[JerryFlyGuy]

Not sure if this is the proper forum.. anyway.. We've started to look at getting a water jet here at work. We've got a rough quote from one supplier but we're looking for user feed-back. Anyone on here want to offer their experiance [good and/or bad] w/ Water Jet suppliers, make's, model's, Software? Any "got-ya's" to look at or watch for when looking at these unit's?

I've looked at Flow's website and they look like they have a decent product but.. who's to know when just looking at a website.

We're looking to primarily do stainless from the gauge level's right up through 3". Most likely a 5x10 table, we'd be looking for a complete package including auto nesting software and machine control.

As always.. opinons and experiances welcome!

Jerry

[ah_wings19]

I have A couple of flow machines my self. i find flow to be one of the best out there. great software good machine. probably the # 1 with the most machines out there. the only problem with flow is the price there are one of the most expensive machines. if you want the best go with flow

[dragoneye]

I found the best way to guage which one to buy was to stike a deal with the supplier to set up a ongoing warantee policy where you pay a set amount per year, maybe payable monthly for them to totally service their machine,i had a spare pump for the intensefyer and a complete set of stainless steel hoses made up which were then replaced as they wore out which seemed to be all the time.another factor i put in was to buy one as local as i could as i could because you get to see more of the service engineers than your family,I purchased mine from powerjet in the uk as they also made every componant from the ground up of the machine, at the time i paid 65,000 sterling when the nearest on price was mid 100.000 for the same spec and as all i herd was that all water jet cutters were very high maintenace and i did not hear one positive note on anysupplier this was the route i took and was glad of it, i have owned a few cnc machines in my time and i stuck with this princeable and saved a fortune overs the years on downtime, oh i forgot to mention that i purchased two of all machines so one would always work, this enables you not to let your customers down and also stops them looking for another supply this worked for me and i hope this is some use to you.

Best of luck

[JerryFlyGuy]

Thanks guy's! We're looking at a waterjet simply to help us do 1 'inhouse' product. It's like 95% stainless [ lots of it over 1/2"] so it seemed the route to take. Can anyone offer a rough guess as to the cost for a waterjet to cut compared to a plazma or laser? Ei: Laser cots $2.00/inch on 1/4" m.s. pl- would a waterjet be 100% more than a laser [ or $4.00/inch] ? I don't need actual dollar amounts.. but a rough comparison between the more conventional cutting equipment compared to a water jet. I've been told its horrendously expensive and to stay away from it at all costs... I wasn't convinced this was entirely correct. [ think this was more of a personal opinion or experiance.. I don't know the fella that well]. Even better would be a rough guess between mild steel as well as a comparitor between stainless and possibly aluminum.

Anyone want to offer a rough idea as to how many peirce's you'd get per gem/tip? Can you recommend going w/ Diamond tip's over a typical saphire tip? Any other 'got-ya's' that came up once you got the machine up and running? [ Found out that you have to replace some hoses regularly[as was mentioned] or that the nesting took way longer than advertised or that it wouldn't cut as fast as claimed etc.. etc..]

Who are the 'better' suppliers to look at in North America [ possibly Canada?] Flow, Omax...???

Who should a person stay away from?

Thanks again!
Jerry

[Geof]

I assume it is the pointy headed types in the office who are making the decision (maybe I shouldn't be so nasty)? Why start by focussing on water jet; actually abrasive water jet to be picky because that is what is needed for metals. I get some parts cut by laser but have never had anything cut by water jet partly because the price was around 5 times higher. However, I have no idea if this was a valid quote or something quoted high just to get rid of an order too small to worry about.

My understanding of the use of abrasive water jet is that this is what you use because nothing else is suitable. Stainless is easy to cut with plasma but you do get a heat affected zone, the cut edge is not very clean and the tolerance is probably not better than +/-0.03" or somewhere around that. Laser will cut stainless quite easily and the heat affected zone is much less, the finish can be very nice when the correct gas is used and the tolerance can be around +/-0.005". Abrasive water jet will cut stainless but slower than either of the others, much slower with thick material; there is no heat affected zone, the finish is very nice and the tolerance is maybe not as good as laser but certainly better than plasma. The big advantage to water jet is that it can cut materials that either cannot be cut, or not easily cut, by plasma or laser: Such as ceramic, glass, fully hard alloy steels, highly reflective materials, materials with high thermal conductivity. If the only application will be cutting steel, stainless or otherwise, I think abrasive water jet should be way down on the list of possible methods.

[JerryFlyGuy]

The pointy headed types.. I like that ..

The focus came over to a WJ because of the thickness of the stainless, we've looking at lots of 1/4" [ can be done on a laser] but also 3/8" [ not too great on laser due to cost and way more N2 use] as well as 1/2" through 1 1/2" [even some 3"] all of which is either at or beyond the limit of my contracted laser cutters. Plasma isn't even an option as we need to be able to get precise holes as well as etched notes and lines. I talked to my main laser cutter and his recommendation was to send it to a competitor.. who own's a WJ. He actually told me that they sub let 95% of their stainless job's to these guys and only cut stuff under 1/4" at their shop. His claim was that 1/4" and over just isn't competitive w/ the need for N2 and the slower cutting speed. All of his machines are able to cut up to 1" m.s. [ I don't know what the wattage would be].

This new project is huge.. [at a guess it's over 10,000 lb's of stainless per unit] and the unit's #'s are in the double digits, so in-house processing for just this product is very much a need. I can't be having W.I.P. 4 days out due to conflict's w/ my contracted cutters [shipping and other lead time issues], I need to be able to stop flow immediatly and fix issues, esp thru the first few unit's until we get it all down patt. The lead times on these things are basically nill so.. control of as many step's as are possible is very important. However, the bottom line is it has to be cost effective when looked at as a whole.. so.. this is why I'm asking all the questions

Hopefully that puts a bit more light on the issue's.

Jerry

[Geof]

To quote myself: "My understanding of the use of abrasive water jet is that this is what you use because nothing else is suitable." Obviously your application falls into this category.

I think you need to convince the PHTs that you have to visit places that use water jets to get information. They are not cheap to buy, not cheap to run and they need operators who know what they are doing. A small percentage of the planned expenditure applied to getting good solid first hand information by visits to suppliers and users is a very sensible idea.

[Tig]

Hi Jerry,
If you are thinking about waterjeting, You might want to take a look at the WJTA (The WaterJet Technology Association) web site: http://www.wjta.org/. This is a valuable resource, and well worth a membership. You will have access to knowledgeable practitioners that can advise as to the pros and cons of the various systems available.
You might consider initially out sourcing the work. I would strongly recommend you at least get quotes from south of the border (US). They have a lot of machines, and definitely have a cando attitude.
Tig

[InspirationTool]

Hi Jerry! I don't have a waterjet, but I do get alot of work done by both waterjet and laser.

In general, for sheet stock, laser is cheaper and I'd say better. But, as you say, you are working with thick stock.

Waterjets tend to be finicky with thier maintenance. They breakdown, and depending upon nozzle, garnet quality, and programming, they start cutting where they shouldn't and not cut where they should. Just expect a learning curve. I scrap alot more waterjet parts than laser parts.

Depending upon your tolerances, make sure you check out an active tilting head to subtract the taper on the waste side.

Make sure you hear one in operation. I couldn't believe how much louder the Flow was than the Omax at a trade show.

Check out this group: http://www.waterjets.org/

Also, take a gander at my 2D CNC page:

http://www.jeffalbro.net/cnc/2d-comparison/

-Jeff

[Ron22]

My opion on FLow software is that it is great for Job shops and amatures (like american chopper)
If you are running production and the same job and want to optomize your program Flows software is not so great.
Basicly it is load the file or drawing and push the button. The software will pick the "best" settings. For more prodution and control you may want to use a G&M based controler and a CAD/CAM program.
I know of a few poeple with Flow machine that have converted to different software.
Like othes have said check out The WaterJet Technology Association
The machines I have seen and used are
Jet Edge Ok machine Ok price
Par System Ok machine Very expensive
Flow Ok machine but expensive
Technicut Cheap machine with steppers motors not

[JerryFlyGuy]

Thanks for all the info guy's, I've done some reading on the waterjets.org site in the past and will have to go back there and take a refresher course. I've also joined the Yahoo waterjet weblist but as of yet haven't seen much action on that front. I do know of two water jet companies w/in 200miles which I will probably go visit in the near future sometime. If I have more question's I'll post em... til then!

Jerry [anyone who wants to add something feel freee ]

[JerryFlyGuy]

Ok guy's moving along. My higher up's [ what Geof call's the PHT's -- they're really not that bad .. really.. ] are looking at a Calypso water jet, the 'Hammer-Head' in particular. Anyone had any experiance w/ these guy's? Service, machine quailty? Where does it rate in relation to say a Omax or Flow?

Thanks guy's

Jerry

[yellerrado]

we use a large flow abrasive machine at our shop. seems like a really nice machine but the intensifier pump keeps needing a rebuild. not sure if this is common to everyone else but i know the hydraulic cylinder that increases the pressure to 60k psi starts to leak and the pump cycles really fast trying to keep pressure and eventually can not hold the 60k psi it should be making. this thing will cut some serious material though we do like 4" thick sheets of aluminum

[gman]

We only looked at Flow and Omax and found both machines to be comprable. When speaking to both sales rep before making the final decision I ask both for their final numbers. Omax came back with some lower pricing but Flow said that we have their best numbers. Signed the deal with Omax, Flow called see if they had the sale but informed them I went with Omax. Five minutes later they called back with $20,000 less and better financing. Still went with Omax--at that point I felt I was dealing with a car dealership--not one of my favorite things.

Gary