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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2006
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    202

    Exclamation Bridgeport Torq-Cut 2G-?????

    I'm looking at this machine to purchase and it comes with the 4th axis already installed. It's a 1998 model year and was wondering what others though of this machine. I'm working mostly in aluminum and run production of intake manifolds for motorcycles. the rotary table would be great for what I need. I currently have the Shopmaster Tri-power and I'm not at all happy with it.

    any suggestions or ideas on this machine as to quality, etc.

    thanks in advance
    Ben

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    3319
    A machine of that vintage should be powered by a PC based system with ISA interface cards. The heart of the system is the BMDC machine controller card.

    The same card and basic operating system (albeit specialized for the particular machine) was used in the VMC's (800's and 1000's), TorqCuts, Eztraks (2, 2.5 and 3D) , X2XT's (3D and 4D), Explorers, Ezpath lathes (3 models ) and Ezsurf surface grinders. The machine control program is running in a DOS 6.2 or 6.22 environment.

    If you are DOS and PC conversant, you can pretty much and readily service the PC side of the machine yourself. It uses garden variety hardware (good and bad depending on how 'clean' they kept the cabinet insides). The BMDC side does need a good tech to tune the servos every so often as it does NOT have autotune capabities - it is a mid 90's system afterall.

    I'm a fan of the basic control system. It is no frills and if it comes factory fit to run 4 axis, you should be in good shape.

    I'd be sure to have the machine demonstrate an ability to run under power and run in 4D to cut air before I'd buy it - just to make sure there are no surprises when you get it home.

    The machining quality is going to be a funtion of the wear in the machine. The controller is capable of easily holding tenths in accuracty and repeatability. The overall machine accuracy, however, is going to depend on whether or not the THE AXIS' DRIVES & SCREWS ARE IN GOOD SHAPE AND FREE OF WEAR AND EXCESSIVE SLOP. Naturally, servos that are tuned poorly won't hold squat for accuracy.

    Hope this helps

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    202

    Bridgeport interact 412 or newer

    NC,
    the Torq-Cut machine is 1998 and I'm also looking at a Interact 412 made in 1989, not 4 axis. the interact is $11K while the Torq-cut is $28K and the Interact has only 4000 hrs on the machine and was used as a spare. would it be smarter for me to get the 412 and then add the 4th axis later. the photos of the 412 show a very-very clean machine that looks to have been well taken care of. the difference of $17K goes a long way when money matters. Your opinion please.

    thanks
    Ben

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    3028
    The TC2 G means it has the DX32 control with a Control in a Box. It has the half size all in one industrial mother board. The G means that it has a geared head. Great for roughing steel, not really necessary for aluminum. All the drives and motors are YASKAWA ac type.
    As far as Bridgeports go, I have found this machine to be above average in uptime. There was a TC1,2,3, and 4 made. Size goes up with number.

    George
    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    3319
    How are you with electronics/electrical schematics and what sort of time frame are you working with???

    A 1989 machine is old enough to legally drink in some states and definitely "legacy" in nature. Compared to today, the technology is VERY dated. Retrofitting a 4th axis that is identical to the factory one that is/was installed will take time and money and lots of searching for what is probably hard to find/tired/used expensive or expensive new items.

    I don't know if the Interact is/was 4th axis capable but if it wasn't, you're talking major retrofit ($8-$12 for an Ajax bolt in PLUS 4th axis incremental upgrade).

    If the controller is 4th axis capable, you're still looking at time and money to add the amps, wiring, software and other stuff needed to retrofit it - if you can find the parts and, most important, a factory wiring diagram. NO 4th axis system I've seen is plug and play!!!! They do need wiring rework to affect the upgrade.

    Unless you can get a deal on the axis/drive, you're looking at $4-$7K for the indexer alone, new. Add the cost of an amp and support wiring/hardware and you're talking $500-$1K easily. When you add the cost of software and whatever else, the cost differential is closing VERY quickly -- and the 4th axis isn't even operational yet.

    Basically, it comes to this: Are you looking for a machine or a project????

    If the TorqCut is factory equipped with 4th axis, you essentially bring in the machine, have a good tech do a setup and tune on it, learn how to run it and then make parts.

    I went the DIY "I'll fix it/make it into what I want/need route". I still have cheap machines that are not fully operational (with a lot of time and money thrown at them) and I'm still outsourcing work.

    Worse yet, I have lost way more in jobs and profit than I saved by trying to DIY as opposed to buying what I wanted/needed and simply making parts and money.

    Hint about "looks"= A coat of well applied paint covers a multitude of sins. Some less reputable machine peddlers consider a repaint and fix it good enough for it to run as a "rebuild".

    If you're intent on the 412, find someone who KNOWS the machine. GO SEE IT. Nose around it. Pick up the skirt and check her underwear. Definitely, ask to see it under power if at all possible. For that matter, do the same for the TC.

    If you are bound and determined to have 4th axis capability, I'd bite the bullet and go for the TC based on what little I know from the post.

    The cost difference 'tween the 412 and the TC will EASILY get eaten up in lost time and expense and lost work trying to upgrade an older machine that might not even be worth the expense.

    I hope this helps.... Go see the machines. This will tell you much more than any discussion on a message board...

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    3028
    I was just on EBAY and noticed a TC2 with the FANUC 0M control on it. We had one at a show years ago, it sat in our wharehouse for a few years, we finally sold it for just about scrap price. It has been working flawlessly, but there is NO support for it. I cannot get ladder diagrams for it, nothing. Per FANUC, if the control dies, no one has the software to burn a new set of PROMs for it. There wre newer machines made in the same size with FANUC 21i controls, and these are current with support.
    George
    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    3319
    You'd think that with names like Fanuc and Bridgeport, support would be but a pnone call and a checkbook away.

    Sadly, that's not the case. Legacy stuff can be hard to get support for. We learned that with our Fanuc 5T' powered lathes.

    Got a deal on a "new" item (less than 50 hours operation) and two seasoned veterans of identical model/vintage that were part of the same batch. Wierd but real good find.

    Blah blah Fanuc controls, world class service, blah blah.

    Called them for prom-ladder info and/or replacment and got a "we never made that version of software". Yet they clearly have Fanuc P/N's on the prom chips. More discussion, still no support.

    Finally, found somebody who knew something and it turned into a 'send us yours and we'll copy it' for $4000 per board. Copy this.....

    With a bit of searching, we found a guy in Texas who could fix them, copy burn proms and get the machines back up and operational. I dunno if he can do ladder work but all I was looking for was to get the machines to run again and he did it.

    Thankfully, there are still a lot of BPT service folks out there. But hardware support pretty much dried up when BPT went bust. EMI provides DX32 hardware support - at a price.

    Yes, Hardinge bought the mill but they seem to have walked away from supporting any of the other machines that BPT made. Thus, you've got a great name machine that ran with the best in its day but now you are at the mercy of the aftermarket and/or the few good factory guys out there who can still offer service.

    At this point, after all I've been thru, I'd go for a fully operational albeit more expensive machine with a functional 4th axis (if I needed one) as opposed to retrofitting an older one to meet my needs/wants for my business.

    Then again, if it is a hobby, part of the fun is making do and bringing life to something that is/should be in a machine retirement community.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    3319
    FWIW: that following thread is very close to what you're looking at doing:

    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23800

    Please note there were absolutely NO replies even after several months of the post being made. Thus, if you go the Interact route, you simply might be buying into an orphan machine.

    NOTE: I'd suspect from my other experiences with Heidenhain equipment in my cam measuring machine, any service that needs to be purchased for any machine equipped with a Heidenhain anything will make EMI look inexpensive.

    Moreover, if anything needs to be fixed in the electronics, the Heidenhain stuff usually had to be sent back to Germany and you'd be down for WEEKS.

    Fore warned is fore armed.

    As is the case with ANY used equipment, caveat emptor.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
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    24216
    Quote Originally Posted by machintek View Post
    I was just on EBAY and noticed a TC2 with the FANUC 0M control on it. We had one at a show years ago, it sat in our wharehouse for a few years, we finally sold it for just about scrap price. It has been working flawlessly, but there is NO support for it. I cannot get ladder diagrams for it, nothing. Per FANUC, if the control dies, no one has the software to burn a new set of PROMs for it.
    Fanuc are hard to deal with as far as ladder is concerned, after all they don't write it, the OEM or retrofitter does.
    The 0 is still a 'current' control, I am pretty sure you can still order it, so you may have to get a retrofitter or third party with the programming unit, with this you can copy, print and develop ladder.
    Al.
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    24216
    Quote Originally Posted by NC Cams View Post
    Moreover, if anything needs to be fixed in the electronics, the Heidenhain stuff usually had to be sent back to Germany and you'd be down for WEEKS.
    .
    Actually Heidenhain has a service dept in both Canada & US. I have used them occasionally.
    Al.
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    202
    The exact machine I'm looking at is the Bridgeport TC-2G 4 azis(factory installed) with Heidenheim TNC-370 control. After reading the posts from NC, I really don't need the headaches trying to get the interact 412 machine right. My background is in electronics (20+ yrs.) so reading prints is not a problem. $28,000 is the real problem, yet I already have $14,000+ in oders to fill and I've just gotten started. Guess I have to talk to the bank and see what kind of interest rates I can get and payment terms. My full time jobs is maintaining commercial satellite systems for GM & Ford dealerships, so I can still make a pretty good living even without the CNC, but really enjoy the designing and milling part, plus providing a better quality and performance part than the OEM. I'll have to start looking for someone local that knows this Torq-Cut 2g. thanks for all the help guys and I let you know how it works out.
    Ben

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    3319
    TC-2G should have DX32 control, not the Heidenhein - see Machintek's prior post.

    The Interact is the one with the Heidenhein, right????

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    17

    I have used this machine but....

    I use this machine everyday at work and the machine is great but for one exception and this exception is extremely important because ours has just not started becoming a issue and this is what the issue is... The "y" axis way cover, it gets worn out over time and will get blocked with chips..... if special attention isnt taken to clean this off then the rubber gaskets on the telescopic waycover then the debis gets into the bed of the "y" axis, when you take the cover off the ball screw is underneath, the casting on the machine has only one small return hole to return coolant and debris back to the chip pan/guard. THIS HOLE IS REDICULOUSLY SMALL AND GETS BLOCKED ALL OF THE TIME CAUSING COOLANT TO LEAK ONTO THE FLOOR. We have to clean this out all of the time...... sometimes when the machine is running the sections of the telescopic way cover seperates when you are running a job that has a cycle time of 45 minuites, this can really make or break you. another thing that is a problem is the greaing in the tool changer, when the tool changer moves in toward the quill, if the counter arm or counterbalance arm behind the tool changer is out of alighnment ( one small setscrew on top of another to help retain it) it will rip off one of the teeth in the small gearbox atached to the front of the tool changer motor.... you can only get to this from the top of the machine so if you have a low ceiling, you are going to have a problem. we have had our machine for the past 7 years or so and the machine is great as far as quality but it is not very easy to fix when it breaks, the gearbox for the tool changer is a total drag to find. another thing about the machine that will become a problem for it is on the 4th axis rotatry table....... if the rotatry happens to be a "troyke" rotarty table there is a gear and a belt that controls its rotation on the fornt cover of it........ the gears inside are going to be all rusty..... the problem is that the rust kills the belt and the next thing you know your "z" axis is trying to stuff your part with your endmill and scrap your part. the control (DX32) rocks i think it is great .... we run jobs on it all of the time using the "set user codinate system feature" which sets g54 , g55, g56, g57, g58, g59 so you can run a ton of parts all at the same time...... but other wise on a scale of 1-10 the machine is a definite 7 which puts it in the medeocre class. 10 would be a hass vf1 or vf2 if you have more questions my email is [email protected]

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    17
    INvest in getting a wash gun for this machine..... it is a nightmare to clean also invest in a short handled transfer shovel, you can get one at HD for cheap for the chips because it sucks trying to get the chips out.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    3319
    JTREE83: if the "rusty gear" can be readily removed, why not do so and have it chrome plated?

    If you pickle the steel gear with muriatic acid (do it outside) and then neutralize with baking soda, you should be able to get it cleaned up without affecting the surface finish which might affect belt life. Top off with flash chrome of 0.0003" to 0.0005" and this might end the corrosion issues for you.

    We did some stuff like this on our grinder (which uses water based coolant and rusting is a BIG issue on any grinder). and we solved a lot of problems with widgets and brackets rusting and corroding. Painted areas got powder coated in lieu of paint that they REALLY hold up well now - outlasts ANY paint we tried. Short term cost was higher BUT considering that they sandblased and prepped too, it was cheap all things considered to powder coat.

    What amazes me is that, for the cost of 4th axis, why the OEM didn't spend the extra $5 or $10 so to fortify their equipment with little touches like chrome plate or powder coat.

    When you pay mid to high 4 digit dollars for a servo motor and gear box, you'd think they'd provide that quality of finish that they're surely charging you for. The cost would more than be saved on the first service call and/or long term value of the equipment.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    17
    i eventualy got my gears chrome plated i forgot to mention. you made a very good point about manufacturers spending a little bit more to get the part to last longer.. i never thought of power coating.. that is a really good idea considering the coolant oil i use isnt very nice to the machines pain job lol. i akso forgot to mention on that gear box, when you open it up it is full of the foulest smelling grease you can imagine. smells like cow dung. and you will probably find a gear tooth down inside of it too.

  17. #17
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    Dec 2005
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    3319
    Sounds like the grease and the coolant are incompatible.

    There are literally hundreds of greases and additives for them. Yet, they either ABSORB water or DISPERSE water.

    The water absorbant greases hold moisture in suspension where the anti-rust agents they are fortified with can keep it from attacking gear box. Such greases will often take on a "rusty appearance" after time and once contaminated with water.

    Even so, you'll find that they can only hold off the rusting so long. After time, the water will still attack the device and then damage can become massive. This is why maintenance regreasing is not a bad idea.

    Water dispersing greases literally coat the part and prevent the water from touching/affecting the iron/steel. However, if the grease does not get fully dispersed on the entire 'innards' of the device, the water/coolant can attack the unprotected areas. Or in can get immulsified into the grease leaving in milky or in some other gucko state. No matter what, the water won't lube well and deteriouration will occur due to lubrication break-down.

    Once rusting/corrosion starts, deteriouration proceeds in what should not be an unexpected fashion as contaminated grease really doesn't lubricate or protect stuff very well. The affects of lube contaminated with coolant has already been cited.

    Many greases don't always smell that enticing when new. Contaminated greases, especially those contaminated with rancid coolant can be downright nasty. One could expect the lubrication properties of contaminated greases are much less than optimum.

    You'd think that machine tool makers would learn and do more about sealing their devices a bit better than they do. After all, it should not be a surprise that they just might be working in a wet, gritty, unhospitable environment sooner or later.

    If car makers can get transmissions and rear ends to live without leaking or allowing water inclusion for hundreds of thousands of miles in far worse/contaminated environments, you'd think that the machine tool makers just might take a hint - it is not like machine tool products are not used in/around the automotive industy.

    If find any oversight on the part of machine tool makers with regard to their inability to adequately seal gearboxes to be outright irresponsible.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    90
    Just a new input even if this does not bring mutch to the discussion :P

    I bought a 1997 TorquCut 22 w DX32 control a year ago, previous owner got it new and only made some prototype couple times a year. This machine was in NEW condition. I worked on Mazka's and Haas machines for the last 6 years and I consider this machine as being the same quality as Hass up to now.

    I was so satisfied with this machine that I got a Bridgeport Romi PowerPath 15 lathe about 3 months ago, 1997 with DX32 also. Low hours with no trace of big crash as we see often with lathes. I was told by Bart at EMI (he's a former Bpt engeneer) there was only like 52 lathe like these made back then. Body made by Romi in Brazil, integration added in the US a BPT shops. The structure of this machine is build really tough! build a lot stronger than most big name machine I inspected. This lathe work really great keeping close tolerances. I had some work to do to put it back in good shape since previous owner had almost no maintenace done to it... It was all worth it. I'm still having some problem understanding some things in the control but I'll get used to it with time. I found the DX32 easier to work with on the Torq-Cut 22 but the interface is mutch nicer on the lathe then on the machining center :P

    I had no problem up to now with both of them, I know the time will come when they'll break down and have hard time find the parts but I know there is a couple of great place out in the US to get parts and support, EMI and BPTPARTS.com and some of them... I've started my own small machine shop for about a year now and I enjoy working with those machine, so I'll do my best to keep them running for a long time.

    I looked at the Interact at first before getting the TC22 and it just does not worth the investment due to a lot of factor but the biggest being the control IMO.

    JTREE83, thanks for giving out the issues of the TC. I'll look for these things I had the coolant leaks also :P what a PITA when the shop is all clean and you see that coolant coming from underneat the VMC...

    see you later guys :P

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