[Windscreen]

Yes, I am definitely getting one, despite not even having a stand built for my mill yet, much less having it CNC'ed.

I'm trying to decide between the 6" and the 8". The 8" carries a $100 penalty (+$50 cost, +$50 ship), and is gonna be a bugger to lift onto and off of the table. I just don't know if I need all the capacity, or if the 6" would do me.

-Steve

[waltpermenter]

acannell,

Did yours come with 0.47" keys like Utoole shows, or 0.55" keys like Tormach shows?

-Steve

seems the previous claim that

The tormach table is a relabled chinese table, theres no Tormach "re-engineering" in it at all.

is already proving untrue, unless a side by side comparison can be made between the 2 units such claims have no basis in reality. keep up the good work though, the cheap unit still has potential.
walt

[acannell]

seems the previous claim that is already proving untrue, unless a side by side comparison can be made between the 2 units such claims have no basis in reality. keep up the good work though, the cheap unit still has potential.
walt

LOL..the keys are little pieces that screw into the bottom. Thats like saying because the Tormach table has a motor attached to it it must not be the Chinese one. They look exactly the same. The castings are the same. The internal parts all look the same on the exploded view. Even the inside of the castings look the same. The paint on the tilt vernier is the same color. The label next to the dial is exactly the same graphic. Not one thing thats part of the table proper looks different except the lack of the TSK610 badge. Man you guys really have some emotional NEED for it not to be true dont you? LOLOLOL

[acannell]

Yes, I am definitely getting one, despite not even having a stand built for my mill yet, much less having it CNC'ed.

I'm trying to decide between the 6" and the 8". The 8" carries a $100 penalty (+$50 cost, +$50 ship), and is gonna be a bugger to lift onto and off of the table. I just don't know if I need all the capacity, or if the 6" would do me.

-Steve

Im no weakling and lifting the 75 lb table onto the mill bed is right at the edge of what I would consider safe for precision equipment in a machining environment.

Then again my mill is enclosed and space is tight. If you are talking about a knee mill with easy to get to bed, then it might be no more difficult than your typical 6" vise.

Remember you can put stuff bigger than 6" on the 6" table..(right? I dont think anythings in the way)

Are you going to try and CNC it?

[acannell]

can you tell which is which? lol the Tormach one has a motor

If you look in the Tormach manual you can see the table taken apart and it looks the same inside even.

Even the yellow internal paint is the same.

BTW all these pics are from google search, so if we are suddenly not allowed to post pics from google search just say so.

It is DEFINITELY the same table.

But what I dont get is why you care? Its got the exact same specifications as the Tormach table, same features, same adjustments, same everything. Its actually one of the first Chinese tools I've ever owned that I am actually impressed by. Any metal surface which touches another is clearly precision ground, and the flatness of the table both rotating and square to tilt couldnt even be measured by my tenths indicator. Even if it was a totally different table and not the Tormach related table, it would be a $1400 cheaper table but 100% as good. How come you people arent EXCITED by this instead of all hurt? GROSS

[Windscreen]

Im no weakling and lifting the 75 lb table onto the mill bed is right at the edge of what I would consider safe for precision equipment in a machining environment.

Then again my mill is enclosed and space is tight. If you are talking about a knee mill with easy to get to bed, then it might be no more difficult than your typical 6" vise.

Remember you can put stuff bigger than 6" on the 6" table..(right? I dont think anythings in the way)

Are you going to try and CNC it?

I do intend to CNC it at some point, if not just to prove to myself that my mill (Optimum BF46) doesn't have the accuracy to make a 5-axis part worth a damn. When someone tells me I can't do something, it often emboldens me to try to do it anyway...doesn't mean it always works out.

As for the keys comment, I'm sure Tormach makes a set of keys because the 0.55" fits their table better. That doesn't make it a re-engineered part. My table has 11/16" slots (18 mm, actually), so I'll just have to make a set to adapt the rotary table's slot to my slot width.

Looks like there is nothing in the way to hang a part off the edge of the table's face. The biggest consideration for me is whether or not I might need to put stock down the Morse Taper bore. In that case, the difference between a MT2 and MT3 might make a difference.

-Steve

[acannell]

I do intend to CNC it at some point, if not just to prove to myself that my mill (Optimum BF46) doesn't have the accuracy to make a 5-axis part worth a damn. When someone tells me I can't do something, it often emboldens me to try to do it anyway...doesn't mean it always works out.

As for the keys comment, I'm sure Tormach makes a set of keys because the 0.55" fits their table better. That doesn't make it a re-engineered part. My table has 11/16" slots (18 mm, actually), so I'll just have to make a set to adapt the rotary table's slot to my slot width.

Looks like there is nothing in the way to hang a part off the edge of the table's face. The biggest consideration for me is whether or not I might need to put stock down the Morse Taper bore. In that case, the difference between a MT2 and MT3 might make a difference.

-Steve

Sounds awesome!

Im probably not going to attempt to CNC the tilt because its quite a bit more complex to do than the table IMO, but I'm definitely going for the table rotation. Will you mill need a brushless or stepper motor?

[Windscreen]

The motion control system I'm building is run by a Dynomotion Kflop, which can use a mix of steppers and servos. I'm building the mill's controls with brushless DC.
Shameless self promotion: my build thread
We'll see after I get the mill up and running, and the learning involved in that, whether I go for stepper or servo. If it's a stepper, it will definitely have an encoder, though.

The only thing, at present, that would scare me from a servo is whether or not this table can take the heat that the speed of a servo would inevitably create in the worm drive's friction.

-Steve

[acannell]

The motion control system I'm building is run by a Dynomotion Kflop, which can use a mix of steppers and servos. I'm building the mill's controls with brushless DC.
Shameless self promotion: my build thread
We'll see after I get the mill up and running, and the learning involved in that, whether I go for stepper or servo. If it's a stepper, it will definitely have an encoder, though.

The only thing, at present, that would scare me from a servo is whether or not this table can take the heat that the speed of a servo would inevitably create in the worm drive's friction.

-Steve

Well, to answer your last question, I'd check out the Tormach user manual and see what they say about continuous operation. I actually have not looked that up..could be interesting. The link to the manual is a few posts back.

For my purposes, I'm probably going to keep the rpms down to no more than would be encountered by hand..something like 3rpm table speed.

What are you planning on using the 4th axis for? Positioning and/or simultaneous movement?

[Moggot]

It is DEFINITELY the same table.

I can't speak to the providence of the table you've gotten, however, I can offer an anecdote from my own work experience.

I worked for a company that produced injection molded parts in China. Our products were mercilessly ripped off and our Chinese competitors had no shame in doing so. Everything from our parts to our logo were just straight copied. It was aggravating, but there was also really nothing we could do about it. The Chinese government wasn't exactly helpful.

Somewhere along the line one of our molds got gouged. It left a visible though inconsequential bump in the part. We thought about having the mold repaired but the bump almost looked deliberate and it wasn't hurting anything so we let it keep running. Within 6 months we found a counterfeit product with the same blemish. They copied the totally pointless bump in the part because they either assumed we added it on purpose or were taking castings of our parts and never bothered to fix the flaw. There's no way a consumer could possibly have known the difference. There were differences, of course, in materials, in QA, in support etc, but nothing you'd notice at time of purchase. The competitors stuff was a lot cheaper, though.

Point is, Chinese counterfeiting has been elevated to a fine art. I no longer assume that appearances or even quality are any indication they're coming from the same supplier. Maybe the end result is you're getting a functionally identical part anyways, so who cares? I guess no one, but it's still an assumption that can bite you in the ass down the road.

Even if it was a totally different table and not the Tormach related table, it would be a $1400 cheaper table but 100% as good. How come you people arent EXCITED by this instead of all hurt? GROSS

I could grind my own 123 blocks and save money that way. But that'd probably be an awful idea because I'm running my shop to make money, not 'save' money. I don't think retrofitting this table with a motor would be worth my time. Between the research, purchasing, machining, hacking and troubleshooting I suspect I'd easily end up spending more hours on this then the $1400 is worth. That's time I could be spending on billed work or running down other jobs or, hell, spending time with my wife (I'm pretty sure I still have one...). The extra cost of the Tormach part buys me a solution I know will work, phone support, helps support a US based company and more then anything else buys me time.

You're trading time for money. If you've got time to burn then more power to you, but why are you surprised that not everyone is excited to jump through hoops in order to save some money?

[acannell]

You're trading time for money. If you've got time to burn then more power to you, but why are you surprised that not everyone is excited to jump through hoops in order to save some money?

You're time is so valuable you're on here posting about how this idea would waste too much of your time, hmm. Dont you have better things to do? I'm certainly not surprised by any of the dumb crap that gets said on this forum. 90% easily threatened "machinists" of all ages, 10% cool people. Thats the ratio on CNCZONE. Last I checked there were loads of DIY 4th axis CNC projects on this site, and I'm sure there are plenty of people involved in CNC machining who dropped $10k+ on a Tormach or other machine, but dont mind saving $1400 for a few hours of work on a fun project. Its a little painful to watch some of you guys try and create some kind of narrative that simultaneously proves that the chinese table is not the Tormach table, and also that this idea is a waste of time, so you can feel validated or whatever, but hey, I'm used to it on here. Just part of the show.

[jdclark]

This is too low a volume item for anyone to counterfeit. It's most likely exactly the same unit that Tormach adds the drives to. Tormach has a fairly captive and loyal market, and they make a good profit on their tools. If acannell is willing to invest in a dozen or so units, add the drive motors and then do some marketing, he could probably develop a decent business. However, as a one-off project he will save himself some money, but it won't have much impact on the folks at Tormach.

[acannell]

This is too low a volume item for anyone to counterfeit. It's most likely exactly the same unit that Tormach adds the drives to. Tormach has a fairly captive and loyal market, and they make a good profit on their tools. If acannell is willing to invest in a dozen or so units, add the drive motors and then do some marketing, he could probably develop a decent business. However, as a one-off project he will save himself some money, but it won't have much impact on the folks at Tormach.

Actually all I have to do is offer the bracket design and people can machine it themselves. Once I have it figured out with an appropriate motor I'll post up the bracket design so other people can make one, since apparently thats the HUGE technological time wasting challenge with this idea . The rest of the stuff is just off the shelf..you can get the couplers from mcmaster, and uh...screws. The bracket will almost certainly be designed for a standard NEMA 23 chassis, so you can pretty much pick whatever motor type you want. For me, it will be some used brushless off ebay, or possibly a stepper. For others, maybe they want to buy a brand new, exact motor Tormach uses (it was posted a few posts back).

This is very valuable and useful tool for anyone who wants a light duty 4th axis, not just Tormach users.

Now if we really wanted to go crazy, we'd CNC the tilt the as a 5th axis, but thats alot harder than the table, IMO.

[acannell]

Anyways, my mill uses an analog control signal with encoder feedback, and a PID algorithm, for positioning.

So I need a motor with an encoder, and some kind of drive for it that uses an analog signal.

The brushless amps my mill already has all work that way.

But it turns out that NEMA 23 stepper motor I have doesnt have an encoder.

However, I have a teeny NEMA 17 that does have an encoder! Lol!

So I could make a bracket for that and connect it up.

And from the looks of the datasheet, it can take an analog control signal. It has a built in driver.

So I might be in business with something to play around with until I find a more appropriate motor.

The NEMA 17 motor I have has a holding torque of a whopping 60 oz in...3.75 in lbs. Times 90 = 337.5 in lbs. Divided by 3 = 113 lbs at the edge of the table.

Hmm. That actually seems like it would still be useful for something. How can that be? This motor is TINY. Its 2.4" long not including the shaft. Maybe the size of a lime. I guess you get alot of torque with all that multiplication.

I suppose I could try hooking up just the motor to my mills electronics and see if I can get the mill to close the feedback loop with it as far as position. If so..NEMA 17 prototype bracket!!

[acannell]

tiny!

I'll have to make a little coupler somehow...the shaft sizes are very different.

[acannell]

oh my..just realized Tormach wasn't closed because it was too late when I called them..they were closed because its SUNDAY... time flies when you're having fun

[tmarks11]

I'll have to make a little coupler somehow...the shaft sizes are very different.

Most people just buy the couplers, since they are only about $5. You can get them to match different size shafts.. I have some on my shelf to match the 5mm shaft on a NEMA 17 motor to the 12 mm shaft of the project I am working now.

Dr CNC Stepper Motor Flexible Coupling Coupler 5x12mm D25L30 QC | eBay

[Windscreen]

Well, to answer your last question, I'd check out the Tormach user manual and see what they say about continuous operation. I actually have not looked that up..could be interesting.

What are you planning on using the 4th axis for? Positioning and/or simultaneous movement?

Even if they had a spec (which I doubt, but I didn't look), their stepper only turns the table at 5 RPM, hardly flying. My primary reason for the table is to spiral flute pistol barrels, so, simultaneous movement in X and A.

-Steve

[tmarks11]

The only thing, at present, that would scare me from a servo is whether or not this table can take the heat that the speed of a servo would inevitably create in the worm drive's friction

Just because it has a servo doesnt mean it rotates any more than if you did it with a stepper. Look, this isn't like a 54" table that you are running 700ipm G00 (servo) instead of 110 ipm (stepper). The most you will ever index this thing between cuts is 1 revolution. While you are cutting, the speed of rotation will be the same regardless if you are using stepper or servos.

The gearbox is oil filed, so the movement of the oil shoud help spread the heat. I don't see a real advantage to using servos unless the system you are hooking up to has servos, but I can't see that it will create any problems.

The gearbox on this is 72:1, IIRC. If you actually need faster continuous rotation an you probably shoud be looking for a direct drive table.

For fluting a barrel, you get maybe one helical rotation of that flute every 6"? it you were cutting the flute with a ball nose endmill at 20 ipm, than you need the table turning at least 2 rpm, which you could do with the worm drive.

[Moggot]

You're time is so valuable you're on here posting about how this idea would waste too much of your time, hmm. Dont you have better things to do?

It's the middle of the night. The mill makes an awful racket, and the rest of the household seems to like sleeping when it's dark out. Go figure.

Last I checked there were loads of DIY 4th axis CNC projects on this site, and I'm sure there are plenty of people involved in CNC machining who dropped $10k+ on a Tormach or other machine, but dont mind saving $1400 for a few hours of work on a fun project.

Sure. There are also a lot of people who think it's probably not a great use of their time, or particularly fun.

You asked:

How come you people arent EXCITED by this instead of all hurt?

I answered with, what a I thought, was a pretty reasonable explanation. Not everyone is going to be excited by your DIY solution, or offended that Tormach charged X more dollars for something then you can part together. Time really is a valuable resource. If you still don't get it, then, well, oh well. Carry on. It's not like anyone's stopping you.

Its a little painful to watch some of you guys try and create some kind of narrative that simultaneously proves that the chinese table is not the Tormach table, and also that this idea is a waste of time, so you can feel validated or whatever, but hey, I'm used to it on here. Just part of the show.

I'll tell you what: keep an honest accounting of the time you spend getting this to work out. Let me know what it ends up being and I'll let you know if it would have been worth my time. Whether it's the exact same table as the Tormach part is really only relevant to you; I couldn't really care less. All I'm trying to do is save you some potential headache when order parts from Tormach that don't quite fit because it may not actually be the same thing.