[kgiessler]

Hello All,

I'm a high school drafting & CAD (Autocad & Solidworks) instructor, and I'm working with the other technology teacher on researching CNC machines, with the hopes that we can add one to our program through a grant.

While both of us have some machining experience, neither has experience with CNC. So, we're a little unsure as to how to start our choosing process.

Given its an educational environment, their are two things we are looking for:
1) Versatility: The ability to do many different things is nice when designing a curriculum.
2) Price: Its hard to make a large purchase like this in a school setting.

So far, our 'reference' machine is this one: http://www.cncmasters.com/CNC%20Jr%20Mill.htm

We haven't found one yet that seems like a better choice.
Things We'd Like
1) 3 axis operation, a rotational axis is nice but not a must have
2) Versatility in terms of software (maybe Rhino, or ProE in the future). I honestly dont even know what to be looking for in terms of software compatibility.
3) Hand operation...it would be nice to have it function as an extra hand mill.

If anybody can throw us any advice, it would be so appreciated. Does this model seem like a good choice? Do you know of a model thats a better choice? Anything we should be looking out for so that we dont discover later our choice was a mistake?

Thank You in advance for your help.

-Kurt Giessler

[bkinman]

Check out techno-isel. That is what I used in high school. They have educational discounts, and curriculum to go with the mill. They also have some sort of competition involving machining C02 cars that you can get in on if you are interested.

I think the davinci router was the one we had in school.

[JPMach]

I would suggest looking at a Haas Tool romm mill. You can run it manually, full cnc, or in the middle. For first getting kids interested in it it might be easier with the Haas intuitve programming, once you got them hooked then go into full blown g-code and all.

I know one thing though, whatever machine you do get making something interesting on it. The highschool I went to had a cheap little cnc wood router and all I ever saw them make on it was wooden dice, how boring. Do something a bit more challenging, perhaps a project that consists of several parts that when put together actually does something.

just my 2 cents
JP

[TMT89523]

Kurt
Take a look at Torchmate they have 3 axis systems and the different options for table size depends on how big you want your table. The versatility is un matched because it takes very little time to switch from a cutting torch to routing. Look at thier website http://torchmate.com/

[nervis1]

Haas TM-1 without a doubt. That cnc masters mill is ...well I'll be nice. It's not for you.

With a Haas the students will learn how to operate an industry standard control, you get full CNC, and manual capability, big travels, tool changer, real service if you need it (you will eventually with any mill), and a robust, proven design (compared to the tormach or CNC masters).

Haas AFAIK has educational discounts, you will save big money on the price I hear.

(I'm not associated with Haas in any way BTW)

[NC Cams]

Ditto the nod for the Haas Tool Room Mill. It is also readily adaptable to 4th axis via a plug in module.

AS JPMACH says, it is an "industry standard" device that has "real world" meaning to anyone coming out of school and wants/needs a summer job while going on to college.

Besides, if the school system has to bail out later on due to budget cuts, you might be able to pick up a darn nice mill at a fire sale price.

I am not affiliated with Haas in any way, shape or form either.

[nervis1]

AS JPMACH says, it is an "industry standard" device

Nope, as Nervis says.

[BMackinnon]

Kurt Giessler

I was a student 4 years ago and we had Mastercam for our software. Ive used Virtual Gibbs and Esprit before and I would have to say that Mastercam would be a good software for you and your students. I found the tutorials we used in School were straight forward, easy to read and very informative.

Also, I would say that a Haas would be a good choice cause of thier user-friendly controller, and not just cause I have one either.

[JPMach]

I also am not affiliated with Haas.

As has been said the Haas is an indusrty standard controller. I have seen some of the other little machines that use pc's that have a language all their own. While maybe easy to learn it does not prepare a student for how g- code works that much. Even if you got a TM-1 with out a toolchanger, just having a cat-40 spindle with pull studs will make the students appreciate a good cnc machine capabilities over such things as R-8 taper stuff.

As I said before though don't get a cnc machine and make parts that can be easily made on a manual mill. Make a 3-d part every year or something and put it in a display case in the room somewhere. Also once the kids are a little proficient in the shop be sure and give them a part or two with tight time deadline and see who performs.

JP

[charper]

I also am a Technology Education Teacher. I have two Techno DaVinci 3 axis mill but I hear that I can get a 4th axis adapttion. My kids design in Rhino and I import into Mastercam to make the gcode. So far it is working for me. It is pretty inexpensive and I can do quite a lot of projects with it. Feel free to e-mail me as I cannot always check the posts if you have any additional questions about my classroom shop and projects.

[Errol Groff]

I too am an instructor at the high school level. We have, and I love, a Southwestern Industries TRAK bed mill. The prime advantage I see is the ability to select "trakking" mode wherein the program may be run by moving the X axis handwheel. The machine will follow the exact same path as it would under full CNC control but at a rate that wil not cause heart failure in the novice user. When you are confidant that the program in doing what you intended simply press "stop" then "CNC run" and "Go". The machine then picks up in full CNC mode. At any time you can switch back to trakking mode, for example at a tool change you might want to bring the new tool down by hand to make sure your offsets are correct.

http://www.southwesternindustries.co...ototrak2.shtml

We also have a SWI CNC lathe that has the same trakking mode available. Both machines have been pretty much bullet (and kid) proof.

http://neme-s.org/Clock_Pictures/1.htm has pictures of clocks made by our students. If you have any questions I would be happy to help out if I can.

Errol Groff
H.H. Ellis Technical High School
Danielson, CT

[HuFlungDung]

While cnc may be wonderful to us guys who have a keen interest in metal working, I don't know if a full blown cnc is something I'd want to have a crowd of student 'button pusher' types around. My hackles go up just imagining it

Read the warnings on the front of the Haas spindle housing. Did you know that young minds cannot register the meaning of 'not'? Like the warning "Do not place your hand on the tool and press any buttons to cause a tool change or the toolchanger will move in and crush your hand". So how does that read in the student mind?

I would wonder, do the students currently spend so much time turning handles, and have so many projects to do that they just can't get everything done? Students have a short attention span, and tend to find an automatic machine to be boring to watch. Some of the bolder ones may even try 'things' just to see what happens.

The cnc should be enclosed. It should be for the teachers to learn to use, and maybe the odd special student who demonstrates a serious attitude about the work. Let the rest of them turn handles and watch you run your cnc.

Now some kind of wood-working machine, like a cnc router is relatively innocent. Still needs gcode, students still can plan out parts nesting and simple to complex furniture making, out of cheap materials.

[charper]

d

[nervis1]

Did you know that young minds cannot register the meaning of 'not'? Like the warning "Do not place your hand on the tool and press any buttons to cause a tool change or the toolchanger will move in and crush your hand". So how does that read in the student mind?

c'mon Hu that's why god gave us two hands, one is to learn with. 'least that's what all the guys with less than 5 digits on a side tell me.

[NC Cams]

I took a "Machining Class" at the local vo-ed dept to learn stuff that college never taught me. All I did was end up watching a high school vo-ed teacher do stuff because he didn't trust ADULTS trying to learn how to run his "toys". If his kids were taught the same way, it is no wonder that they became delinquent.

To become a machinist, you have to run machines and make chips. You also have to make some mistakes and hopefully keep all of your digits and eyesight. Breaking a tool and dodging flying molten metal is part of the "learning" process - as in learn NOT to do something that f'ing stupid the next time.

I think that you need to provide the kids with a good machine that isn't a toy for them to learn on. Be it a Bridgeport mill or a Haas, at least they have an "industry standard" device that they might end up running if they are going to be a "machinist".

Hobby style machines may teach them some basics but I don't know if that is what a vo-ed class should be teaching. After all, it is "VOCATIONAL EDUCATION" right? What will the kids eventually see in a vocational environment????

Kids who learn on Mac PC"s will probably be subjected to PC's when they get out into industry. They can biitch about how much better their Mac was at doing whatever or not know any better and simply be productive at using a PC as 90% (hasty generalization) of the industry uses.

One major biitch that industry has is that kids come out of school ill-equipped to function as employee's. Why? Perhaps because the kids were taught on substandard equipement (too much hobby stuff) or by vo-ed teachers that did too much showing and not enough teaching.

If you tech kids and instill in them the expectation that you EXPECT THEM TO MAKE SOMETHING (not in the first class the first class the first week) but surely by the end of the semester or 2ND semester, they will rise to the level of your expectations. Expect lameness, you'll get it. Expect more, you just may not be disappointed either.

The trick is how do you motivate kids who have had no end of computer games and/or non-reality based stuff as opposed to real live stuff that can make stuff or hurt you if you don't treat it with respect.

I too tend to want to show a kid too much. It ain't easy to turn them loose with a Bridgeport. But, you can't teach a kid how to ride a bicycle by showing him how to balance it - he has to learn.

I guess that you go thru the obligatory safety stuff and the menial hole drilling and the like. But eventually you have to teach them how to mill, drill and do real machinist things.

I'd suggest/contend however that doing it on a REAL industry type tool like a Bridgeport or a Haas will do better job of REALLY preparing the kids who DO want to learn machining than on a hobby device that has little relevancy to "real life" shop use.

Get something that teaches/uses REAL G code and/or M codes. Something that is a WYSIWYG "toy" won't be utilizeable in a real machine shop environment - if that is what you're trying to be a "vo-ed class".

I have both Grizzly "toys" and true "Bridgeport" machine shop MACHINES. The toys don't get used much if at all anymore and I can use whatever I please anymore.

Go Bridgeport or Haas - you and the kids will NOT be short changed if/when you do. Moreover, if/when you do ADULT vo-ed classes, the adults who's taxes pay for the stuff you get won't be short changed either.

[HuFlungDung]

Maybe someone can come up with a 'rubber Haas' that can take a few licks

[MetLHead]

Kurt,

Something else you may want to consider is a G-Code simulator. Obviously, not everyone in your class can run the machine at the same time. A simulator can give the rest of the students the "next best thing" until they have an opportunity to use the real thing. I have been developing a G-Code editor and backplotter which, as it turns out, is an excellent teaching tool. If you're interested, check out www.ncplot.com

Ok, shameless plug over.

Scott

[Errol Groff]

"To become a machinist, you have to run machines and make chips. You also have to make some mistakes and hopefully keep all of your digits and eyesight. Breaking a tool and dodging flying molten metal is part of the "learning" process - as in learn NOT to do something that f'ing stupid the next time. "

My motto is :try it, what's the worst that can happenis a complete diasaster and lord knows we have had those before. And will again.

The only way students learn is by doing and in that doing there are going to be exciting moments. I won't go on and on but after 19 years of teaching high school kids how to run machine tools I am convinced that there is no one not capable of learning to one degree or another.

Errol Groff

[JPMach]

MetLHead brings up a good point. If a true mill (bridgebort style or haas or whatever) can't be got due to cost, you might look at having a cheap little benchtop or router style machine and also get a simulator. You can get Haas or Fadal standalone control units for the classroom. The contolers would still have the industry standard G-code and a graphical verification of the program. If you got it with somesort of conversational MDI the students can try and create their own program at the control and then see if the control accepts it and if the path is right.

JP

[Joseph Souza]

Haas- Train them on a machine they may actually see in the field so they become value added "potential" Machinist's'.

Nobody uses any of those other mills to really make money they are garage machines and we need Machinists' here in the good ol' USA or work will flow to China.

Haas may seem to exceed the budget but GO FOR IT, work with a rep they can make it painless Haas is selling like hotcakes they could afford to give it away if you ask me.

And for software use Master Cam or Surfcam or Gibbs thats what they'll see in the real world.

Just my opinion but we need this young workforce your training...keep up the good work it's a noble cause and a decent living.

-Joe
AIM Machining- Owner