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  1. #101
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
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    255

    Re: Tormach 1100 vs. Haas VF3

    Without going into the whole "not even in the same world" discussion.

    HAAS control is very easy to learn.

    That said it takes at almost a day to show a group of 3 experienced machinists just how to operate it.

    That involves some MDI, Tool Probing, Tool Setting, Jogging, you name it.

    Other than that it that was me i would buy what i can afford.
    If i needed a machine to run some parts for a living, and could afford HAAS, i would not even think about tormach. (not trying to offend anyone)

    The difference in productivity is easily ten fold. That is the difference between making 10$ versus 100$ per hour.

    Because of this "difference of kind" i believe there is little benefit to train people of Tormach. If anything they would be too slow and scared when moving to real machines.
    http://zero-divide.net
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  2. #102
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
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    1788

    Re: Tormach 1100 vs. Haas VF3

    Quote Originally Posted by zero_divide View Post
    Without going into the whole "not even in the same world" discussion.

    HAAS control is very easy to learn.
    I've never worked on a Haas (or any other CNC than Tormach) so I'm curious. What Haas features make it so easy to learn?

  3. #103
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    255
    Quote Originally Posted by kstrauss View Post
    I've never worked on a Haas (or any other CNC than Tormach) so I'm curious. What Haas features make it so easy to learn?
    It is a purpose built for machining.

    So the majority of hardware buttons' functionality stays the same does not matter which screen you are on.

    You can move from anywhere to anywhere in one press of a button.

    IE you are in MDI and to get to Tool Offsets you press only one button. No need to go through a series of screens.

    Tool overload protection and control-based backplotting are very sweet too.
    http://zero-divide.net
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  4. #104
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1863

    Re: Tormach 1100 vs. Haas VF3

    Not to mention, a nicely equipped Tormach is about $22,000.00 while a comparably equipped Haas VF3 will set you back a cool $100,000.00.

    Yes, there are advantages to the Haas. On the Haas you can drop a 3/4 inch end mill 3/4 into an aluminum part and cut a pocket at 75 IPM.

    Don't try that on your Tormach.

    I might point out, I can do anything on my Tormach that you can do on a Haas VF3, it's just gonna take a little longer.

    I have learned over time how to make large pockets a lot quicker than by side cutting.

  5. #105
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2512

    Re: Tormach 1100 vs. Haas VF3

    Quote Originally Posted by zero_divide View Post

    Because of this "difference of kind" i believe there is little benefit to train people of Tormach. If anything they would be too slow and scared when moving to real machines.
    For somebody who is not trying to offend you're making a pretty good job of doing it. ............. LITTLE BENEFIT ................... SLOW and SCARED ............... REAL MACHINES.

    Phil

  6. #106
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2512

    Re: Tormach 1100 vs. Haas VF3

    Quote Originally Posted by zero_divide View Post
    If i needed a machine to run some parts for a living, and could afford HAAS, i would not even think about tormach. (not trying to offend anyone)

    The difference in productivity is easily ten fold. That is the difference between making 10$ versus 100$ per hour.
    Machining time and productivity are not the same thing. For example if you do ones and twos then 90% of your time per part is not machine running time.

    It seems you are severely exaggerating the case for the HAAS, which is not particularly helpful to the new guy.

    Phil

  7. #107
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    3447

    Re: Tormach 1100 vs. Haas VF3

    Milling Machine CNC with Enclosure 3502 - LittleMachineShop.com

    Have them learn on this. At $4200 they are disposable, nothing much to them either and they do work Great for what they are.

    Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

  8. #108
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    170

    Re: Tormach 1100 vs. Haas VF3

    If you are training machinist to go in to production or job shops, use real machines. Depending on what you are making, you could do way more then 10x production on a vf3 over a tormach. Small parts, big tables, 700ipm rapids, rigid tapping at 500ipm.

    Or you might only save 5min.

    These machines are worlds apart. Just do a part count on a spindle before rebuild. Or find two shops and compare dollars.

    But the cost reflects this. It's a foolish comparison. Your pocket will dictate what you buy.

    If you buy a tormach and an keep it busy, it should pay for a vf3. If you can not keep it busy, do you need a vf3?

  9. #109
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    1026

    Re: Tormach 1100 vs. Haas VF3

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckorlando View Post
    If you are training machinist to go in to production or job shops, use real machines.
    I'd agree if the only goal is to train button-pushers who can set an offset or two, load stock, hit the green button, and know not to drink the coolant. There is a whole world of understanding CAD, CAM programming, posting, simulation, etc. not to mention tooling and workholding, which have very little to do with machine controllers as such.

    While I am sure some employers just want turnkey button-pushers they can hire to replace the guy with a meth habit who didn't show up this morning, I would bet that most if not all of the "good" employers would be delighted to find a guy who knew how to design a part in parametric CAD, program toolpaths, design a simple fixture, and manually tweak the G-code where the CAM did something stupid. Even if they start them as a button-pusher, that's someone you *know* can be trained quickly on their machines, and is worth investing in.

  10. #110
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    170

    Re: Tormach 1100 vs. Haas VF3

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    I must have missed where I said not to teach that stuff...

    When I went to school, we learned all that and done so on real machines, with real industrial controls. We also started on manuals. Surface grinding, hand sharpening tools, radial arms, huge gap beds, camworks, hsmworks, fusion360, solidworks, 280 toolingu certifications, probing, mold making, hardening, tig and mig etc etc. So imagine even my surprise, at my above mentioned opinion.

  11. #111
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    170

    Re: Tormach 1100 vs. Haas VF3

    Most shops have no clue what a tormach is. They certainly have no idea what a pathpilot is. You are doing nothing but a disservice to students if thats the extent of the machines they train on.

    I'm not saying tormachs are not great.

    I am saying most of the manufacturing world has no clue what they are. And if they do, there is a good chance they view them as hobby machines.

  12. #112
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3063

    Re: Tormach 1100 vs. Haas VF3

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckorlando View Post
    I am saying most of the manufacturing world has no clue what they are. And if they do, there is a good chance they view them as hobby machines.
    That's certainly the case over on one of the larger forums where mostly pro machinists and machine shop owners hang out. Mentioning CNC-Zone there is a good way to get a thread locked as is is discussion of cheap import tools or the Smaller Atlas and Craftsman domestic tools from the 30's-60's. I'm not sure why either situation should bother anyone, but it surely does.

  13. #113
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    1026

    Re: Tormach 1100 vs. Haas VF3

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckorlando View Post
    Most shops have no clue what a tormach is. They certainly have no idea what a pathpilot is. You are doing nothing but a disservice to students if thats the extent of the machines they train on.

    I'm not saying tormachs are not great.

    I am saying most of the manufacturing world has no clue what they are. And if they do, there is a good chance they view them as hobby machines.
    Chuck, I think your post bugged me because I deal a lot with job candidates who come with stacks of certifications that prove nothing except that they know how to cram for a test. If you ask them what 2 + 3 is they'll say 5, but if you ask them what 3+2 is they don't know because they don't actually understand the material, they just memorized a bunch of stuff from a book.

    If your point is that a person who knows how to do everything I described on a Tormach, goes for an entry-level job at a shop, and doesn't get an interview because it doesn't say "Haas Control" on his resume, you may be right for many companies. I'm just saying that a guy who can design, program, and make a part on a Tormach is far ahead in terms of potential versus a guy who took a short course in which buttons to push on a VF-1. Most companies are pretty stupid in their hiring processes and disqualify a lot of people because they don't know how to identify the right skills and correctly assess candidates against them.

    The most successful shop owner I know is hiring people with virtually no prior training or experience (basically right out of high school) because it's so hard to find people here even with very competitive pay (16/hr start for no experience). I am sure if someone showed up with a part he made in a class using a Tormach, he would at least get an interview.

  14. #114
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    1026

    Re: Tormach 1100 vs. Haas VF3

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelHenry View Post
    Mentioning CNC-Zone there is a good way to get a thread locked as is is discussion of cheap import tools or the Smaller Atlas and Craftsman domestic tools from the 30's-60's. I'm not sure why either situation should bother anyone, but it surely does.
    MH, I know the board you refer to and am a member and poster there as are many people in this group. The reason is that it's intended to be a forum for professional machinists in industry and the site owner doesn't want it getting overrun by hobbyists as he makes his money selling ads to Sandvik, Mazak, etc. who don't want to pay to reach guys who buy most of their tools from Grizzly.

    As with many other pursuits (e.g. photography) the line between pro and amateur is not always clear and there are cases where amateurs know a lot more. I have found the other members there to be entirely respectful and mostly friendly to amateurs who had pro-level questions or answers. For people with more basic questions there are a lot of other boards (like this one) that are more appropriate and I do not hold it against them that they want to keep it mostly above that level.

  15. #115
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    170

    Re: Tormach 1100 vs. Haas VF3

    Brother I agree 300% On all points. Perception is reality though. I have watched hours of tormach video's. I know it can get it done. I also know most the best machinist can be located in a garage using old or small machines. It's the limitations of those machines that make them so good. I hugely respect a man who can get it done with what he has. At the end of the day, thats the dude who will fine a solution.

    The real problem is the business model. It takes one smart guy to keep 50 button pushers running. They prefer you be dumb because they just do not have a place for you to go that pays what you are worth.

    In this market, any strike is a strike. Even more so coming out of tech school. Down here they just assume you aint worth deburring a part when you graduate. And rightly so after you see what passes ahahahaha. Some guys are shooting for the stars, most figure it out but will never be more then set-up operator. Some pass on nothing but scrap.

    I'll be honest with you, the industry is terrible. I recently moved into industrial maintenance for the pay. I had my shop finished last week. I may very well end up with a few tormach machines. Just depends whats on the market. They will work great with my old manuals.

    As you can see, I have a sour taste in my mouth from American Manufacturing and the education of it. Due to this, any strike is a bad strike today.

  16. #116
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    480

    Re: Tormach 1100 vs. Haas VF3

    Quote Originally Posted by sansbury View Post
    MH, I know the board you refer to and am a member and poster there as are many people in this group. The reason is that it's intended to be a forum for professional machinists in industry and the site owner doesn't want it getting overrun by hobbyists as he makes his money selling ads to Sandvik, Mazak, etc. who don't want to pay to reach guys who buy most of their tools from Grizzly.

    As with many other pursuits (e.g. photography) the line between pro and amateur is not always clear and there are cases where amateurs know a lot more. I have found the other members there to be entirely respectful and mostly friendly to amateurs who had pro-level questions or answers. For people with more basic questions there are a lot of other boards (like this one) that are more appropriate and I do not hold it against them that they want to keep it mostly above that level.
    I'm a member of that "Board" as well. There is a wealth of information on that board for anything you can think of regarding the various processes. Also some very helpful people. Do a search for any type of process, and you can find some very valuable information specific to your process. Like maintaining geometric tolerance on a hole 30 diameters deep etc. As far as the OP, I don't get the sense this is a vocational school teaching machining for a career. If it was, yes, learning Mach3 or Pathpilot would be pretty useless. They should be learning Siemans, Fanuc HASS controls etc.that you will see in a professional machine shop. If the goal is teaching the process as a whole, (CAD,CAM,Setup,offsets,chip load etc), then on of these system would work fine. No they are not "real: machines, but the same principles apply understanding the limitations. Trying to hog 304SS would shake one of these machines to pieces. There is no comparison when it comes to rigidity/horse power between a 1200 lb mill and a 10,000 lb mill. Having said all that, these small machine can certainly make money in the right scenario. And getting started in a garage with limited space/no 3 phase power etc, there are very few options. I started a new job 2 years ago in the semi conductor industry as a design engineer not knowing anything about the semiconductor industry as it pertains to making wafers. We do a lot of parts for in house use in quantity's of 2 to 100 pieces constantly. They had an instant need for a small aluminum part, so I volunteered. When they realized I could turn around parts in 2 days instead of 2-4 weeks, The flood gates opened and its been non stop ever since. I've made parts from Aluminum,304SS, Ultem, HDPE, Teflon, Delrin,Polycarb etc. in sizes ranging from 22" x 22" to tiny nozzles with .012"diameter .4" deep holes on my Novakon torus pro. Many of the tolerances are +/- .003" which I can hold (verified on our Faro digitizer) on a 22" x 22" part that has to be machined in "halves" due to limited y travel. A HAAS mini mill would would work in a garage, but those thing are $50K (Which makes no sense to me) Sure id love to have one, but the work envelope is smaller than my torus, and that's a deal killer.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by sansbury View Post
    Chuck, I think your post bugged me because I deal a lot with job candidates who come with stacks of certifications that prove nothing except that they know how to cram for a test. If you ask them what 2 + 3 is they'll say 5, but if you ask them what 3+2 is they don't know because they don't actually understand the material, they just memorized a bunch of stuff from a book.

    If your point is that a person who knows how to do everything I described on a Tormach, goes for an entry-level job at a shop, and doesn't get an interview because it doesn't say "Haas Control" on his resume, you may be right for many companies. I'm just saying that a guy who can design, program, and make a part on a Tormach is far ahead in terms of potential versus a guy who took a short course in which buttons to push on a VF-1. Most companies are pretty stupid in their hiring processes and disqualify a lot of people because they don't know how to identify the right skills and correctly assess candidates against them.

    The most successful shop owner I know is hiring people with virtually no prior training or experience (basically right out of high school) because it's so hard to find people here even with very competitive pay (16/hr start for no experience). I am sure if someone showed up with a part he made in a class using a Tormach, he would at least get an interview.
    I have to agree with you and further add I’ve hired guys who cannot run a manual mill yet claim to be CNC machinists. Screwing up work and telling me they can’t read the metric system. Seriously I don’t know and everyone wants $25/hr yet at the end of a 8hr shift they make me $200 in parts which in many cases are not even finished. Do the math. Keep them or boot them?

  18. #118
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1863

    Re: Tormach 1100 vs. Haas VF3

    Comparing Tormach 1100 to a Haas VF 3 is like comparing a fire cracker to an atom bomb.
    You can buy GOOD PARTS or you can buy CHEAP PARTS, but you can't buy GOOD CHEAP PARTS.

  19. #119
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    591

    Re: Tormach 1100 vs. Haas VF3

    everyone wants $25/hr yet at the end of a 8hr shift they make me $200 in parts
    In any business, I've found that there are the top 15% of people that are great and drive things forward; the bottom 15% that won't pull their weight, and the middle 70% who are okay as far as they're doing what they're used to and trained for.
    If you can identify and not hire the bottom 15%, then you can pay some mix of middle-70% and top-15% and do well. Generally, the top-15% will cost more, but give you more per dollar paid than the middle.
    I sometimes wish I could run a business of only top-15%-ers, but that's a pipe dream :-) (I hire people other than machinists in my day job, but I've seen this hold true in several areas/businesses, so I think it's universal.)
    Of course, the best have options in the market, and often know it, so you have to compete with the big names. Then there's those who aren't quite in the top 15%, yet think they are...

  20. #120
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    673

    Re: Tormach 1100 vs. Haas VF3

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatte View Post
    In any business, I've found that there are the top 15% of people that are great and drive things forward; the bottom 15% that won't pull their weight, and the middle 70% who are okay as far as they're doing what they're used to and trained for.
    If you can identify and not hire the bottom 15%, then you can pay some mix of middle-70% and top-15% and do well. Generally, the top-15% will cost more, but give you more per dollar paid than the middle.
    I sometimes wish I could run a business of only top-15%-ers, but that's a pipe dream :-) (I hire people other than machinists in my day job, but I've seen this hold true in several areas/businesses, so I think it's universal.)
    Of course, the best have options in the market, and often know it, so you have to compete with the big names. Then there's those who aren't quite in the top 15%, yet think they are...
    Its true in any industry. The A players know what they are worth and won't stick around in a poorly run organization. The B players know their weaknesses and are usually your best long term bet because they can be developed and will do a good job. The C players think they are A players and need to be dumped as soon as possible unless you need button pushers.

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