[Winks]

[dertsap]

You're right jonny. You let us all know when you achieve legendary status.

legend in his own mind maybe !
This is a posting from a real big talk who wants to aggressively tell tradesmen how it is !
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/joes_c...ml#post1233951

[handlewanker]

Yeah Jonno, if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

One thing you will come to realise when you mix it with the guys, and that is.... if you come across as a superbum, that is how you get treated.

I notice that you have a huge opinion of yourself, IE, comparing yourself with others you have become vain and bitter, attempting to equal the guys who are making it work etc.

Most if not all, of your posts consist of whining that you are the down guy, everyone is out to rob you, only you know the score, nobody has the answer you so despertely seek because only you can see between the lines......well maybe that's misinterpreting a situation in my book.

Loosen up, listen to others, even the dull and ignorant, they too have their story.

So far all you have done is put peoples' backs up with your superior attitude.

The thread is about how much does an average machinist make, but I forgot you are super average......WRONG THREAD.
Ian.

[diyengineer]

UNION Machinists @ Boeing are getting paid 40+ hour, plus benefits, pension, 401K.. There are jobs out there!

As far as the feud between billy and johnny, simmer down guys. We are all on the same side.

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

Like I said, TROLL

Dick Z

[DAVEHAUN]

20.00 an hour + profit sharing. 'course we haven't had much of a profit for a couple of years now.

[WA Toolman]

I'm retired now, but the only problem I had with Boeing was the annual bonus. The problem I had was "What do I do with all this money?"

- - - Updated - - -

I'm retired now, but the only problem I had with Boeing was the annual bonus. The problem I had was "What do I do with all this money?"

[Sally600]

You're right jonny. I don't know you --- nor does this dimwitted old fool want to.

[vmax549]

There really is NO average salary for a CNC machinist it all depends on conditions of your workplace and its location.

(;-) TP

[limacchina]

As a benefit of the large population, chinese machinest used to get much less than $20/hr, however it's going up recent years a result of inflation.

[handlewanker]

Hi, the Chinese worker population relies on the World economy being affluent and capable of absorbing all their output, but as the economies fluctuate around the World it directly impacts on the Chinese flow of goods.

Big may be beautiful in parts of the World, but it also means the bigger you get the harder the ground at the bottom.

If the Chinese experience a 1930's type depression where the job prospects dry up due to non sales of their output.......nobody who works for a living will get paid......and $20 will then be a poor man's rich man dream.

In the real World you can blame the aspect of competition that only makes you cut your quality down to the bare minimum, and workers' wages are usually top of the list for cost cutting.
Ian.

[hanermo]

Ian .. I think your heart is in the right place, but..
A chinese skilled metalworker, today, might make 600-900 -(1200) $ month.
== 6$/hr.

Engineer, all over.
1000-3000.

900$/month is a decent salary in china.
You can buy a house and feed 4 kids.

In mexico, our workers, over 200+ of them, were all (generally) engineers.
We paid about 2000€´/month.
This is an excellent salary, there, and our engineers were very well paid and happy.
We also paid lots of benefits - to make eveyone stay.

20+ years, no-one ever left.
Im slightly "light" on details- on purpose..

Mexican engineer 2000€ == chinese engineer == 900-1200 == spanish one at 2500 €.
All are good.
All work hard, and do well, as they are in the top 1/10 salary/skills of their profession.

A finnish engineer might get 4000 €.
Sometimes, not seldom, its worth it.

Ie most finnish engineers produce excellent bang/buck - and many benefits not immediately seem.
For finnish you can sub scandinavian/swiss (german).

A chinese or african worker is mostly an excellent one, in skilled trades and up.
Lots of experience.
Management is responsible.

Hi, the Chinese worker population relies on the World economy being affluent and capable of absorbing all their output, but as the economies fluctuate around the World it directly impacts on the Chinese flow of goods.
If the Chinese experience a 1930's type depression where the job prospects dry up due to non sales of their output.......nobody who works for a living will get paid......and $20 will then be a poor man's rich man dream.

[Zenji]

My last CNC job paid $25per/hr when i had the skills, i've lost track of all the latest software and controls as i'm now working in breakdown maintenance nightshift.

I enjoyed cnc milling so immensely, but after whipping a 2 inch bar 1meter long on a cnc lathe at 2500rpm i lost my nerve for it.

BTW, I'm taking home $950 as a breakdown fitter, I do miss the zen of machining a nice alloy billet into shiny precision.

[FastFarmer]

The value of a machinist is decreasing, and will continue to decrease. But I think the reasons given here are not the real reasons.

To begin with, the whole idea of cnc is to automate the machining process. The more we all automate our home cncs with tool changers, bar feeders, automatic probes, etc, the cooler and smarter we all think we are in the garage! But CNC is about one thing - removing people from the process. Reality is a machinist today is often little more than a stock loader.

Is China making things cheaper a reason for lack of machining and manufacturing in this country? NO!!! China is a result.

Someone here said blame the Government... well it's not really the Government - it's the western people. People who are employees demand high pay, education, safety, and a pleasant environment where smokers are not welcome. Meanwhile people who are customers demand cheap product that is delivered instantaneously and seem to all take pride in having their lawyer on speed dial. (Because somehow in todays world when you make something into a touchable solid, then all responsibility apparently lies with you).

In every industry over the last generation, the answer to dealing with people either as employees or customers has been technology.

So if your like me who draws up and then CAMs my 3D object only to then sit infront of the lathe or mill for hours and watch it magically appear in amazement, just remember it's not China, the economy, Malcom Turdbull or your neighbours dog... CNC technology is why machinists and manufacturing has died in this country... and it's people just like you and me that made it happen.... because CNC is cool man!!!!

[handlewanker]

Hi....you are completely on the button......CNC is all about automation but it can also be a method of deskilling the work to employ cheaper labour.

Previously it was capstan and turret lathes where the tools were all preset by a setter and an operator just turned the handles ad finitum............go to cam autos and the operator is completely eliminated...... it has to be that way......production relies on saving the last split second for a million cycles......if you don't save that second, someone else with a better set-up will beat you to the market.

Having been down that path but as a tradesman rather than an operator, and finally finishing the career path as a time and motion study person, I know what saving a second on a cycle means when the production is in the hundreds of thousands.

I'm new to CNC, having only ever worked manual machines all my life, but I wowed at the prospect of programing a machine to work a complex path and make an item that would have been too tedious to do manually.........and if I make a balls up half way through and scrap the part, a touch of the button makes a new part in a few seconds........manually it would take hours.

The real reason many take to CNC is simply because it has a wow factor that is completely missing with manual machines..........pushing a button to make a part is the end result of several hours drawing and converting the plan to CAM and/or hand writing the code.........it can be about making money, but also just for the fun of it.........mostly the fun part is a non profit exercise that soaks up money disguised as a hobby.
Ian.

[FastFarmer]

Tradesman to a time motion study person... Well, that journey says it all...

I just finished reading "Rise of the Robots" by Martian Ford and apart from his misplaced health care rant, his book makes you wonder where all this technology and pursuit of efficiency is actually taking us...

[FastFarmer]

I think machinists definitely should receive the $2 tax...
https://youtu.be/IVs0Yr3GbRk

[hanermo]

It is actually the opposite.
Today, cnc machinists are much better paid.

They are, usually, industrial engineers with degrees.

But what happens is - one 5000$ / month cnc operator (with maybe a chip-shoveler or guy who does packing/shipping/deburring/cleaning etc) replaces 10-20 manual machinists at 1800$/mo..
Much less total jobs.
Much better paid jobs.

Jobs do not get de-skilled, they get up-skilled.
A good, like any new industrial engineer - they all learn on both manual machines and cnc, and theory, and automation, - is paid double, because any error or slowness on his part causes 10.000$ / day or more in lost-opportunity profits.

All employers want max profit, and as a good new engineer, can bring 100k+ or more in profits, per month, and slowness or errors reduce this, easily, 10-20k per month, it is economically vastly better to pay 2k$ more, and look for guys who want the jobs, wants to do well, wants to bring profits to the company.
Well-paid modern cnc operators = machinists actually want the company to make money.

Every modern cnc guy wants to help the company succeed, does not want extra hours/overtime.
They want more efficiency and better tooling.
They are proactive and company-oriented.
Because if they do bring the company profits, and they do not get rewarded, the next company xyz down the road will be happy to employ them at n+1000€/month.

I used to employ 15 machinist/engineers/millwrights, just a few years ago.
All were degreed engineers.
All were, as I said, gung-ho and focused on company success.
All were very well paid.

It is much better to pay 2k more/mo, when the company gets 20k more/mo as a result.
All smart owners and managers know this, and all smart managers implement this.
Smart owners/managers are now about 5-10-20%, rising fast, as they out-compete everyone else.

Hi....you are completely on the button......CNC is all about automation but it can also be a method of deskilling the work to employ cheaper labour.

[FastFarmer]

It is actually the opposite.
But what happens is - one 5000$ / month cnc operator (with maybe a chip-shoveler or guy who does packing/shipping/deburring/cleaning etc) replaces 10-20 manual machinists at 1800$/mo..
Much less total jobs.
Much better paid jobs.

Jobs do not get de-skilled, they get up-skilled.

That is exactly the main issue facing the world; its why the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Its why you have executives on obscene salaries while the average unskilled guy gets what equates to his loose change. It's why people who don't have the ability to be multi skilled and multi talented are literally F'd in a modern world. It's why despite Trumps efforts to bring manufacturing back to America, real job creation will not and cannot happen.

I've seen this change in agriculture where we once employed 5 full time people, to now where output quality is SO much better and more than quadruple of back then. However, the number of employees has been reduced to 1, and in time he will go too. As a farmer who drives around in his fancy fast car only to pass through country towns that used to be alive but are now full of empty buildings with communities that are depressed and don't even have enough kids to keep the local football team going, I think the pursuit of "wanting profits for the company" by utilising technology through up skilled employees is simply destroying humanity (not climate change!!).

[handlewanker]

LOL......and if you continue to blame the "want it now and much cheaper people", all you have to do is re-employ all those people who worked the land and go broke when you can't compete against other producers who have seen the light......it's people who make the rules and people who pay the price.

The spiral for cheaper at any cost is called competition.......it's considered good to have competition, but all that does is make you the cheapest on the block and the ones that can't compete fall by the wayside.....you can't have too many cooks in the kitchen.......some have to wither away and die......the bigger you get with that scenario the harder you fall when the cold wind blows.

There is no agreement amongst producers as to how much they can charge......profit making and survival are in the same boat, and if profit making is at the expense of less or cheaper labour cost..........do I have to paint the picture any clearer?

If everyone who went into business producing the same goods charged the same price for the product the market would be saturated........making the item cheaper in order to make more profit is an exercise and a balancing act where people are in the middle.
Ian.