[philbur]

It will probably improve damping, depending on the quality of the execution, but did anybody bother to do the engineering numbers on increase in stiffness. You may be surprise on how little you get. I was.

Concrete and the like is 3 times more flexible than steel, yes really, check the modulus of elasticity, and epoxy of course is your original wet spaghetti.

Phil

[EvolveES]

it's cool to see that someone besides myself has thought of this, my idea was structural concrete with a small rebar-like frame. I used to work for a cell phone reinforcement company that did monopole modifications to strengthen them for additional weight. They would increase pole rigidity with these engineered channel plates that were bolted or welded onto the outside of the pole. My idea was to use one of these channels on each side of the base, and one on each side of the column, and then fill with concrete (but granite could easily be used as well). It wouldn't be very beautiful but if it added rigidity i would be happy, most likely will never get around to it though lol. I would love to see someone fill their tormach and post results.

[G59]

Phil, I agree. For dampening, you would get better results by filling the void with packed, oil impregnated sand . Rigidity wise, waste of time.

[Steve Seebold]

If the PCNC 1100 was designed to run more HP, do you guys honestly think Tormach wouldn't have used a more powerful spindle motor?

If you really feel the need for more HP, you'll need to change your spindle from R8 to the BT30. Then you're going to run into rigidity issues.

All I can say is, if you add the extra HP, I hope you have lots of money because the only thing you're really going to do is destroy your machine.

My machine will be 4 years old in July, and it still runs like it did the day I took it out of the box. I have used my 50 plus years of machining background to learn new ways of removing large amounts of material, and it has served me well.

If you bought your Tormach to use it as a high speed production machine, you obviously bought the wrong machine. Sell your Tormach before you destroy it and buy a Haas, or some other brand. I read somewhere about 6 months ago that FADAL is back.

[philbur]

Yes but that application was designed by somebody who understood the engineering. The addition was on the out side, big, big difference. Read up second moment of area and also the difference between designing for strength and designing for rigidity.

Phil

[R.DesJardin]

This will be interesting, but in my opinion I think 5hp is a bit much for the PCNC1100 frame size. If you are into modifying stuff you never have enough of anything and the project never ends. This is from by experience in the racing realm. There is no substitute for cubic inches/hp but you have to beef up everything else to compensate. Be careful how far you go. Carry on..........

[johnh]

will do, thanks.
some delayed responses

Yeah, great input everyone, THANKS!! I'll look into those links. I love having my brain storms validated by the other ground breakers!! yeah! I'm pumped.

The shop I recently left (today as a mater of fact) makes parts for the new mini FADAL and I was in inspection and handled them personally. To small of a machine for the $$$ compared to the TORMACH in my opinion.

Damping was the main goal of the cavity fill, some stiffness will come of its own but more likely from helping keep the iron shell more stable and therefore use its own strength in compression better. That is the applicable theory and it can't hurt and only help. The spindle carrier casting I might actually fill with expoy/lead shot, mass is the greatest detriment to accelerations IE bad vibes that start at the cutter and work their way through the machine.

and No, the sky is not falling and I'm under no delusion that this will be a high speed machining center The TORMACH was designed perfectly for what it is, a great all around machine for the beginner/hobbyest that they can't break. If you can't break it you don't have to warranty it. Business 101 That being said any machine like that will have reserves necessarily designed in just for that reason, I'm just going to exploit whatever Greg and his crew put in it. If anything my ways will see some premature wear if I don't stay up on adjustment but thats probably it in my estimation. The second point of failure would only be loosing steps because the steppers are working to hard, easy to find out, another reason why to upgrade to the Leadshine hybids as I wrote before. The the spindle bearings, another stressed area, so what, replace bearings more often? I've done 2 sets in 8 years?

Hey, question for you guys. What exactly does "destroy" your machine mean anyway??????

jh

[johnh]

Oh, funny saying in the shop about FADAL's, its an acronym for

F__k all dimensions and locations

So we only really use them to put the dovetails on the raw stock for the real money makers like the Matsura's, Toyoda's and Hitachi's

Real life experience

jh

[johnh]

This will be interesting, but in my opinion I think 5hp is a bit much for the PCNC1100 frame size. If you are into modifying stuff you never have enough of anything and the project never ends. This is from by experience in the racing realm. There is no substitute for cubic inches/hp but you have to beef up everything else to compensate. Be careful how far you go. Carry on..........

Exactly, I agree, hence the Blown alcohol Hemi in a Willies!

So why not

Oh, cause maybe I'll destroy the machine? LOL

jh

[G59]

In my engineering experience, machine tools have a safety factor of 2.5 times built in. You on the other hand are reaching for 3.3 times. Destroy the machine? It all depends who you talk to. Myself, I couldn't care less, but I'm interested in how far you can push this Tormach envelope.
So I'm not discouraging you in any way.
If high performance is what your doing, well don't stop at just more power, get some linear speed happening too.
Like you said, it's paid for, so more power to you.

[mountaindew]

The spindle carrier casting I might actually fill with expoy/lead shot, mass is the greatest detriment to accelerations IE bad vibes that start at the cutter and work their way through the machine.


jh

Stepper drive up there runs pretty warm stock! Are you thinking counter balance to offset added weight or different motor?
I have day dreamed about adding some sort of cooling to it like a heat sink with fans or water cooling like my cpu has.

"destroy"

In my experience tools of any type are damaged or destroyed more by lack of care then anything. Keeping equipment properly lubricated, clean, adjusted and maintained goes a long way to mitigate problems.
Also in my opinion more power is not a problem if it is used or applied with knowledge, skill and finesse. If you abuse something its abused if its used properly then it will perform as desired for a long time. My jeep comment applies here! If you drive one off road like a fool your going to break or damage it in a short period of time. If you drive with skill and finesse using the power where needed One can go years with no problems.

Fun thread to follow
Keep us posted on progress!
md

[johnh]

\
In my experience tools of any type are damaged or destroyed more by lack of care then anything. Keeping equipment properly lubricated, clean, adjusted and maintained goes a long way to mitigate problems.
Also in my opinion more power is not a problem if it is used or applied with knowledge, skill and finesse. If you abuse something its abused if its used properly then it will perform as desired for a long time. My jeep comment applies here! If you drive one off road like a fool your going to break or damage it in a short period of time. If you drive with skill and finesse using the power where needed One can go years with no problems.

Fun thread to follow
Keep us posted on progress!
md

That's the spirit, I totally concur, trying to pound out big steel chips using all the power available at lower rpm's would probably abuse it

In my engineering experience, machine tools have a safety factor of 2.5 times built in. You on the other hand are reaching for 3.3 times. Destroy the machine? It all depends who you talk to. Myself, I couldn't care less, but I'm interested in how far you can push this Tormach envelope.
So I'm not discouraging you in any way.
If high performance is what your doing, well don't stop at just more power, get some linear speed happening too.
Like you said, it's paid for, so more power to you.

As Mountiandew said, it's all in how it will be applied, Maybe no pun intended but I'll take it as one gladly

The one thing slowing me down a bit is engineering two different concepts to work with the new motor setup. I'll be modifying my current spindle to BT30, have to rough it out first then send it to the grinders for finish, it will include a power drawbar detail for an ATC later.

Attachment 272260

the other is using the same PCNC spindle cartridge design as a 5C collet so I can swap out the BTt30 spindle cartridge turning it into a vertical chucker with a power collet closer, I'm debating the inclusion of small three jaw chuck nose
The concept is to loosen the motor, slip the belt off, pull the 6 allens and the whole cartridge pulley and all drops out, then pop in the other one, a 15 minute affair. The motor move and belt is easy its the re-adapting the power drawbar cylinder between uses so I can drop in the longest unsupported piece of stock as possible

I've designed many machines for this company so I have more than a monkey wrench and a pencil at my disposal Automated Applications Inc if anyone cares to peruse

Attachment 272262

[tmarks11]

I've designed many machines for this company so I have more than a monkey wrench and a pencil at my disposal Automated Applications Inc if anyone cares to peruse

awesome website.

[G59]

Well, John, I see where this thread is going, and I'm totally disappointed.
Basically, what you are saying by agreeing with mountaindew is, you are fitting a 5hp motor on a PCNC1100 just to see if the motor physically fits and have bragging rights.
You are not interested in ever coming close to using the full potential of the motor for fear of "abusing it".
Now this thread makes sense.

As for the analogy of the off road vehicle, you didn't think too long about that one now did you?
Off roading is full of surprises even if you're at crawling speeds, you can get into trouble. For example a pothole covered over with water. How deep is it?

Cool idea on the interchangeable spindle.

In any case this is your project, and I'll just sit back and hold my thoughts, have fun.

[mountaindew]

Off roading is full of surprises even if you're at crawling speeds, you can get into trouble. For example a pothole covered over with water. How deep is it?

.

Easy, in Colorado the water is always moving downhill if its deep . We have what is called a designated water shed and its steep one.

+1 on the website and some of your work! Lots of spiffy looking stuff on that site!
md

[tmarks11]

...you are fitting a 5hp motor on a PCNC1100 just to see if the motor physically fits and have bragging rights. You are not interested in ever coming close to using the full potential of the motor for fear of "abusing it".

That is not how I would read it.

Heavy hogging with a facemill in an interrupted cut would pound the mill to pieces if he used 5 hp.

Continuous cut with an endmill = open it up and see how much of 5 hp you can use.

There are some other threads here on the zone where someone was working on a home-brew BT30 spindle adaption... might want to mine that thread for information.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/vertic...ing-forum.html

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Why modify a spindle for BT30 when you can buy one from Tormach for next to nothing?

Regards,
Ray L.

[johnh]

That is not how I would read it.

Heavy hogging with a facemill in an interrupted cut would pound the mill to pieces if he used 5 hp.

Continuous cut with an endmill = open it up and see how much of 5 hp you can use.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/vertic...ing-forum.html

Yes, tmarks11 understands the concept and the limitations, this is exactly the issue of when to use the HP and when not to. Any machinist that started out in the manual dept would know when the machine doesn't sound happy

But I must set a limit of the scope of the project or I'll bury myself in it. But mainly more HP is the spirit of this thread first and foremost.


Bragging? maybe if I was 19!

I just want to share the joy because I can, and receive intelligent feedback along the way. And the forum hasn't let me down yet!


jh

[johnh]

Why modify a spindle for BT30 when you can buy one from Tormach for next to nothing?

Regards,
Ray L.

If I delay the 5C spindle concept its cheaper to modify mine because I have to replace the bearings right now anyway. I'll do the roughing here and send it to the grinder for $100? to finish the taper. When I've inspected his stuff it would runout 10 millions or less, sometime the indicator wouldn't even flicker!

[CNCCookbook]

John, good for you, looks like an interesting project. I have a new Tormach PCNC 1100 as well as a Tormach BT-30 spindle and eventually those two will get together for some fun! :banana:

Meanwhile, I thought I'd share a couple of thoughts.

First, the epoxy granite fill. As you know, I did one on my IH mill and have been pleased with the results. The dampening effect is very strong. With that said, I don't know if it is worth it unless you have the mill apart for another reason, or unless you're having a lot of trouble with chatter or surface finish. And as was mentioned, it won't add a lot of rigidity. I think if I was going to tear down enough to do an epoxy granite fill I would look at some external rigidity enhancements. With all that said, it's probably not worth that much trouble. At some point it's cheaper and easier to just get a better machine, unless of course your real interest is in building the darned things. Not a bad interest at that and I'd be the pot calling the kettle black if I discouraged you much from it.

Second, on the VFD, consider the issue of whether you want a VFD that will park with the same spindle orientation. The obvious requirement for this is matching the "ears" on a toolholder. While it is the obvious requirement, many of these tapers can be run without ears and they're detachable on the Tormach spindle, so you could dispense with them. The other reason to do it is that it ups the accuracy of your machine when you can count on the toolholders being registered in the same way to the spindle each time. The result is that the runout of an individual holder is at least repeatable. In addition, if you are so inclined, you can "clock" you tools and toolholders to the spindle to minimize the runout.

The trick is in finding an inexpensive VFD that has the parking option. For this and the insights about why you want to park for accuracy, I have Dave DeCaussin to thank. He likes Delta VFD's for this reason, and I purchased one along with a 5HP motor that were intended for my IH + BT30. There is more on my web site here:

CNC Cookbook: Mill Belt Drive, Pt 1

As I mention, there's a shiny new Tormach in the shop, so somewhere down the line, they may just wind up on that machine.

Cheers,

BW