[daniellyall]

people who think this is a bad idea stop not everyone can afford to buy a table from tormach so what if acannell wont to do his own its his time not yours.
you are wasting your time and his with the troll comments stop wasting your time complaining about something that is done every day.
I Have done it my self, it in total took me 4 hours to convert a table.
also how do you think improvements get made to products

[Hirudin]

We can all agree that time and effort are valuable. Obviously the dollar-amount one person considers worthy of their time and effort may not match everyone else's.

Tormach is definitely straddling the line between professionals (who can't spare the time to tinker around) and hobbyists (who love to tinker around). Let's all do each-other a favor and TRY to remember this fact.

I'd be interested in seeing how quickly this project comes together. If you can get it finished in less than three weeks I'd say it's a success... I'm part of the hobbyist camp though, someone who spends his or her whole day making money on a Tormach probably doesn't have time to reinvent the wheel.

A bit of (unsolicited) advice....
1. I realize that it's only been hinted at so far, but in case anyone is considering it: I'd recommend against trying to use this conversion to make money. I hear Tormach is a bit litigious. Hiring a lawyer is a terrible way to save money.
[edit]I meant: I would suggest against selling converted rotary tables or conversion kits.[/edit]
2. I'd try not to focus too much on the price of Tormach's tilting rotary table. You're not making Tormach's rotary table, you're making a Tormach-compatible rotary table. There IS a difference. You need to compare your CNC rotary table against other non-branded rotary tables. I don't know what's out there, but if something similar sells for $1300 you need to think about whether the DIY approach is worth ~$600, not the ~$1400 premium of the Tormach rotary table.

[popspipes]

The rule of thumb from years back was to take the entire cost of the part and overhead and multiply that by three and thats what its sold for. I would say that Tormach's price is about right, as a business cant survive on a zero profit margin.

[tmarks11]

The rule of thumb from years back was to take the entire cost of the part and overhead and multiply that by three and thats what its sold for. I would say that Tormach's price is about right, as a business cant survive on a zero profit margin.

I think the type of work you are doing strongly changes the multiplier there.

If you are a manufacturing industry who buys raw materials, and sells a completed product, that might be true... although that is a pretty weak way to estimate costs, as the type of product you are building and man-hours involved can make that sharply vary.

If you are a value added retailer, who buys from a wholesaler, warehouses the product, and ships to the end user, than I would say that thumb rule is not applicable. It might have been true before Walmart, Costco, and Amazon cut profit margins to the bone, but now I would bet it is more like 1.3X (or even 0.95X if Walmart sees you as a competitor to put out of business).

If you are an importer with a small engineering staff to design new products, with a warehouse to house completed products and parts? I am pretty sure that Tormach is not getting anywhere close to 3X on their mills and lathes, but they are definitely making it in upgrades, accessories and spare parts. Of course, that is no different than the business model that has supported the automotive industry for years. It is amazing to me that you can order a mill or part from Tormach on Monday and get it on Friday, based upon how small of a business Tormach is. Compare to Precision Matthews, who gets a shipment to him every 3 months. You want a mill, you might have to wait.... a long while. Look at Grizzly, they also have had long restocking periods. Tormach is doing well because they are focusing on a very small line, most of which is mature and in the product sustainment phase.

That is why I bought a PCNC1100, after comparing it to the competition. I am pretty sure that Tormach will be around in 5 years, still supporting their products. Look at all the poor saps who bought from Syil and were unable to even get a machine that worked, or get any support other than poorly translated forum responses.

The point is, if you are making it for yourself, you can save money over the Tormach offering, as the time spent on it is in the nature of a hobby.

But if you are thinking of going into business, that is a whole different story, especially when you start adding up taxes and overhead. For every hour in the shop, you have to figure that you are doing at least two hours of non shop time: admin, ordering parts, shipping and receiving, phone support. The $434 "profit" that Tormach is making on a 6" rotary table would quickly disappear under those circumstances. In the case of the rotary table, the actually machining and assembly time is probably less than the time spent shipping and receiving (since it is such a simple conversion). I don't see myself as a warehouse clerk, so I don't think I will set up shop to compete against Tormach....

To really compete, you need to import it yourself. OW you are already paying someone else's 1.5X-2X margin on your "raw materials", sharply cutting into your top line on a business that isn't known for high margins to begin with. Speak Chinese? Have a business associate in China already? no, than forget it.

The other fly in the ointment is that Tormach has a great QC reputation. When you are buying cut-rate parts from a Chinese importer, your quality is going to vary wildly. ACannall might have lucked out with the table he bought. But I bet if he bought a pallet of 10 of these, that he would get at least 2 rejects. Hmm, prices are mounting. Prices are mounting even more if you don't discover the defect, and ship to a customer, and now have to pay shipping both ways to correct the problem (and shipping a 50-120# table isn't cheap). Now that $$$$ profit starts disappearing.

The other thing is that there are an infinite array of Chinese machinery that are built to a certain price point. The machine looks the same (as the casting was possibly done at the same foundry), but the devil is in the details. Bearings or bushings? You want pre-greased or pre-chip filled bearings with no grease? Rough off, center drilling or precise boring of where critical shafts are located. I suspect the price difference is not noticeable in the external appearance; and the difference will be seen eventually. Well cut, hardened gears? Adjustable backlash? Reasonable backlash? Leaks oil (ok, even the phase II and tormach tables do that). Buying no-name Chinese machinery on ebay is definitely a risk; I personally wouldn't buy a "cheap" rotary table that wasn't a Phase II, as they have establish a decent reputation. Maybe Grizzly's new "SouthBend" rotaries, they look like a decent offering as well.

Would I do it myself to save $424? Yes, in a heartbeat, since shop time is hobby time to me. Would I make conversions to sell. No way. Would I manufacture a motor mount adaptor to allow people to do phase II rotary table conversions? Well, you can already buy solid aluminum NEMA 23 motor mounts on ebay for $20 (look at sclark0617 storefront). They don't fit the shaft of the rotary table, but I bet if you made one that did and put in on ebay, you would immediately see copies. $20 isn't a lot of money for the amount of time and raw materials.

Attachment 253048

Here is a good webpage from someone who used to sell those conversion kits for the 4" table. Nice, step by step directions:

https://sites.google.com/site/geekba...conversion-kit

[compunerdy]

I am sure acannell will get butt hurt by this comment and consider me not a "cool" guy but..

Hey everyone look at how much you can save over buying Tormachs 4th axis (Like nobody else has ever googled 4th axis and discovered the same thing)

Okay.. now what size motor? What type of coupler? What type of driver? What type of.... Oh wait now why does Tormachs cost more again??

[acannell]

1. I realize that it's only been hinted at so far, but in case anyone is considering it: I'd recommend against trying to use this conversion to make money. I hear Tormach is a bit litigious. Hiring a lawyer is a terrible way to save money.

You realize that is verging on paranoid fantasy right? You are essentially saying, I cant buy a rotary table, modify it how I want, and use it for whatever I want, because Tormach relabels the same one and sells it as a 4th axis?

Out of all the things in this thread so far, I think that has to be the most ridiculous.

[acannell]

I think the type of work you are doing strongly changes the multiplier there.

If you are a manufacturing industry who buys raw materials, and sells a completed product, that might be true... although that is a pretty weak way to estimate costs, as the type of product you are building and man-hours involved can make that sharply vary.

If you are a value added retailer, who buys from a wholesaler, warehouses the product, and ships to the end user, than I would say that thumb rule is not applicable. It might have been true before Walmart, Costco, and Amazon cut profit margins to the bone, but now I would bet it is more like 1.3X (or even 0.95X if Walmart sees you as a competitor to put out of business).

If you are an importer with a small engineering staff to design new products, with a warehouse to house completed products and parts? I am pretty sure that Tormach is not getting anywhere close to 3X on their mills and lathes, but they are definitely making it in upgrades, accessories and spare parts. Of course, that is no different than the business model that has supported the automotive industry for years. It is amazing to me that you can order a mill or part from Tormach on Monday and get it on Friday, based upon how small of a business Tormach is. Compare to Precision Matthews, who gets a shipment to him every 3 months. You want a mill, you might have to wait.... a long while. Look at Grizzly, they also have had long restocking periods. Tormach is doing well because they are focusing on a very small line, most of which is mature and in the product sustainment phase.

That is why I bought a PCNC1100, after comparing it to the competition. I am pretty sure that Tormach will be around in 5 years, still supporting their products. Look at all the poor saps who bought from Syil and were unable to even get a machine that worked, or get any support other than poorly translated forum responses.

The point is, if you are making it for yourself, you can save money over the Tormach offering, as the time spent on it is in the nature of a hobby.

But if you are thinking of going into business, that is a whole different story, especially when you start adding up taxes and overhead. For every hour in the shop, you have to figure that you are doing at least two hours of non shop time: admin, ordering parts, shipping and receiving, phone support. The $434 "profit" that Tormach is making on a 6" rotary table would quickly disappear under those circumstances. In the case of the rotary table, the actually machining and assembly time is probably less than the time spent shipping and receiving (since it is such a simple conversion). I don't see myself as a warehouse clerk, so I don't think I will set up shop to compete against Tormach....

To really compete, you need to import it yourself. OW you are already paying someone else's 1.5X-2X margin on your "raw materials", sharply cutting into your top line on a business that isn't known for high margins to begin with. Speak Chinese? Have a business associate in China already? no, than forget it.

The other fly in the ointment is that Tormach has a great QC reputation. When you are buying cut-rate parts from a Chinese importer, your quality is going to vary wildly. ACannall might have lucked out with the table he bought. But I bet if he bought a pallet of 10 of these, that he would get at least 2 rejects. Hmm, prices are mounting. Prices are mounting even more if you don't discover the defect, and ship to a customer, and now have to pay shipping both ways to correct the problem (and shipping a 50-120# table isn't cheap). Now that $$$$ profit starts disappearing.

The other thing is that there are an infinite array of Chinese machinery that are built to a certain price point. The machine looks the same (as the casting was possibly done at the same foundry), but the devil is in the details. Bearings or bushings? You want pre-greased or pre-chip filled bearings with no grease? Rough off, center drilling or precise boring of where critical shafts are located. I suspect the price difference is not noticeable in the external appearance; and the difference will be seen eventually. Well cut, hardened gears? Adjustable backlash? Reasonable backlash? Leaks oil (ok, even the phase II and tormach tables do that). Buying no-name Chinese machinery on ebay is definitely a risk; I personally wouldn't buy a "cheap" rotary table that wasn't a Phase II, as they have establish a decent reputation. Maybe Grizzly's new "SouthBend" rotaries, they look like a decent offering as well.

Would I do it myself to save $424? Yes, in a heartbeat, since shop time is hobby time to me. Would I make conversions to sell. No way. Would I manufacture a motor mount adaptor to allow people to do phase II rotary table conversions? Well, you can already buy solid aluminum NEMA 23 motor mounts on ebay for $20 (look at sclark0617 storefront). They don't fit the shaft of the rotary table, but I bet if you made one that did and put in on ebay, you would immediately see copies. $20 isn't a lot of money for the amount of time and raw materials.

Attachment 253048

Here is a good webpage from someone who used to sell those conversion kits for the 4" table. Nice, step by step directions:

https://sites.google.com/site/geekba...conversion-kit

The most right-on-target post in here so far.

- - - Updated - - -

I am sure acannell will get butt hurt by this comment and consider me not a "cool" guy but..

Hey everyone look at how much you can save over buying Tormachs 4th axis (Like nobody else has ever googled 4th axis and discovered the same thing)

Okay.. now what size motor? What type of coupler? What type of driver? What type of.... Oh wait now why does Tormachs cost more again??

If you think picking out a motor, coupler, and driver is a huge undertaking maybe you should take up another skill set like stamp collecting or something.

[acannell]

Okay just got off the phone with Tormach. Very friendly and laid back customer support, quite a contrast from the typical hurry-up-and-get-you-off-the-phone and slightly annoyed support you run into so many other places.

They dont sell the bracket separate, pretty much just the coupler, motor, and possibly the driver. If you have a Tormach and want the driver separate, you'd probably need to call them and have them hunt it down for you.

So at this point the task at hand appears to be:

-design a bracket to mount a standard flange (NEMA 23, etc..) to the TSK160 eccentric sleeve 4 bolt pattern
-select a coupler (mcmaster/ebay)
-pick the motor of your choice (for Tormach users, probably a stepper with an encoder)
-pick the driver of your choice (for Tormach, probably something similar to the leadshine unit Tormach uses)

[compunerdy]

Just pointing out that maybe Tormach charges more because they did the R&D on everything that turns this into a CNC 4th axis and not just the 4th axis itself. I agree by the way that they could be a bit more competitive on some of these items.

I will now go back to my stamp collecting which I can afford to do because my Tormach purchased 4th axis makes me more money in a week than you will save converting your own.

P.S. I wonder how they can afford to pay for such good customer service??

[Windscreen]

FYI, I decided to go with an 8" table, and gave Utoole a call to see if freight shipping was possible to save on the $100 UPS quote. They told me they are currently out of 8" units, and more are due in next month.

-Steve

[compunerdy]

Tormach's 4th axis does not have a encoder on the stepper..

Here is the driver 32793 - Stepper Driver

Here is the 6" motor 32677 - Upgrade/Replacement Motor for 6" Rotary Tables

Here is the 8" motor 32379 - Replacement Stepper Motor, 8" Rotary Table

[SCzEngrgGroup]

tmarks11 - your mailbox is full....

[acannell]

Tormach's 4th axis does not have a encoder on the stepper..

Here is the driver 32793 - Stepper Driver

Here is the 6" motor 32677 - Upgrade/Replacement Motor for 6" Rotary Tables

Here is the 8" motor 32379 - Replacement Stepper Motor, 8" Rotary Table

WTF rilly? Wow so they run it open loop. Well that lowers the motor price for sure..this is just getting easier and easier

[acannell]

FYI, I decided to go with an 8" table, and gave Utoole a call to see if freight shipping was possible to save on the $100 UPS quote. They told me they are currently out of 8" units, and more are due in next month.

-Steve

aww man...

if you want to check elsewhere..the 6" table is a "TSK160"..perhaps the 8" is TSK180? or something? someone else probably sells it too

or just get the 6 inch!

[compunerdy]

stamp collector back with some more info for you...

I changed the motor on my 6" 4th axis before Tormach offered the upgraded version. The motor I used was from keling Tech part number KL23H2100-30-4A-IP65 which worked well for me with Tormach's driver.
http://www.automationtechnologiesinc...30-4A-IP65.pdf

[acannell]

Just pointing out that maybe Tormach charges more because they did the R&D on everything that turns this into a CNC 4th axis and not just the 4th axis itself. I agree by the way that they could be a bit more competitive on some of these items.

I will now go back to my stamp collecting which I can afford to do because my Tormach purchased 4th axis makes me more money in a week than you will save converting your own.

P.S. I wonder how they can afford to pay for such good customer service??

Its pretty much impossible Tormach did any R&D on the table besides the motor mounting. They are not going to be taking the table apart and regrinding worms or surfaces, only to end up with exactly the same specifications as the table has right from China.

[acannell]

Windscreen, just out of curiousity, how are you planning on lifting the 8" table onto the bed? Thats about 100lbs right? Are you some kind of monster?

[compunerdy]

So they did not decide on a driver? Cabling? Connectors? What size motor? Manuals? plus take into account warranty issues, phone support, etc

I am pretty sure nobody has a issue with you wanting to convert your inexpensive 4th axis on the cheap.. Its just your attitude towards Tormach and knocking them for the price difference while completely overlooking all of the aspects they put into it and must charge for. There are 0 reasons for you to have put this in Tormach's thread or called them out on the pricing.

[Windscreen]

If need be, if I had a cart next to the mill at about table height, I could muscle it on. I don't have any problems with my 6" machine vice, and this is only 30% more

Realistically, I'll probably put a cheap chain hoist on a short piece of rail near the mill, off to the side of the head. Travel the table over, set the rotary table down, travel table back, now with rotary table centered on the machine's table. I'm really tempted to buy the 6" now, but I think I will regret the limits that places on work holding for the size parts I may want to put on it.

-Steve

[acannell]

So they did not decide on a driver? Cabling? Connectors? What size motor? Manuals? plus take into account warranty issues, phone support, etc

I am pretty sure nobody has a issue with you wanting to convert your inexpensive 4th axis on the cheap.. Its just your attitude towards Tormach and knocking them for the price difference while completely overlooking all of the aspects they put into it and must charge for. There are 0 reasons for you to have put this in Tormach's thread or called them out on the pricing.

Thats silly, think about it. You yourself a few threads ago said you think their prices are a little infalted. So have other people in here. And how many other threads and posts in here do you think people may have mentioned they think their prices are too high?

And besides, what do you care what my attitude is or is not? Frankly, I think Tormach's products look fantastic and I would give them the benefit of the doubt on QC any day.

Listen to what you are saying..."driver? Cabling? Connectors? What size motor? Manuals?"

Where are you coming up with the idea that selecting a driver, cabling, connectors, and a motor, is some kind of significant effort? Why not throw "cardboard box" onto the same list? Or "printing the receipt" or how about "toilet paper for the bathroom at Tormach".

If you think that list took any significant amount of resources for Tormach, or would for anyone else, then I cant imagine how you are envisioning Tormach designed an entire CNC mill from scratch. That must have been in the works for centuries and cost billions of dollars by that logic.

Are you really saying that DIY 4th axis projects dont belong in the Tormach forum? Does that sound right to you?

b