[Black Forest]

I am in the thirty day trial period. All files are stored only on/in the cloud, is that correct? Meaning I have no local part files? And it seems really strange to me that one must upload files to the cloud that are on my computer that I made in another CAD product and then download them to work on them with Fusion 360 Ultimate. Or have I missed something?

The subscription thing doesn't bother me at all. Only have my files stored in the cloud really bothers me.

[ger21]

Yes, that's how it works right now. It may change in the future, based on what I've seen in their forums.

[mmoe]

I submitted a feature request/enhancement topic at the Autodesk forums regarding making cloud storage an option so that we could use local storage, but the only response by someone who appeared to be an Autodesk developer was not supporting the idea that they are even considering changing this. Here's his specific response:

All this is a complicated topic.

In short, we have been working to try and fix serious problems that come from the legacy of 20 years of file based cad. There is much that has not surfaced in the tool yet. Assembly references, design variations, as built and branch and merge will solve pervasive design problems. We also know that we must interop with file based systems seamlessly. To make cloud storage optional would be to remove one of the founding technologies upon which Fusion was imagined. We would be looking backwards not forwards.

I complete agree that we have not always met the need of easy file and data management or performance for some users. Each update has internal and external improvements on this front. There will be much improving in the first half of 2015.

We are working on a much deeper explanation on how we think cloud based, decentralized project data can be the basis of powerful collaboration and design available to anyone. I'll post that here too.

When I consider what is said above, all I come away with is that they think that local storage is a thing of the past and have no interest in entertaining ideas that are "backwards" thinking; and that they believe that when their finished product is experienced, no one will miss local file storage. Neither addresses the idea that some can't use online storage at all due to legally binding non-disclosure agreements forbidding the transfer of data by any means on than locally (basically, reading it right off a jump drive is preferred).

The real issue, as I see it, is that these developers are envisioning that everyone is part of some sort of design team that doesn't work in the same building and need to collaborate while living in San Francisco, New York and Austin. My guess is that the vast majority of their users (excluding educational) are sole proprietor type businesses or hobbyists that don't know another Fusion user personally. For the latter (hobbyist), the collaboration is pretty cool since they can get help from others in forums when they run into problems understanding how to use the software by simply adding those people to their project contributor list. For the former, the genuine commercial user who is designing their own unique products, I find it very had to believe that any significant percentage has any desire to share their design process with others. If you're making a new mousetrap, you'll want to be able to patent it and start producing it before anyone else gets wind of your design. These users simply have no need for collaborating in the way that the developers are envisioning, but I highly suspect it comprises the greatest percentage of commercial users. There is virtually no advantage for a single user to store things on the cloud vs. storing it locally, and for every one advantage you could list, there is probably a corresponding disadvantage as compared to local storage. Also, while the hobbyist group of users may be large, they are also the group that does not pay for the software since they can use it under a free license. A sure fire way of going broke is catering your software to the needs of those who don't pay for it, while alienating the customers who do pay for it. If I were in charge of development, I would eliminate the needs of the hobbyist and upstart group entirely since they aren't a source of income, while listening more closely to the needs of those who are actually paying for my product.

While the community is virtually unanimously in support of adding local file storage and translation, I have not been able to find a single post by an Autodesk developer/spokesperson that indicates they have any intention of giving in on that topic. In some topics, they just correct a couple facts without debating the issue either way (like who owns their servers, etc.). In those few instances where they do address the issue in terms of their philosophy, as above, they seem to stick to this design utopia concept where everyone is part of some collaborative universe, which I find in complete contradiction to how small designers actually work since they are highly protective of their ideas and files. I cut parts/prototypes for these designers all the time, and you just about have to pry the jump drive from their fingers when they bring the file, even after signing a NDA. In the few cases where I work with designers that work as a collaborative pair, there is usually one that doesn't do any CAD work at all and is more the "idea guy", while the other takes the ideas and digitizes them collaboratively. I've never encountered a designer that is part of an interstate collaboration, and it just seems odd to me that Autodesk has almost invented a kind of user that probably only exists in the smallest of numbers. And that they are catering to that specific group while ignoring what I believe is the vast majority of potential users is just an odd situation.

[TheCamMan]

you can always go up under your account name in the upper right and select work off line.

[ger21]

I think the real reason for Fusion being cloud based is to make more money. Having to save your files on Autodesk's servers will virtually eliminate piracy, and the subscriptions guarantee a constant revenue stream.

[LeeWay]

Yes.
The files are saved locally too, just not easily accessible. You can work offline for something like two weeks before you must hit the cloud and then it synchronizes with the work you did while offline.

[daniellyall]

ger21, you got it bang on its about money if you do a 30 day trial then don't renew what happens to your files on there cloud its there cloud so are the drawings.

leeway if you can find the local catch on your computer put a shortcut on your desktop to it then you can get your drawings of the pipe line for the cloud its hard to find

[LeeWay]

Thanks. I haven't really done a search for them yet. I have managed to cut out my first batch of parts designed in Fusion and used the 3D CAM side. Very nice. I'll get more into the modeling side at some point to produce some nicer renders for my website. Everything on there now is Turbocad. Don't get me wrong, some guys can really get Turbocad to realistically render. I ain't one of those.

I can't even place a spot light correctly in it.

Fusion makes some very nice easy renders.

If you choose not to keep up after the trial, you can delete your files stored on the cloud.
They do not belong to Autodesk.

[daniellyall]

yea I think that's what people through on that site where you could store your 3D print files then they saw there work was copyrighted by someone else I hope autodesk does not do the same but if people leave there files on the cloud that`s there loss.

the rendering on fusion is fun to play with when you can make your parts look like glass or make a lamp with a light bulb in it and it works it gets hard to tale drawn from a photo

[mmoe]

I think the real reason for Fusion being cloud based is to make more money. Having to save your files on Autodesk's servers will virtually eliminate piracy, and the subscriptions guarantee a constant revenue stream.

Normally, I'd agree. There is one major difference between Fusion and other applications though. With Fusion, they are already giving the software away for free under non-commercial and startup commercial licenses. It seams to me that anyone who would want to pirate a copy of the software would probably be covered under either of those. I'm not positive, but I suspect that the vast majority of pirating occurs in the non-commercial segment, but since I have not seen any actual stats I couldn't say that's a fact. Those I have run into that I suspect pirate software for their use have never been businesses, while every business I know who uses CAD/CAM appears to be on the up and up. I have assumed that since typically they only have one copy on one computer because they can't or don't want to pay for more than that. I would expect that a person who pirates software would probably not care how many computers they install it on.

I don't mind the subscription at all, and I think it eliminates some of the frustrations of trying to stay current that most applications present.

[mmoe]

you can always go up under your account name in the upper right and select work off line.

And how do I load a file a client gives me? If it's possible to do it, I have not figured out a way. As far as I can tell, I can only create a new file in that manner. My clients give me a SAT, IGES or STEP file, and those are the situations where I have a non-disclosure agreement to deal with. If those can't be opened without having them end up online at any point, I am legally bound not to use Fusion. This comprises about 25% of my work, so how willing I am to invest time being 100% proficient in Fusion really hinges on how useful they make their product. I have other products that cost similar money with similar capability, but do not restrict me in the same manner.

If Fusion wants to be competitive, they need to understand that there is a significant portion of their potential market that will be dealing with NDAs and therefor unable to use their product as it sits right now. So far, I get the impression that the over-riding decision making factor is the development team's "vision" of what the future of CAD is. The problem with that mentality is that it is only servicing a small portion of their potential customers while ignoring a significant market in the small job shop sector and sole proprietor industrial designer sector. These groups have absolutely no need for online storage and in some cases the concept of online storage prevents the use of the software entirely (many job shops work under NDAs). There is not a shop in the Puget Sound region that does Boeing subcontracting work of any kind that could use Fusion, simply because every Boeing job comes with an NDA attached. That's probably more than a thousand job shops in this region alone that are automatically not going to be customers of Fusion that might otherwise be excellent candidates. Same will be true here for the majority of fabrication jobs related to Starbucks, Amazon, etc. This isn't really an issue of whether or not something is convenient, it's literally about whether or not it's even possible to use Fusion for the job just because it can't open a file locally and keep it local.

I'm paid up through the year, but as it's going now, I probably will not be renewing. I gather there is a pretty large group of existing customers that feel the same.

[daniellyall]

you are correct in some ways you just need to seek permission to use fusion yes its cloud based that's where you do up loads of files.

but the files are on there servers and amazons rember the us government use amazon so what ever is on there servers is safe you just add a password to your files what is your log in you just need to make the password with 4 or more differences in it with a minim of 20 characters that makes it over a 100 million different possibles for what it is

if the company's that do the nda`s load the file and shear`s it with you that's a way around it they may be using fusion there self that's what autodesk wont`s people to do

[cygnus x-1]

When I consider what is said above, all I come away with is that they think that local storage is a thing of the past and have no interest in entertaining ideas that are "backwards" thinking; and that they believe that when their finished product is experienced, no one will miss local file storage. Neither addresses the idea that some can't use online storage at all due to legally binding non-disclosure agreements forbidding the transfer of data by any means on than locally (basically, reading it right off a jump drive is preferred).

The real issue, as I see it, is that these developers are envisioning that everyone is part of some sort of design team that doesn't work in the same building and need to collaborate while living in San Francisco, New York and Austin. My guess is that the vast majority of their users (excluding educational) are sole proprietor type businesses or hobbyists that don't know another Fusion user personally. For the latter (hobbyist), the collaboration is pretty cool since they can get help from others in forums when they run into problems understanding how to use the software by simply adding those people to their project contributor list. For the former, the genuine commercial user who is designing their own unique products, I find it very had to believe that any significant percentage has any desire to share their design process with others. If you're making a new mousetrap, you'll want to be able to patent it and start producing it before anyone else gets wind of your design. These users simply have no need for collaborating in the way that the developers are envisioning, but I highly suspect it comprises the greatest percentage of commercial users. There is virtually no advantage for a single user to store things on the cloud vs. storing it locally, and for every one advantage you could list, there is probably a corresponding disadvantage as compared to local storage.

I think you're right about ADs stance that cloud storage is fundamental to the entire Fusion program. And I think you're also right that many (or most) commercial users are not so interested in sharing designs, at least with outsiders to their project. But I don't think that's really the point of Fusion. The idea is to allow teams of people to collaborate on design, even if they ARE in the same building, or even sitting right next to each other. It's pretty universal practice now to store things on a central file server where everyone can get access to it without having to swap thumb drives all the time.

Here's a use case:
You have a team of say 4 people; an industrial designer, a mechanical engineer, a fabricator, and a marketing person. The designer uses the sculpting tools in Fusion to come up with a cool looking widget. The mechanical engineer uses Fusion to turn that sculpted model into a design ready for manufacturing. The fabricator uses Fusion to create prototype (or production) widgets. Then the marketing person uses the rendering tools in Fusion to create realistic photo renderings for marketing purposes.

It makes no difference whether they are all in the same room or on the other side of the planet. They can all use the same tool and have access to the latest project files, from their own computer, without having to send files over email or swap thumb drives.
THAT, is the value of Fusion, not sharing your designs with everyone on Facebook.


I actually store all of my designs on the cloud already (I design with Solidworks so I use a non-AD cloud service) for backup purposes, and because I work at home sometimes and got tired of having to carry around a thumb drive all the time. The cloud service I use does store files locally and mirrors them online in the background, so it's transparent to Solidworks. The advantage to this is that working from the local hard drive is faster than working from a flash drive. I've also had flash drives get flakey and cause errors in my files.

Fusion does in fact cache files locally and them sync them with the cloud whenever you save (in online mode), although I think the cache is limited in a time sense (not sure about this). You can also export designs to STEP or IGES format and save locally if you need to. You can also export designs to a Fusion archive file and store locally if you like. This way, if you're really paranoid, you could save all of your work offline and delete it from the cloud when you are finished with a project. If you ever need to get to it again, upload the archive and have at it.

Also, while the hobbyist group of users may be large, they are also the group that does not pay for the software since they can use it under a free license. A sure fire way of going broke is catering your software to the needs of those who don't pay for it, while alienating the customers who do pay for it.

I think you are underestimating the hobby market (look at the market for sub $1000 3D printers that didn't exist before). You're right, most of them will probably never end up being paid customers of Fusion. But some will eventually turn their ideas into profitable businesses. And with tools that are actually affordable, I think you will find more people willing to pay for those tools as opposed to pirating them. It's the same strategy that Apple used in the '80s and '90s by giving computers to schools. It would be hard to argue that that didn't contribute a fair amount to their success.

If I were in charge of development, I would eliminate the needs of the hobbyist and upstart group entirely since they aren't a source of income, while listening more closely to the needs of those who are actually paying for my product.

Why? They already have that product, it's called AutoCAD, or Inventor, or Revit, or 3DSMax, or any of the other I don't know how many products they have that are already intended for industrial use.

What they are trying to do is something new and different. Yes, it might be a gamble and might never really amount to much. But I give them a lot of credit for having some vision and being willing to try something new and potentially risky.

While the community is virtually unanimously in support of adding local file storage and translation, I have not been able to find a single post by an Autodesk developer/spokesperson that indicates they have any intention of giving in on that topic. In some topics, they just correct a couple facts without debating the issue either way (like who owns their servers, etc.). In those few instances where they do address the issue in terms of their philosophy, as above, they seem to stick to this design utopia concept where everyone is part of some collaborative universe, which I find in complete contradiction to how small designers actually work since they are highly protective of their ideas and files. I cut parts/prototypes for these designers all the time, and you just about have to pry the jump drive from their fingers when they bring the file, even after signing a NDA. In the few cases where I work with designers that work as a collaborative pair, there is usually one that doesn't do any CAD work at all and is more the "idea guy", while the other takes the ideas and digitizes them collaboratively. I've never encountered a designer that is part of an interstate collaboration, and it just seems odd to me that Autodesk has almost invented a kind of user that probably only exists in the smallest of numbers. And that they are catering to that specific group while ignoring what I believe is the vast majority of potential users is just an odd situation.

Just because something is new and different, does not mean it's automatically bad. It may be bad or it may be good. But in the end you have to try it to find out for sure. They definitely have some issues to work through with Fusion, but I'm excited to see what they come up with.


C|

[cygnus x-1]

If Fusion wants to be competitive, they need to understand that there is a significant portion of their potential market that will be dealing with NDAs and therefor unable to use their product as it sits right now. So far, I get the impression that the over-riding decision making factor is the development team's "vision" of what the future of CAD is. The problem with that mentality is that it is only servicing a small portion of their potential customers while ignoring a significant market in the small job shop sector and sole proprietor industrial designer sector. These groups have absolutely no need for online storage and in some cases the concept of online storage prevents the use of the software entirely (many job shops work under NDAs). There is not a shop in the Puget Sound region that does Boeing subcontracting work of any kind that could use Fusion, simply because every Boeing job comes with an NDA attached. That's probably more than a thousand job shops in this region alone that are automatically not going to be customers of Fusion that might otherwise be excellent candidates. Same will be true here for the majority of fabrication jobs related to Starbucks, Amazon, etc. This isn't really an issue of whether or not something is convenient, it's literally about whether or not it's even possible to use Fusion for the job just because it can't open a file locally and keep it local.

But you're only looking at it from the point of view of manufacturing job shops. Fusion is first and foremost a DESIGN tool. Yes, they have added machining to it (and it's actually pretty decent), but that's only one part of it.

The NDA issue is a real one, no doubt. But electronic storage and transfer of design data is not going away. It will only become more pervasive as time goes on. So really what is going to have to change is how we manage electronic data and the policies that govern it (the NDAs). Data security is a problem that will have to be dealt with, and it will take some time to get it right. But burying our heads in the sand and hoping that the problem will go away is not the answer.

C|

[LeeWay]

Just a bit of news. The next update of F360 in 3 days will also include a direct access to insert 3D CAD drawing files from the McMaster Carr catalog directly into your model.
Now that is very cool. This is along with other updates etc. Should prove to be a time saver.

[daniellyall]

its only good for you boys in the USA the rest of use its just part files

[LeeWay]

Yeah I read that over there. That is a shame. That is a fine resource. In the past I have found other items in different places that I have used with TurboCad.

3D Content Central



First Cad Library



There are a couple others, but I do not have the links handy.

Here is another.

Trace Parts

I haven't used this one, but it looks interesting.


3D CAD Browser

Nor this one, but it looks interesting as well.

2D and 3D CAD Models

[daniellyall]

there are a lot out there but it would be good if everyone else could get parts from mcmaster`s I will be using the files from there it`s just the rest of what you get with the files is no good..

there`s mcmaster in England I haven`t tried to get parts from there yet might try today if I can all good

[LeeWay]

I know I have heard they do not Ship to Canada even. I do ship all over the World, but use the Postal system rather than UPS or Fed Ex or other shippers. I have no trouble this way. I only ship fairly small packages though and the same cannot be said for what UPS brings me weekly from McMaster some times. I know the difficulties involved too at the border for UPS when shipping to Canada. There can be some large brokerage fees depending on the location of the buyer. Couple that with the fact that McMaster Carr also sells many regulated items that cannot be shipped to certain countries.
Even as large as they are, I'm sure it is a headache trying to keep up efficiency and follow the letter of the law and insure you receive enough money for the actual shipment.
I feel bad for you guys,but I do understand them.

[daniellyall]

well when I tried to get something of them brushes for my dust shoe they replied saying that they can not sell to as rule bla, bla prohibited sale to you bla bla I live in NZ and they also said don't try again and don't visit our site again because of rule bla, bla.

so I got what I wonted from a different store in the USA and it was sent by UPS so it just a load of lazy BS

so what ever they clam is a rule its wrong