[tminnig]

I am new to the forum, but I have a very urgent question. Hopefully a few of you have the time to help me out.

I am currently a Gibbs user, and have been for about 6 years. We bought a Mori Seiki NL lathe last year, and have since put two more on the floor. Gibbs has struggled to give us what we needed out of these machines (primarily post problems). Also, Gibbs has been somewhat weak as far as 3D milling and having any level of control over customizing and perfecting tool paths, IMO. The turning is also weak with not enough options to make for effective machining processes. We have a Mori NT on order and are nervous to try and program this machine with Gibbs. We are looking very seriously at Esprit and EdgeCAM to fulfill this need.

If we switch, we would like to switch all of our programming over to the same software, so that is also a concern. Some of the things we will need are:

Full 3 & 4-axis capability
4 & 5-axis positioning
Multiple spindles (lathes)
B, Y, and C-axis
5-axis simultaneous
Full mill/turn support
Great post processors that are easy to edit/configure
Full Machine Simulation with collision detection

We are a job shop that sees many different types of parts, we need a CAM package that is just as flexible. We also have an apprenticeship program, so the software needs to be something that we can eventually train in-house (at least how to edit and create simple toolpaths).

If any of you have comments as to how EdgeCAM can meet my needs, I would appreciate your feedback.

Thanks,

Travis

[CNCRim]

llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

[tminnig]

That sounds like a $25,000 mistake just waiting to happen. The trial part is fine, it's the error part I can't swallow. Some things I'm willing to learn from, this is something I am going to do everything in my power to avoid screwing up.

I have done as much with the trials as I can. I am looking for users with experience to share. I have seen a lot of posts asking about software, none of them spell out what they need the program to do, therefore no one can give good feedback as to anything other than personal preference. I have given the requirements of my needs so that someone can give me feedback as to whether or not EdgeCAM is capable of doing what I want.

[shotman]

Hello Travis,
I am an Application Engineer for Pathtrace (US), and can tell you that Edgecam, can do the types of machining you require. We have worked extensively with several machine tool companies and are currently developing software for 5x simultaneous in the Mill/Turn environment as well.

The code wizard, that is out of the box Edgecam, allows users to configure post processors based on "their" specific machines, and format accordingly. I would dare say that, there are post files that have been created, that would make a good "foundation" to start from.

If you care to get further information, I could possibly refer you to a reseller, in your area, forward a CD, and set up a demo!!

Vic

[fjd]

sounds like you have not kept Gibbs up todate.
Gibbs will sell you any post you want to buy and then costomize it to fit.
From what i understand you can even send programmers to there training
to learn how to build and edit your own post.

[CNCRim]

Travis
"The best way to learn is trial error." is only a signature, it is not a comment you don't have to take it personal.........

Edgecam is very powerful and I have no doubt It will do what you ask for. I haven't work with Edgecam on 5-axis countinuos, so I can't give too much info about it, but I sure you will like it. Edgecam does support all the specification you listed.
Esprit is one of my favorites, I found it is user friendly, eventhough there are don't like milling section because too much of learn curve. One of Esprit specialty is multitask mill/turn and the post is not hard to modify. I think it is one a package must has if you have a lot of mill/turn in your shop.

[tminnig]

newtexas, I see the error in my ways. Sorry for getting uptight about it.

Gibss up to date, hmmm. I think 8.0.12 is the latest version available for our NLO option. I upgraded from 8.0.9 yesterday. What comments did I make that make you think it is not up to date? Maybe I'm just missing something in V8. I do not have the MTM level 2 yet, nor do we have the 5-axis module yet.

Some specifics I have problems with from Gibbs:
-I have to pay for EVERY new post processor, then spend months trying to work back and forth with their one or two post developers to get the code perfected to my spec.'s. Most of this time is spent as an ongoing battle of wills, as the developers are trying to tell me what I do and don't want. I have 10 years programming experience, the other programmer I work with has 15, and the engineer has 17; we already know what we want out of our posts.
-I can't change posts myself without spending another $10K+ for ComPost and training, so I am at the mercy of the post department again.
-I can't trim and break, resulting in having to duplicate and sort geo. all the time to make things connect right. Not to mention having to connect in the proper order.
-The grooving functionality of the turning portion is just flat out poor. I hand edit nearly every groove path I make.
-Gibbs will not separate horizontal and vertical surfaces from abnormal ones, so it requires using several processes to surface and pocket certain types of part contours, a lot of CAM's can maintain a cusp where needed, a Z-step down the sides of walls, and a step-over across floors.
-Gibbs' machine sim is also an additional cost, and with it, at least what I have seen so far, you still don't have all the covers and sheet metal in the verify that you get with some of the other packages. This may seem unnecessary, but if you've looked at a Mori NT, I think you would agree that it would be nice. There are a lot of places where these things could get in the way of the tooling.

I don't want to sound like I'm just trying to bash on Gibbs. We have used them for a long time, and I actually think I am quite fast and efficient with this software. I just think we are moving beyond its strengths and are therefore interested in researching new products. This is a list of some of the weaknesses we see with Gibbs that we are hoping another system can remedy, not necessarily a statement that 'Gibbs sucks'. There are several other things I would like another CAM to be able to do better, but these are my biggest pet peeves.

As far as a reseller in the area, I am already in contact with one. I have a demo disc and have been through the sales presentations. I was really hoping to get some less biased comments. No offense intended, I just need to hear it from users, not salesmen.

[Mike Mattera]

Hi Vic, Welcome to the forum.

tminnig: Edgecam has been doing mulitaxis lathes for a while. Gibbs is just comming out with a MMT option now. Edgecam has been working with Mori specifically on the NT. There ia a machine demonstration video available and it have the machine modeled for simulation. Edgecam has user definable post with the system. It's called the Code Wizzard. Very Cool, Very Easy way to edit posts.

& Vic is not going to to give you the salesman song and dance. He's a guy who makes this stuff work for customers everyday. If Vic says it will do it... It Will.

Mike Mattera

[andycarter]

Having to pay Gibbs for every new post would also really pee me off.

I very much like the edgecam post processor writing tool (a.k.a. code wizard) it is powerful and you can make any mods yourself.

Since there are some edgecam reps watching this thread, I will also mention some enhancements that I would like to see incorporated:

1) Want an option to have a warning output in the NC file when a value is too bi for the specified format, currently it just goes to 9999...
2) Typing the programmer name, progid & description everytime you regenerate code is a bit of a pain, it would be nice to have these details remembered in the ppf file somehow.
3) Toolstore filters are not very smart - when it can't find the EXACT drill size tool it shows an empty window and prompts you to add a new tool. How about showing all tools instead? or very close matches? In some cases we have the tap drill size generated by SolidWorks Hole Wizard as a rounded inch value (0.6562" not 21/32")

[Mike Mattera]

Andy: I agree with point #2 - When you switch to Manufacture mode, the Jobs tab has the information your talking about. It should be possible to pass this information to the post. I've been meaning to look into that.

As for #3 - As beauitfully as the TStore, Kit Assistand and Jom Manager are integrated, there are a couple of things I'd like to see added.
1 - Automatic tool numbering option (the first tool you pick is T#1, the second is T#2... etc...).
2 - As you pointed out, Why cant it pick the closest match? If you could set a tolerance (find a tool within .0008" of the hole size) that would solve the problem.
3 - Filtering Tool Styles: Sometimes it shows several tool types at once. It would be nice if you could turn off all the styles at once and select then select one you want to be shown. An "All Off" button or "None". Rather than click each one off, one at a time.

[hatchd]

Travis,

Your mentioned that you are considering Esprit so I thought that I would give you my thoughts on that. We are using Esprit for all of our milling, turning and turn/mill machines. Our turn/mills include a Mazak Integrex (dual spindle and B-axis head) and a Mori Seiki ZT1500YB (dual spindles and dual turrets). D.P. Tech has successfully supplied us with post for both of these machines.

We bought Esprit and the Integrex at the same time and Esprit was supposed to come with a fully functioning post for the Integrex that would need only slight modification. This turned into a painful experience (that eventually worked out well) that was due to the fact that the we were unfamiliar with Esprit, unfamiliar with the Integrex and unfamiliar with the g-code for Mazaks Fusion 640MT pro control (twin spindle and B-axis were also both new to us). The post that we were supplied with probably worked on some flavor of Integrex machines but the posted output bombed in several areas on our control. In the end, D.P. sent a AE to our site and he was able to take care of most of the problems at that time. Other issues were taken care of later by email and it is now a pretty solid post.

I learned our lesson with that experience. When we bought the Mori, we bought the post for it from D.P. (again, fully functioning with only slight modification needed), but this time I arranged for a AE from D.P. and a AE from the Mori dealership to be on our site at the same time to get a part that I had programmed to run on our machine. Well, this time the post really did need only slight modification and we were up and running on that machine very quickly. I would suggest doing something similar if it is critical that you get a machine producing parts as quickly as possible.

I have made many modification to these post myself (mostly for simple to moderate fixes) and I have had D.P. make changes if it tool difficult for me. They have some very sharp AE's and I have found that they are usually quick and responsive to support their product.

One word of caution; if you do buy another CAM system, make sure that ANY agreements or promises made verbally are put into writing. This really goes with any purchase, but...

Good luck,

Daryl

[Jacktak]

Forget all about Edgecam. Edgecam is a middelrange Cam software, whit "all" your wises, you have to look for for a High-end cam software...

[J. Vitanza]

I was looking over the problems that you described in your message. I also do not agree with being strong-armed by Virtual Gibbs to get new posts. I will be purchasing 6-12 new machines over the next 12 months and I can't stand the fact I will have to pay the Northern Ohio sales rep. for each post needed. I have checked the EdgeCAM software and am quite impressed. I need however to have them lay cutter path on one of my in-house projects and not have to edit the program extensively like when I first introduced my comapany to Gibbs.

[Haydn]

Have a look at some of these videos to see edgecam capabilities.

http://www.camforce.com/Services/Downloads.htm

There are quite a few on 5 axis machining I think.