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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
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    7063

    Re: MORE HP for PCNC

    Not sure what kind of MMR you're looking to get.... The stock machine, with 1.5HP, should be good for 3-4 cu. in./min, if not limited by rigidity. And I know that both my knee mill, and my Novakon (which is MUCH bigger and heavier than the 770), is limited by rigidity, not power. I find it hard to believe the 770 will be able to make good use of more power than the stock motor provides. Using smarter (i.e. - constant engagement) toolpaths goes a long way towards mitigating marginal rigidity. But with small cutters, you may be more limited by RPM than by IPM.

    Regards,
    Ray L.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    110

    Re: MORE HP for PCNC

    I use VisualMill within SolidWorks, it's an older STD package and doesn't have highspeed path generation capability unfortunately.

    my machine is a 1100 by the way.

    jh

  3. #43
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    Feb 2006
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    7063

    Re: MORE HP for PCNC

    Quote Originally Posted by johnh View Post
    I use VisualMill within SolidWorks, it's an older STD package and doesn't have highspeed path generation capability unfortunately.

    my machine is a 1100 by the way.

    jh
    VisualMill is a gigantic turd! WORST.... CAM.... EVER!!! I owned it for two weeks last year, before demanding my money back. My conversations with them convinced me there isn't a single person in that entire company that would know a milling machine if one fell on their heads. Burn your VisualMill CD, and download HSMXpress - it's free for Solidworks users, and it will make your machine sing! I run all day long using HSMXpress toolpaths. My standard roughing cut in 6061, using a $12 HSS 2-flute, is 6000 RPM, up to 1" DOC, 0.05" WOC, at 110 IPM, and, as I said, that is at the rigidity limit of my machines. I can fill a 33 gallon garbage can with chips in a single day without breaking a sweat, with "only" 1.5HP.

    Regards,
    Ray L.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    1082

    Re: MORE HP for PCNC

    Quote Originally Posted by tmarks11 View Post
    That is another way to go, hadn't thought of it that way.

    You could, but you need to make sure you set the FLA (Full Load Amps) setting to be 1/1.73 of the normal max limit of the VFD.

    But take that thought one step further: just run your 5 HP motor on a 3 HP VFD with single phase input and save a little money, as it would essentially be the same thing.
    ...
    Thanks! The single-phase, 3-HP VFD sounds like a much better way to go than a derated 5-HP. I now see that 3HP isn't what johnh is after though, unfortunately.

    I'm interested to see where this project goes. I am also of the (mostly unlearned) opinion that these machines are more limited by rigidity than HP. But, since I'm wrong about these things all the time, I'm curious to see what will happen if this project actually goes anywhere.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    367

    Re: MORE HP for PCNC

    I'm in the "nothing ventured, nothing gained" crowd. Although not a Tormach, my mill is about the same size. Two years ago, I replaced the spindle motor with a 3KW (4HP), 2 pole motor. Mind you, all my work is in aluminum. The original motor was suppose to be rated at 2HP, which I really doubted. Naturally, I had folks telling me I'm nuts. I heard things about spindle dropping, bearings failing, finish quality, don't use a 2 pole motor, etc, etc, etc.

    Anyway after close to 2 1/2 years, I can say that this has been one of the best things I ever did on my mill. My finishes have actually improved, my cut times have been reduced. Again, I only work with aluminum, thus the 2 pole motor worked for me. I've already run parts with 10K spindle speeds and the spindle purred like a kitten.

    Here is an older video of the mill facing a piece of stock, using a 4" face mill....



    The motor is a Binder 2 pole pump motor. I bought it on Ebay for $100.00. I had the rotor re-balanced at a motor rewind shop that I use to work for. I'm using a Hitachi WJ200-022SF drive with this motor. I initially had a Huanyang VFD (which worked great), but, decided on the vector drive, to basically learn how to use them

    One thing I did notice, when I made my first cuts. The machine had a more solid sound when cutting. I'm sure this is due to the weight of the motor, adding some mass to the head.

    Anyway, enjoy your adventure....it's stuff like this that make new ideas happen
    pete

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2151

    Re: MORE HP for PCNC

    Quote Originally Posted by SCzEngrgGroup View Post
    VisualMill is a gigantic turd! WORST.... CAM.... EVER!!! I owned it for two weeks last year, before demanding my money back. My conversations with them convinced me there isn't a single person in that entire company that would know a milling machine if one fell on their heads. Burn your VisualMill CD, and download HSMXpress - it's free Regards,
    Ray L.

    I read comments like this and wonder! How can someone make a full assessment of a complex product that can cost more then $5k in 2 weeks while doing all their other normal routines.
    I guess I could buy one of the mills he promotes along with one of his pdb's he makes and tool changers if there is one and then decide in 2 weeks if its a turd or not.

    If I had 5 cents for every time someone told me my cam software was junk it would have been free. And I must say I laugh at those comments now. Knowing that not only is the software very powerful but is very easy to use. Just had to learn it and it took more then 2 weeks. The point I am making for thread readers is be very skeptical of these opinions. Some people are somewhat skill limited when it comes to software and will not adapt or learn its methods.
    md

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    1602

    Re: MORE HP for PCNC

    Depending on your approach and expectations this could work. I think that what you do with the extra power has a lot to do with it. If you use it to increase your MRR by increasing spindle speed and feedrate then, all other things being equal (Cutter dia, DOC, chip load, number of teeth), you will probably be quite satisfied with the performance of the machine. However if you try to increase your MRR by keeping spindle speed and feedrate the same and increasing cutter size and DOC, you will add a lot of stress and will likely not be pleased by the results.

    It would be a good exercise to spend a bit of time with a good feed and speed calculator before deciding on how much HP you need (FSWizard online is good). The amount of HP you can put into a cut will also depend on the available feedrate. Assuming a Series 3 upgrade and no spindle speed limit (assume 25000 in the calculator, it will in most cases be sfm limited), at 110 ipm with a 3/8" cutter, it is hard to find a cut that makes sense on a Tormach that goes much over 3 HP.

    bob

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    7063

    Re: MORE HP for PCNC

    Quote Originally Posted by mountaindew View Post
    I read comments like this and wonder! How can someone make a full assessment of a complex product that can cost more then $5k in 2 weeks while doing all their other normal routines.
    I guess I could buy one of the mills he promotes along with one of his pdb's he makes and tool changers if there is one and then decide in 2 weeks if its a turd or not.

    If I had 5 cents for every time someone told me my cam software was junk it would have been free. And I must say I laugh at those comments now. Knowing that not only is the software very powerful but is very easy to use. Just had to learn it and it took more then 2 weeks. The point I am making for thread readers is be very skeptical of these opinions. Some people are somewhat skill limited when it comes to software and will not adapt or learn its methods.
    md
    The thing that baffles me most about this particular forum is the almost non-stop personal insults from some members. And this from a guy I'm pretty certain has never even seen, much less used, VisualMill. If my evaluation was so flawed, as you naturally assume, why did they so readily agree with my assessment and refund the full purchase price, with NO argument whatsoever?

    And WTF does the brand of my machine, or the fact that I manufacture and sell accessories for it have to do with the topic of this thread, other than as another personal attack? Not that you ever would, but if you want to evaluate my product in two weeks, I encourage you to right ahead and do so. I am 100% confident you'll find it performs exactly as advertised, provided you stay honest, and don't just make stuff up.

    Keep it up this kind of cr@p, and maybe you can get yet another thread closed - the true hallmark of this forum.

    Sometimes, in the real world, a product is sooooo bad, you can see very quickly that it is missing critical functionality, and some features are implemented so badly that that it is quite obvious right off the bat. I've used MANY different CAM systems, and I've been writing, and using, software in my work for over 35 years, so I can dive in and start working very quickly, even on complex programs. I was productive on my very first day with Solidworks. You've used, I think.... One CAM system?

    In particular, the way VisualMill implements feeds and speeds is absolutely pathetic - an absolutely critical feature. The tool table alone would have taken WEEKS to build, and could be done ONLY by hand. Their toolpath generation was stone-age, and created incredibly inefficient paths that took FOREVER to run. I've used $100 products that were an order of magnitude better. The POST capability was, by FAR, the most limited I have ever seen. It was positively RIDDLED with serious bugs. I logged over 50 support tickets in those two weeks, and form many the response was simply "that's a bug - there is no work-around"! So, you really think more time would have helped improve their toolpaths? Or made the feeds and speeds calculations usable? Or magically fixed the dozens of bugs I found?

    It took me less than a week with HSMXPress to write a complete, ground-up custom post that does everything I wanted (this was IMPOSSIBLE in VisualMill, as confirmed by their support team). After two weeks with VisualMill, and countless hours with their support team, I was unable to create a workable POST, or a single usable g-code program. After a few hours with HSMXpress, I was making parts, and the run-times were a fraction what they would have been using VisualMill - sometimes by a factor or 3 or more! Yeah, I really didn't give it a fair shake....

    So, yes, it is possible for some of us to do an in-depth evaluation in a short time.

    Regards,
    Ray L.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    889

    Re: MORE HP for PCNC

    You tell em Ray. Lol.
    I too never understood Visualmill and it's poor toolpath creation.
    I'll say it again, these forums are filled with armchair engineers.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    8

    Re: MORE HP for PCNC

    Quote Originally Posted by G59 View Post
    You tell em Ray. Lol.
    I too never understood Visualmill and it's poor toolpath creation.
    I'll say it again, these forums are filled with armchair engineers.
    Don't forget the fanboys too. My first experience on this forum was a vicious and personal set of attacks between two guys over what machine the OP should get. The OP asked for a nice garage/hobby level machine, 'like a Bridgeport but with CNC'. Responder 1 said 'take a look at Tormach, they have some nice stuff at that pricepoint' this dude flies into the thread and calls them all ****heads for not getting a Haas. This goes back and forth for a bit before the OP comes back in and thanks responder 1 and closes the thread.

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    23

    Re: MORE HP for PCNC

    Quote Originally Posted by mountaindew View Post
    I read comments like this and wonder! How can someone make a full assessment of a complex product that can cost more then $5k in 2 weeks while doing all their other normal routines.
    I guess I could buy one of the mills he promotes along with one of his pdb's he makes and tool changers if there is one and then decide in 2 weeks if its a turd or not.

    If I had 5 cents for every time someone told me my cam software was junk it would have been free. And I must say I laugh at those comments now. Knowing that not only is the software very powerful but is very easy to use. Just had to learn it and it took more then 2 weeks. The point I am making for thread readers is be very skeptical of these opinions. Some people are somewhat skill limited when it comes to software and will not adapt or learn its methods.
    md
    Bravo brother, everyone is entitled to their opinions but some seem to think THEIRS is the only one that matters and no one should be allowed to disagree. You have done a great job helping to dispel negativity towards Sprutcam just as aldepalo when he was here dispelling bobad/cam detractors.

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    7063

    Re: MORE HP for PCNC

    Quote Originally Posted by yulolaf View Post
    Bravo brother, everyone is entitled to their opinions but some seem to think THEIRS is the only one that matters and no one should be allowed to disagree. You have done a great job helping to dispel negativity towards Sprutcam just as aldepalo when he was here dispelling bobad/cam detractors.
    Oh, I see now..... So everyone is entitled to their own opinion, as long as it agrees with yours. Otherwise, it's ok to insult their intelligence and question their integrity.... I must have missed that memo.

    I couldn't care less who disagrees with me, as long as they do it in a civilized manner. That is most definitely NOT what has happened here. To imply that someone is a liar, or incompetent, or especially to question someones integrity is, on most forums except this one is, out of bounds, as it should be. You want to disagree? Have at it. But make a FACT-based argument, don't just make ad hominem attacks. That has no place here. To do so when the person lobbing the insults has zero experience with the product in question, is, in a word, ludicrous.

    Regards,
    Ray L.

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    23

    Re: MORE HP for PCNC

    Sorry but I disagree.

  14. #54
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    Feb 2006
    Posts
    7063

    Re: MORE HP for PCNC

    Quote Originally Posted by yulolaf View Post
    Sorry but I disagree.
    Disagree with what part???? We should not bother trying to be civil here?

    Regards,
    Ray L.

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    134

    Re: MORE HP for PCNC

    Wow, I don't visit this forum often these days, but when I do, I'm often struck by the significant degree of personal animosity on display, and the never-ending brand-allegiance spats.
    I think some folks here need a few more tools in their shop to improve, and to spend much less time getting personal and mean-spirited over opinions of minor significance.

    FWIW, I bought a seat of VisualMill and wasn't smart enough to send it back in time to get a refund. Instead I now "own" yet another expensive but worthless bit of software that is out of maintenance, reduced to one more license key dongle in my box full of old useless key dongles. (including my SprutCAM key)
    HSMxpress works great for me, and I'm going to be licensing the 3D package for short-term periods as needed, now that it's available for yearly or monthly lease. For the kind of sporadic prototyping work I do, this is perfect for my needs. I want yet another annual software maintenance fee about as much as I want another hole in my head.

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    161

    Re: MORE HP for PCNC

    If you have something negative and off topic to say, PM it. People came here to read about adding horsepower, not filter through pages of nonsense.

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    1082

    Re: MORE HP for PCNC

    With experience comes the ability to quickly spot problems. I'll take the word of someone who has actually owned a piece of software or actually installed a larger motor into a comparible mill over someone who hasn't.

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    7063

    Re: MORE HP for PCNC

    Quote Originally Posted by tmarks11 View Post
    So what HP VFD are you looking at?
    Tim,

    Your PM inbox is full....

    Regards,
    Ray L.

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    110

    Re: MORE HP for PCNC

    Quote Originally Posted by SCzEngrgGroup View Post
    VisualMill is a gigantic turd! WORST.... CAM.... EVER!!! I owned it for two weeks last year, before demanding my money back. My conversations with them convinced me there isn't a single person in that entire company that would know a milling machine if one fell on their heads. Burn your VisualMill CD, and download HSMXpress - it's free for Solidworks users, and it will make your machine sing! I run all day long using HSMXpress toolpaths. My standard roughing cut in 6061, using a $12 HSS 2-flute, is 6000 RPM, up to 1" DOC, 0.05" WOC, at 110 IPM, and, as I said, that is at the rigidity limit of my machines. I can fill a 33 gallon garbage can with chips in a single day without breaking a sweat, with "only" 1.5HP.

    Regards,
    Ray L.
    it was a bit clunky, funny. tried HSMX and found it clunky? I would prefer something other than VisualMill but it was the cheapest with SW plugin and I had already been running the stand alone version.

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    110

    Re: MORE HP for PCNC

    Quote Originally Posted by slowtwitch View Post
    I'm in the "nothing ventured, nothing gained" crowd. Although not a Tormach, my mill is about the same size. Two years ago, I replaced the spindle motor with a 3KW (4HP), 2 pole motor. Mind you, all my work is in aluminum. The original motor was suppose to be rated at 2HP, which I really doubted. Naturally, I had folks telling me I'm nuts. I heard things about spindle dropping, bearings failing, finish quality, don't use a 2 pole motor, etc, etc, etc.

    Anyway after close to 2 1/2 years, I can say that this has been one of the best things I ever did on my mill. My finishes have actually improved, my cut times have been reduced. Again, I only work with aluminum, thus the 2 pole motor worked for me. I've already run parts with 10K spindle speeds and the spindle purred like a kitten.

    Here is an older video of the mill facing a piece of stock, using a 4" face mill....



    The motor is a Binder 2 pole pump motor. I bought it on Ebay for $100.00. I had the rotor re-balanced at a motor rewind shop that I use to work for. I'm using a Hitachi WJ200-022SF drive with this motor. I initially had a Huanyang VFD (which worked great), but, decided on the vector drive, to basically learn how to use them

    One thing I did notice, when I made my first cuts. The machine had a more solid sound when cutting. I'm sure this is due to the weight of the motor, adding some mass to the head.

    Anyway, enjoy your adventure....it's stuff like this that make new ideas happen

    you my sir understand the project!

    jh

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