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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Benchtop Machines > Build Thread - Sieg X2 CNC Conversion
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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
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    66

    Build Thread - Sieg X2 CNC Conversion

    Well I figured since I've had other topics asking questions etc, the proper thing to do would be to collate pics & info onto a proper build thread really.
    Might prove more useful potentially for someone else in future that way (as an example of how not to do things!!).

    I've had my X2 for many years now but always loved the idea of converting it. Recently I took the plunge so here is a bit of the story so far.

    The first thing I did really was to establish what electronics to buy. Budget is a big (small) constraint for me as I have very little spare and any 'spending' money for fun stuff can be sporadic at best.
    It means I have to go with cheap as while I agree with the sentiment of "Save up a bit more and get the better one - you'll be glad you did", I never know when I might get a few extra quid or whether it could be ages, thus I have to make do, and then potentially improve/upgrade in future.

    With that in mind I ordered a cheap kit from ebay china after some research.
    【Germany SHIP】3 Axis NEMA 23 Stepper Motor 435oz in Single Shaft 4LEADS CNC | eBay

    Shortly followed by a 230mm ballscrew (about £15), a 400mm ballscrew (about £25), 3 stepper brackets (£33), and 2 of 8mm x 10mm couplers (about £10).

    The Y axis was pretty easy to rough fit, following removal of some material as marked from the saddle:
    Attachment 239644

    Getting the X axis to fit on the other hand has been much harder.
    The ballnut now has been horribly brutalised and looks like this as a result:

    Attachment 239646

    But it's almost the right fit now.
    This is combined with a lot of grinding out of the saddle to help the ballnut sit low enough.

    Tonight's task was to see how the end of the new X ballscrew would need to be dealt with.
    The original leadscrew has a fair bit of length protruding from the end cap & thrust bearings (which I had to use a puller to remove!!).

    Unfortunately while the end of the new screw was the same 10mm diameter, this only went back half an inch or so then had a wider threaded section, before stepping to a 12mm diameter section. No use!

    Here's what I therefore had to do.

    Attachment 239648

    Turning the wider and threaded sections down to 10mm was not easy. I had to use the fixed steady but the proximity of the carriage to the steady meant that I had to put the cutting tool at a horrible angle with way more of it sticking out from the toolpost than I should have done. Obviously this resulted in loads of chatter etc, and a rough finish. Once I got it more or less right I then had to spend a while smoothing it by hand.

    The outcome however is that the X ballscrew now more or less fits through the end cap correctly and goes through the thrust bearings reasonably well.

    Attachment 239650

    With the X gib strip in place the ballscrew is a bit tight and I think has tension on it that needs addressing. I think I need to grind a bit more metal off somewhere, but not 100% sure exactly where, in order to allow it to more freely.

    One thing I'm not sure about though, is whether I should use a support bearing at the opposite end of the ballscrew to the stepper, ie this end here:

    Attachment 239652

    Any thoughts on this are welcome. I presume it's not 'necessary', but will it give much benefit if I get and fit something?

    Really enjoying this project now that I have some progress. Can't wait to get further.
    Thanks for all input so far from you guys. It's very much appreciated.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
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    124

    Re: Build Thread - Sieg X2 CNC Conversion

    I think I am not understanding something here. How are you planning on keeping the backlash down without using the threaded section of the ball screw? Is all the axial load going to be transferred to the motor, or are you just not showing that step yet?

    As far as the un supported end. I can only assume they are 16mm screws. The length you have hanging is not alot, and considering a 36v 4 amp power I can see you spinning them fast enough to have huge amounts of screw whip. My x screw is just a weee bit longer and seems to do fine.

    So back to the back lash topic. I gues at the prices you stated you did not order the ball screw fixed and bearing block?
    innovating the imitated
    http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLT0IPUIWKw2G8Wdb6c291t_hPqyaEXCFq

  3. #3
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    66

    Re: Build Thread - Sieg X2 CNC Conversion

    Erm, it rather sounds like I've overlooked something here (*gets worried*) as I'm not sure I understand re' the backlash being related to the threaded section that 'was' near the end of the ballscrew?

    I think the answer is yes, without any additional bearing supports the axial load will be on the motor as it's straight flexi coupling from the ballscrew to motor shaft, although the ballscrew runs through the (thrust) bearings in the end plate of the table.

    I'm worried now that I've missed some fundamental issue.....?

    Yes it's a 16mm 1605 ballscrew by the way.

  4. #4
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    Re: Build Thread - Sieg X2 CNC Conversion

    How would the threaded section near the end of the ballscrew have been used then (had I left it on)?

    It's too late now of course unless I get another ballscrew, but on the original X leadscrew it has just a smooth section on the end, with no thread. This passes through the end plate & thrust bearings, then has the hand wheel on the stub.

    The wider smooth section and threaded section on the ballscrew would not be able to fit through the end plate of the table without machining down like I had.

    I suppose there'll be some load on the stepper's bearings but this must depend on how well aligned I get it all presumably, and if I added an end support at the opposite end it would help?

    The stepper is effectively a direct replacement for the handwheel to all intents and purposes, as the rest of the X set up uses the same support (i.e. through the end plate, and into the nut - no additional bearing supports etc), so ought not to be a problem?

    Apologies if I've misunderstood what you meant. I'm not trying to be obtuse but may well have not taken something into consideration that I should have done!

  5. #5

    Re: Build Thread - Sieg X2 CNC Conversion

    Have a look at my conversion, you can see how the threaded ends of the ballscrews allow you to adjust the bearing load with jam nuts to take care of backlash.
    Hossmachine_Cnc Conversion
    Hoss
    http://www.hossmachine.info - Gosh, you've... really got some nice toys here. - Roy Batty -- http://www.g0704.com - http://www.bf20.com - http://www.g0602.com

  6. #6
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    Re: Build Thread - Sieg X2 CNC Conversion

    Ahh I think I understand now, thanks Hoss.

    I've looked at your site loads of times for inspiration and ideas. It's very helpful thanks.

    So am I right in thinking the backlash in this case is not like it would be with a lead screw (ie between screw & nut) but between the ball screw and the end plate?
    Does the coupler between motor & screw not resolve this for the most part? I know it flexes a bit but is that effectively the cause of it if there's no threaded section, or have I misunderstood here?

  7. #7

    Re: Build Thread - Sieg X2 CNC Conversion

    The coupler should only be for radial backlash not axial. The typical setup with the ballscrew and the endplate is to use a threaded section to tighten the bearings sandwitched on the endplate to take out backlash.
    The way the stock leadscrews worked was to use the threaded end to tighten the handle against the bearings but this doesn't leave room to attach a coupler.
    It won't work well relying on a coupler and the stepper motor to provide the axial load against the bearings.
    I've seen it done that way once on a little lathe but you can't adjust out the backlash and steppers bearings aren't meant to take that load.
    You have plenty of ballscrew there to thread a section and provide an area to attach a coupler, see my blueprints.
    Hoss
    http://www.hossmachine.info - Gosh, you've... really got some nice toys here. - Roy Batty -- http://www.g0704.com - http://www.bf20.com - http://www.g0602.com

  8. #8
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    Apr 2005
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    124

    Re: Build Thread - Sieg X2 CNC Conversion

    Well, first off then, the proper fixed bearing mount rides on the larger diameter flat area. They come with a jam nut that that forces the bearing against the the screw so it is not allowed to slide in/out along the length of the screw. The jam nut has a screw on the side of it to secure it so it is not able to rotate loose. This fixed end bearing carrier would then in some way be fixed or attached to the mill table so that all axial loads (loads along the length of the screw(the pulling and pushing)) are transferred directly to the table. The motor is then allowed to float and the screw will not pull or push on it. While you probably can't move it by hand, these motors have axial play, in that if you grab it hard enough you can pull and or pull the shaft in and out. Well at least the ones I am a costumed to seeing. Your solution may bee just to thread the section you have turned down to accept a "jam" nut to allow for this axial locking of the ball screw to the table. Please note here that I have not like searched the forums in many many years so I'm not sure how it typically done on these machines but I will try and get a vid posted of details of how I carried out this specific issues solution more clearly than I have done in the other videos I posted on my machine.
    innovating the imitated
    http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLT0IPUIWKw2G8Wdb6c291t_hPqyaEXCFq

  9. #9
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    Re: Build Thread - Sieg X2 CNC Conversion

    Thanks for the description guys - that all makes perfect sense of course now.
    Appreciate the explanation.

    Never even considered it in all honesty. It's something that would have quickly become apparent once in use though I suppose, in a not great way!

    Probably a dumb question but would a nyloc nut give sufficient fastness to stay in the right place for this (after I thread the section where it's needed)? Or does it need to be a nut with a grub/set screw through it?
    I will probably tap out the nut to take a grub screw I guess, to be on the safe side.

  10. #10

    Re: Build Thread - Sieg X2 CNC Conversion

    Using 2 thin jam nuts like I used is better, they won't damage the threads like the one with the setscrew and will hold better than a nyloc.
    Hoss
    http://www.hossmachine.info - Gosh, you've... really got some nice toys here. - Roy Batty -- http://www.g0704.com - http://www.bf20.com - http://www.g0602.com

  11. #11
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    Re: Build Thread - Sieg X2 CNC Conversion

    Doh!! Should have thought of that. Not doing very well today sorry!

  12. #12
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    Re: Build Thread - Sieg X2 CNC Conversion

    Bit of progress but also a bit of failure.

    I've failed completely to get a thread put on the ballscrew with a die unfortunately despite bevelling the end of the screw slightly to help ease it on.
    My lathe is too small to use the tailstock to help press the die on as I turn the chuck, drill press table doesn't go low enough to do it with that, and just cannot get it to start cutting by hand no matter what.
    I think part of the issue is that the horrible cheap dies I've got are not split ones, meaning there's no give at all to get them started cutting.

    I can't easily cut a thread on the lathe due to the length of the screw, the need for a fixed steady (can't fit the tailstock on), and the problem of getting the carriage in the right position without the steady interfering.

    Not great.

    That said, I've made a second delrin adaptor plate, which fits like a glove and allows the X stepper to mount. With that done, I thought I'd hook it up and try it despite not yet having a threaded section.
    It works but isn't too smooth. This is with the ballnut just loose and not secured in place:

    http://s26.photobucket.com/user/Cret...20a7e.mp4.html

    It's satisfying to know that about 2 weeks back I had a fully manual mill, and now I have 2 of the 3 axes functioning electronically at least at a fairly unrefined level.
    Onwards & upwards.

    I'm off to look for some reasonable dies....

  13. #13
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    Sep 2009
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    66

    Re: Build Thread - Sieg X2 CNC Conversion

    Here's the mounted X Stepper, attached tonight:




    And how the X ballscrew/nut sits when in place:


  14. #14
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  15. #15
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    Sep 2009
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    Re: Build Thread - Sieg X2 CNC Conversion

    A while since I've been able to make any progress but a couple of minor bits changed now.

    I bought a new set of taps & dies, so was able to thread the end of the X ballscrew and fit locknuts on. So that's a step in the right direction!

    On the Y axis though I'm not 100% sure how to proceed in all honesty and could do with some suggestions.
    I've got suitable half nuts (m12 fine or extra fine) to fit the existing thread on the ballscrew but the only part that supports or secures it in place currently is this original mount/bushing. As you can see there's only enough thread exposed to fit a single half nut. I might be able to drill & tap this to fit a set screw but it doesn't seem ideal. Then I'd have to build a mount to fit over this mount to attach the stepper. Not the best solution so I'm open to suggestions on how best to arrange the stepper attachment and holding of the ballscrew on Y.

    Thanks!
    Attachment 244504

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	6BA475B8-9342-4EAD-8E34-2356B13D0686_zps3qjgdw1m.jpg 
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ID:	244506

    I would be inclined to do away with this mount completely in order to have a nicer solution, but I'm not really sure about what form a replacement would need to be other than I'd want to include a bearing of some sort as the original mount is purely a bushing!

  16. #16

    Re: Build Thread - Sieg X2 CNC Conversion

    An idea here.
    Hossmachine_Cnc Conversion
    Hoss
    http://www.hossmachine.info - Gosh, you've... really got some nice toys here. - Roy Batty -- http://www.g0704.com - http://www.bf20.com - http://www.g0602.com

  17. #17
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    Re: Build Thread - Sieg X2 CNC Conversion

    Should have been my first port of call actually!! Doh.

    Thanks Hoss.

    So you have a 1" spacer with a recess on each side for a thrust bearing. I've ordered some thrust bearings to do the same although my ballscrew is 12mm at this point not 10mm, and the OD of the ones I need is 26mm!
    Not sure how I'm going to cleaning cut the 26mm recess for the bearings. I think what I'll have to do is mount a chunk of material in the lathe, and cut the recesses first. Fine for the first one, although when I flip it round to do the reverse I'm not sure how I'll align it perfectly since it won't be a round spacer and I don't have a 4 jaw chuck. Will have to think about that.

    Anyway, I can ponder on that while I wait for the thrust bearings to arrive.

  18. #18

    Re: Build Thread - Sieg X2 CNC Conversion

    I've made that part on a lathe too with a 4-jaw chuck, I finished boring the center hole thru too with the first pocket so I knew it was true, drilling wouldn't be accurate enough then indicated that center hole on the opposite side to ensure the pockets were concentric. I made a similar part for the g0704 but it used 26mm bearings instead of those little thrust bearings.
    Hoss
    http://www.hossmachine.info - Gosh, you've... really got some nice toys here. - Roy Batty -- http://www.g0704.com - http://www.bf20.com - http://www.g0602.com

  19. #19
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    Sep 2009
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    66

    Re: Build Thread - Sieg X2 CNC Conversion

    Update!

    I had to make a faceplate for my lathe to center the plastic stock:
    Attachment 245226

    Attachment 245228

    Click image for larger version. 

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Views:	4 
Size:	83.9 KB 
ID:	245230

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1167AEFE-F1E3-4357-917C-544F1EE63B0B_zpskeyeaqms.jpg 
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ID:	245232

    So I've been able to cut matching pockets in both side pieces of stock, and now need to make a center plate with a 12mm hole through it.

    The plates of the thrust bearings fit nicely and just enough space for them to turn freely. So far so good!

    One thing I'm uncertain of is the correct arrangement of the thrust bearing parts. To elaborate, each bearing has two plates with a bearing track, and the hole in each is a different diameter. One is a smaller hole and is a tight fit to the ballscrew shaft, whereas the other plate is a loose fit. Am I right in thinking the tight fitting plates go on the outside of the whole arrangement (ie the assembly of the spacer block, and both sets of bearings in situ on the ballscrew), and the loose fit ones go on the inside, effectively facing each other (albeit with a spacer layer between)?

    I hope that makes sense! I think it has to be this was because on one side a nut will be against this, and on the other side it is the beginning of the ballscrew thread. This means that if the loose plates were on the outside, snug against these parts there would be no point as they would not be free to turn, thus the 'fixed' plates go on the outer sides? I might be over thinking it all!

    Thanks

  20. #20
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    Re: Build Thread - Sieg X2 CNC Conversion

    Well, I did what I should have already and checked the bearings on the X axis. Like I suspected the wider hole bearing plate is on the inside faces of the overall 'sandwich' and the tight fitting ones are on the outside.

    So I've done that, and made a rough centre plate with a 12mm hold for the ballscrew to run through. Then I made holes for the mounting bolts to secure it to the mill frame.
    Fits together a treat and the ballscrew turns freely, even though these parts don't look pretty by anyone's standards. The plan is to make nicer parts once it's up and running of course.

    Attachment 245254

    So I'm pleased with this progress as it's getting close to having a proper working X & Y axis now, aside from adjustments to make sure it all moves freely once assembled and doesn't bind at all etc.

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