer?

[Steve Seebold]

I don't have the ATC on my machine. The ATC came available about 3 months after I bought it. Yes, I have to stay at the machine while it's running, but if I have a lot of parts to make, I'll make a program that will make several parts at a time. I think the most I have sone at one time is 20 pieces.

I have a 46 inch TV, the internet, email, and phone right next to my machine, AND, I'm supposed to be retired so I have nothing but time on my hands.

Unlike most startup businesses, I didn't buy my machine to make a lot of money. I bought so I could have something to do in my retirement. I have a couple of customers who keep me as busy as I want to be.

I call my business Mid Day Machining because I seldom start working before 11:00 AM and I try to be done by 6:00 PM. There are however days when I can't sleep and I'll get up and start around 6:00 AM and still be going at 9:00 PM. Those days don't happen very often.

I race remote control model boats as a hobby, and a lot of mornings I'll get up and go run some of them before I go to work.

[keen]

I don't have the ATC on my machine. The ATC came available about 3 months after I bought it. Yes, I have to stay at the machine while it's running, but if I have a lot of parts to make, I'll make a program that will make several parts at a time. I think the most I have sone at one time is 20 pieces.

I have a 46 inch TV, the internet, email, and phone right next to my machine, AND, I'm supposed to be retired so I have nothing but time on my hands.

Unlike most startup businesses, I didn't buy my machine to make a lot of money. I bought so I could have something to do in my retirement. I have a couple of customers who keep me as busy as I want to be.

I call my business Mid Day Machining because I seldom start working before 11:00 AM and I try to be done by 6:00 PM. There are however days when I can't sleep and I'll get up and start around 6:00 AM and still be going at 9:00 PM. Those days don't happen very often.

I race remote control model boats as a hobby, and a lot of mornings I'll get up and go run some of them before I go to work.

Thanks for that post Steve - it puts your pro Tormach point of view in perspective.

Cheers, Keen

[roundman]

(group)Great info on the Minis. I have noticed a lot of people have concluded they fit their needs well. I suppose for smaller shops buying their first CNC Haas Mini mill they would also purchase programming software which was less than the cost of say Mastercam. I know it has been discussed from time to time yet I wanted to ask people who are making these types of decisions about less expensive Haas mills what kind of programming software is the best for the money which would that be? Thanks in advance.

[keen]

(group)Great info on the Minis. I have noticed a lot of people have concluded they fit their needs well. I suppose for smaller shops buying their first CNC Haas Mini mill they would also purchase programming software which was less than the cost of say Mastercam. I know it has been discussed from time to time yet I wanted to ask people who are making these types of decisions about less expensive Haas mills what kind of programming software is the best for the money which would that be? Thanks in advance.

Hi roundman. I use Bobcadcam V25 and really like it - each version upgrade just gets better- but to be fair it is the only CAM programme I have properly tried.. We should restrain from dishing out advice from a shallow experience and knowledge base! The best reviews come from competent users of different software and can make real comparisons. Anyone out there?

[roundman]

So very true Keen. When I consider what I may wish to do in the future which was so well described by Steve I am just putting together in my own mind what those choices might be. That is the great thing about the forums is that we are able to learn and grow in understanding by enjoying the life experience we see. There are many different types of programming software on this site and so this means there is more than one successful options for the choices I may make. It means that even though a lot of shops around here use and invest in Mastercam is not the only way at all. It removes obstacles to my developing plan considering what I can accomplish. I do love the trade and do enjoy the work I have been accused of being conscious of making good quality parts when most would not be so concerned because I value workmanship. This is a forum of Craftsmen and I will learn something about myself and the great people who are involved in machining. If I learn something interesting each time I visit I think that is a plus. Any input is always appreciated guys.

Hi roundman. I use Bobcadcam V25 and really like it - each version upgrade just gets better- but to be fair it is the only CAM programme I have properly tried.. We should restrain from dishing out advice from a shallow experience and knowledge base! The best reviews come from competent users of different software and can make real comparisons. Anyone out there?

[Steve Seebold]

I use GibbsCam to program my PCNC 1100. I had Gibbs when I had my shop but when I sold it, the new owner wanted to use his seat of MattuhCam (Mastercam). With GibbsCam, I can do anything you can do with Mastercam, but with 30 to 40% fewer key strokes.

Now, let's talk about rapids. Yes, a Mini will move about 700 IPM, but 95% of your moves are going to be one inch or less. For those short moves, you're not going to save enough time to justify the cost difference between the Haas and the Tormach. If you're gonna run thousands of parts, then yeah ,you'll see a time savings. But if you're running 30 or 50 parts, no way.

If you really want a machine that moves fast, look at the Haas DT1. It has a 15,000 RPM spindle, rapids at 2,500 IPM, changes tools in .8 (that's "point" 8) seconds and will rigid tap at 5,000 RPM. It's a little bigger than the Mini, and it will cost you about another $10,000.00, but if you're going to make thousands of small parts, I don't think you can beat it.

I have always said, if you run a Haas the way it was designed to be run, they're a great machine. For the price, you can't beat them. If you want to compare them to a Mori Seiki, Mazak, Doosan or Kitimura, forget it. If you try to run a Haas the way you can run those machines, you'll destroy it. QUICKLY. The same goes for your Tormach.

When I had my Haas, I never ran bigger than a 1/2 inch end mill in it, (most of the time, I ran 3/8 or smaller) and I used to cut 718 Inconel and 6-4 Titanium all the time. I just decided that I would rather break a $45.00 end mill than screw up a $4,500.00 spindle.

[cygnus x-1]

That's mostly true about the rapids. As long as your tool paths are reasonably efficient and you aren't doing large quantity runs they aren't so important.

Having to stand by the machine to change tools though is a real drag. I run a TM-1 with umbrella changer and an old Bridgeport EZTrak with no changer. One of the factors I use to determine which machine to use for a given part is how many tools will be needed to make it. If it's more than 3-4 tools I'll probably use the Haas. If it has more than a few tapped holes definitely use the Haas. Certainly you can run without a changer, but the whole point of CNC is automation. Make the machine do the grunt work while you do something more productive, like programming the next part. Being interrupted every 5 minutes to change tools really slows things down.

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