[RCaffin]

Apocryphal story:
A guy was going through Poland after WW II and saw this really great line of shiny leather shoes at an extremely low price. He bought a big consignment from the mfr and distributed them around Western Europe at a huge profit. But a few weeks later the returns started to pour in: the shoes were falling to pieces in any wet weather. So he went back to Poland to take it out on the mfr. The mfr was a bit puzzled that the shoes were getting wet: you don't use coffin shoes outdoors after all! YGWYPF

Cheers
Roger

[handlewanker]

LOL.....I almost wet meself..........coffin shoes.....LOL.
Ian.

[RCaffin]

I forgot to explain: they were polished cardboard - no leather. But maybe that was obvious.

Cheers
Roger

[handlewanker]

Ian, I think your view is out of date, old world, and full of propaganda.

Last time I was in China, we travelled from Shanghai to a garden village 600kms away that took 1.5 hours in a train that did over 500kph. The village itself was a nightmare. No english, no food we could relate too, no toilets, but the air was cold and crisp, and the people were friendly and non threatening. We felt a little unsafe and scared, but not too bad.

Living standards in the village were much less than in the big city, and the people were poor, but lets quickly compare that to Australia.

The fastest train we have does a top speed of 160kph and even then it's only for about 5 minutes because we have very little infrastructure that can support it. China infrastructure everywhere across the country is simply amazing. Australia is fully dependant on digging big holes in the ground and shipping dirt with no value add... and yet you criticise another country for engaging in simplistic agriculture? I would ask you to seriously review who's acting simplistically.

Maybe you should get your grey nomad caravan and go to somewhere like Port Headland? First just check out how much gob smacking dirt is going out on ships each day, and then go have a look behind the hospital. Get a cab and ask to go there. You think Australia doesn't have poor people or people living in the stone age? Australia has more than its share of people living poorly... and they are everywhere.

It's actually funny you don't think China produce quality. They have more than quality... they just don't sell it to the West, because the West demand cheap. If you go shopping for cnc in China, you can buy the best quality produced locally - they just don't export that. So just to be clear, it's not China that is cheap, it's the western countries who are all chasing efficiency and productivity... the things that you promote as progress.

There is one very true thing I can say about China that I cant say about Australia. Never have I been a tourist in China and been called a c***t, racist f**k, d***head, w**ker, been spat on, had beer poured on me be by drunkards, been truely scared for my families safety, or seen overly aggressive people approach me and say "what the f**k you looking at?

Sigh,,,,,,,,China and Australia are poles apart, both in their thinking and people value.....we don't and wouldn't live like the Chinese do, so any comparison is purely out of proportion.........fast trains don't make a country it's just a means of getting from A to B quickly........if we went to a form of air travel as the main form of people moving, as opposed to ground travel, that halved the travel time it would be totally irrelevant..........exchange the two scenarios?......not bleedin' likely.

Having seen movies and docos on Chinese and other Far East food markets and the types of food considered "normal" to their diets, I can not imagine wanting to do a travel thing in the Far East quarter......ever.

My opinion also is, you can make it cheap and fast or slow and good, but you can't make it good and fast......this is one reason why you only get cheap goods in volume as exports but not the more expensive stuff that takes more time and care to produce, and we are quite picky when it comes to expensive goods.........cheap crap is another story.....buy it.... break it...... chuck it......we no can fixee.
Ian.

[whimsical]

Having seen movies and docos on Chinese and other Far East food markets and the types of food considered "normal" to their diets, I can not imagine wanting to do a travel thing in the Far East quarter......ever.

My opinion also is, you can make it cheap and fast or slow and good, but you can't make it good and fast......this is one reason why you only get cheap goods in volume as exports but not the more expensive stuff that takes more time and care to produce, and we are quite picky when it comes to expensive goods.........cheap crap is another story.....buy it.... break it...... chuck it......we no can fixee.
Ian.

Sorry Handle but that is the funniest thing i have read for a long time

You need to turn your prejudice off and your taste buds on. I travel all over asia for the food and if you try it there is many wonderful tastes to experience.
Your last comment seems very out of step with the fact that we are on a forum devoted to CNC which is oriented to fast and good.

Thanks for the morning chuckle
Mike

[RCaffin]

a forum devoted to CNC which is oriented to fast and good.
I'm all for the 'fast and good' bit.

I have yet to see 'fast and good and cheap'.

Cheers
Roger

[whimsical]

Fast good and cheap was not in the original statement, but many things are a huge amount cheaper now CNC is mature. MAny things now exist that would not have been practical nor possible before. The chinese produce a lot of those items not just junk.
I see the Chinese as similar to the Japanese after the war and they are catching up fast, nearly there, while we in Aus are going backwards just as fast.

[RCaffin]

I see the Chinese as similar to the Japanese after the war
An unfortunate analogy, as you might be right.
I can remember cheap Japanese tinplate toys; now I drive a Toyota Prado.
I would ask what is our gov't doing about this, except that I know what they are doing.

Cheers
Roger

[FastFarmer]

I see the Chinese as similar to the Japanese after the war and they are catching up fast, nearly there, while we in Aus are going backwards just as fast.

Haha! Australia isn't going backwards... it's always been backwards! From the time the first fleet landed it's never in it's history been able to stand on its own two feet. Australia has always been a country dependant on other nations to bring investment, goods, and technology. When you travel the world you realise how "backwards" Australia really is. How what we have been taught in schools is nothing but propaganda and racism.

When Australia tries to stand on its own two feet and lead the world (like they like to think of themselves) with grand ideas like NBN, the country falls so short of the mark it's that is totally embarrassing.

Apart from banking, agriculture, and mining, every business sector in this country is totally dominated by foreign companies. Just look at CNC and engineering. I'm not sure people realise that if companies like Cisco, Siemens, Rio Tinto, Ford, etc put curfews on Australia we would be more than you know what, and yet if Australian companies put curfews on the USA, China, France, UK, etc, no one would even notice.

Politicians know all this. It's why we are building out of date diesel submarines. They know the only hope for Australia to achieve independence in the world is to have mass immigration. They cling onto rubbish and meaningless USA allegiances formed years ago in the pacific because it's the only safety line we have. They promote tourism, mining, foreign education, and relaxed lifestyle because that's only value we can offer the world. But truth is nothing has changed in 100+ years. We're on the bottom of the globe and we ain't moving....

[handlewanker]

Hmmmm......no politics please...........OZ is paradise compared to some dumps I've lived in and/or visited around the World.

The thread is about how much a machinist makes.....by that I mean a CNC one as manual machining does not pay anymore....production wise that is.
Ian.

[FastFarmer]

I don't think anyones discussed politics or said Australia isn't a good place to live. I think what several people have said is that it's becoming a harder place to live and there is little place left here for the guy with skilled hands. My view is that it has always been like this.

Yes, the topic is how much does a machinist makes, but this thread has moved into more "is there a future for a machinist in Australia?". A discussion that is still relevant to the topic.

[RCaffin]

this thread has moved into more "is there a future for a machinist in Australia?". A discussion that is still relevant to the topic.
Better clarify that a bit, and distinguish between CNC machinist and manual machinist.
America is seeing a resurgence of 'onshoring' - bringing back manufacturing to the USA. But that is not generating huge numbers of American jobs: instead these new plants are investing in automation in a big way. If Australian manufacturing ever happens, it won't be manual machining.

Cheers
Roger

[FastFarmer]

Better clarify that a bit, and distinguish between CNC machinist and manual machinist.
America is seeing a resurgence of 'onshoring' - bringing back manufacturing to the USA. But that is not generating huge numbers of American jobs: instead these new plants are investing in automation in a big way. If Australian manufacturing ever happens, it won't be manual machining.

Who am I to know and his is just my view -
1. Trump has NO chance of turning America around. If manufacturing does come back to the land of America, it will be totally subsidised, automated and full of machines that don't require people.
2. Manufacturing cant happen in Australia, it's that simple. Australia is the most regulated, controlled, protected, taxed, "up you", environmentally concerned, workers have rights country in existence. These may be all good and noble things but in a world that is global and where every segment is saturated with products, they destroy business. Every business owner I know is stuck in a rabbit hole and wants out, not in. And while I'm ranting, the second major reason that it's impossible is because it's a club. Great if your in the club and jobs you don't even know exist come your way, but impossible if you are not.
3. Australia has followed America into the same worm hole and (falsely) banked on education to pull them from the depths. When I graduated from Uni I didn't pay a cent and my eldest son who will graduate this year has a $48K debt tied to him. Going to TAFE and getting your ticket as a machinist will cost you $16K. This is real money that over your existence in this country the ATO will make you pay back. Is it really any wonder many young people decide to take Ice instead?
4. I actually believe war is the only way out. Some have said the climate is like before WW1. I wouldn't know about that but civil unrest in this country is growing, and as the pressure gets greater and the middle class continue to lose then it's only time before the pressure cooker pops.
5. Which brings us to silly comments by Ian, Pauline Hanson, and anyone else that blames China. Last year some friends sold there house site unseen. They even sold all the furniture with it (which should have gone to the tip) walk in walk out for a 98% profit margin. They are now "enjoying life" parked somewhere in NT and enjoying a different sorts of crocodile. Their house was bought by people from China. In Australia today, the only reason the pressure cooker hasn't blown and the only reason people are still enjoying the paradise they call Australia is because of China. They sell the locals cheap goods and buy our expensive assets. All this allows Australians to hang onto the lifestyle we all claim is so dear.

[RCaffin]

Trump has NO chance of turning America around. If manufacturing does come back to the land of America, it will be totally subsidised, automated and full of machines that don't require people.
That is happening right now.

Manufacturing cant happen in Australia
Dunno about that. I AM manufacturing and selling around the world - but it is specialised gear using my knowledge and skills, and I am selling quality and performance at the expensive end of the market. I am NOT competing on price.

Australia has followed America into the same worm hole and (falsely) banked on education to pull them from the depths.
But the alternative is even worse. Without better education you are condemning yourself (your country) to living at the peasant level.

I actually believe war is the only way out
You have NEVER seen war in that case. You are so far out of your depth it is painful.
I have not been in war itself, but I have been on the sidelines and seen the aftermaths.

Cheers
Roger

[handlewanker]

I don't think anyones discussed politics or said Australia isn't a good place to live. I think what several people have said is that it's becoming a harder place to live and there is little place left here for the guy with skilled hands. My view is that it has always been like this.

Yes, the topic is how much does a machinist makes, but this thread has moved into more "is there a future for a machinist in Australia?". A discussion that is still relevant to the topic.

Well, if politics was not on the table it certainly is now........OZ is one of those places that in my humble opinion is a place you can be without the trauma and bustle of the Old World........that means you can sit out back with a cuppa and watching World go by, knowing that they have more to lose by not grinding their noses firmly to the wheel, whereas we dig the dirt out and ship it to whoever needs to convert it.

I know full well that the World has changed and the skilled job syndrome was just another way to earn a living, but in the fullest interpretation of the word, you have to go with the flow and bend with the wind......jobs ain't what they used to be and people are not gearing themselves up to do things the same old way anymore.

The way manufacturing and design was is no more.......you can't make items with the same idea that if it breaks someone will fix it because the labour cost to fix the said item is more than it's worth, so you are locked into a throw away recycle mode and the way to achieve that is to make it by the ton and make it last only as long as the warranty.......that also interpret4ed means no highly skilled person in the equation......a machine that can produce the final product is one way to cut costs and sell more products.

The writing was on the wall way back in time the moment a man made a device to help him make something quicker than he could with his bare hands.

One day I'm sure we will drive a car that gets recycled once the fuel cell has expired......a totally sealed component assembled by a machine designed to last for as long as needed to make it cost effective to produce.

In the meantime, I don't think the person is going to be part of the cost factor for any product manufacturing process.......a big field tended by one person with a large mechanical device will produce products cheaper than a small field worked by a farmer and a plough no matter how many years of experience.

The point is, the average machinist or even an average machine minder still is a heavy cost factor for any manufacturer to bear when it comes to making things.

What is the average machinist's yearly income nowadays?.....if you employ a single helper, no matter how skilled, it will put you back at least $60K to $80K just for his wages, and that means the products are going to have to carry that overhead......start employing more helpers and the law of diminishing returns comes into full force........little wonder OZ is not a manufacturing nation when there are other ways to make money for the national coffers.

We could go to the extreme and set up to make products with high tech machinery and compete to be the cheapest manufacturer, but as that leaves the bulk of the labour force still with nothing to do because a machine tended by a miniscule work force is doing it all, what is the end result.?

The end result World wide will be a situation where anything that can be made is machine made, and if you want to buy the goods you need to re-calculate your job options or become the new World poor.

We have not solved the problem of value for money in the throw away society of today.
Ian.

[FastFarmer]

Ian, I don't agree with your view on why or how, but I totally agree with what you just wrote. It seems you may have decided technology might not be our best friend after all...

[RCaffin]

if you employ a single helper, no matter how skilled, it will put you back at least $60K to $80K just for his wages,
In Australia.
I get the feeling that a basic machinist in the USA might be getting no more than half that.

Cheers
Roger

[handlewanker]

Wow......I have to wonder what a Chinese skilled worker....or is it a skilled operator/machine minder?....... is getting seeing as how the Yanks are blaming the low labour rates in China for their not being able to produce goods to match them.

Somewhere the cookie has crumbled........if the Yanks can buy goods......in the USA......made in China cheaper than they can retail home produced, and that's against the shipping and importer's markup, just where is the problem?......the Chinese manufacturing must be below cost price.....or is being subsidized by another product...... and in that case NOBODY in the World will be able to match their pricing structure.

I have a sneaking feeling that the USA door is being closed on the absent horses.......somewhere there is going to be a huge trade off attempt with subsidies to match the import value or else the made in USA is not going to happen.

It's going to be a very brave retailer who stocks his shelves with the new revival USA made and expensive goods and tries to convince the great unwashed that those are the good stuff and the cheepies are the Chinese brands.

The point is too, the Chinese have been learning fast and making goods for well known trade names for most of the World that once were home produced but now are made in China.

That means if they phase out producing goods for other people's trade name and use their own brands because they have the factories, tooling and more importantly the people with skills to do just that.........all those brands we once knew will be directly converted to Chinese but the goods will still be the same.

I was always of the opinion that made in China, but with a famous brand name, meant the quality of the brand name spoke for itself, no matter where it was made......it was just the price that made it "more affordable".
Ian.

[RCaffin]

The point is too, the Chinese have been learning fast and making goods for well known trade names for most of the World that once were home produced but now are made in China.
That means if they phase out producing goods for other people's trade name and use their own brands because they have the factories, tooling and more importantly the people with skills to do just that...

Just so. It is already happening. The goods with the Western brand go out the front door, and the same goods without the 'right' Western brand go out the back door.
Chuckle - in some cases they go out the back door with a different 'brand' on them. In one case I know of the new brand was relevant, but was chosen simply because the manager liked the look of the brand or logo. The concept of IP or copyright was alien to him. But Western companies were happy to buy the goods for resale in the West while KNOWING that the brand was false. Do not blame the Chinese for what we have taught them.

Welcome to the Brave New World.

Cheers
Roger

[FastFarmer]

I actually believe war is the only way out
You have NEVER seen war in that case. You are so far out of your depth it is painful.
I have not been in war itself, but I have been on the sidelines and seen the aftermaths.

Australia has been at war for many years, but like most Aussies, I stay sheltered and only see snapshots in the media. Despite my protests my youngest recently joined the Navy so I hope it doesn't come any closer.

Remember, people that start wars never fight them... and the public will have no say.