[Imaginer]

Background:

I bought my K2CNC machine, a KG4925HD with the 12 inches z-axis

upgrade, ELTE tool changer spindle, four axis servo motor

control, and it came with the Kmotion software and the driver

installed in the Dell Venue 11 Pro I was controlling with at the
time was the KFLOP motion control driver 4.xx. Everything was
operating then, save for the very shaky z-axis that now is

corrected with moving the bracket to taut the belt (as of today).


But since then, I have not been provided the last item on my

invoice, which is a dust hood for the ELTE spindle. But that is a

small issue on top of another I have as of today. See, I have a

spare Surface Pro 1 that I installed the KFLOP driver and
installed the Kmotion 4.32 software and the gantry and controls

run fine and I am able to send G-code files. The reason for the

change of PCs was that the Dell Venue 11 Pro that I have wouldn't
charge reliably or be operational when plugged in with the micro

USB cord, it more than often wouldn't charge or have power

because of the shoddy micro USB plug. But the PC issues have been

resolved.


Problem:

Now? I can no longer get any spindle commands to recognize to the

ELTE spindle. Using the jog function of the Delta power supply

that powers the 3HP ELTE tool changing spindle does have the

spindle spin. In the past when I first received the machine, the

spindle and fan would spin. Now, I can't get them to function,

all other servo motors work fine in receiving commands.


Besides finding out that my support inquiries and invoice

inquiries are no longer being accepted and to find that K2CNC is

defunct and did not provide my dust shoud for the ELTE spindle, I

wish to at least have my ELTE spindle be recognized again or to

solve why I am not able to get commands to the spindle. I am

using Kmotion's software and the KFLOP driver from Dynamotion's

site that I found an installer for my Surface Pro and got the

drivers to work by entering a state for Windows 8.1 Pro that I

can install unsigned drivers.

The Dell Venue 11 Pro, I tested and tried to see if the spindle

can be operational (have not changed any software settings or

driver settings since I got it from K2CNC) and the same result

happens. I can get the gantry to move but the spindle and

anything dealing with the ELTE spindle would not function.

I found this site after searching for some possible solutions. I

hope someone can give me some information so I can be well on my

way. I have plenty of code to execute and am ready to have my
machine working again.

TL-DR

Gantry commands, servo motors work for K2 machine. ELTE spindle

is not receiving commands. Controller problem? Can I swap boards?

What do I need to look for?

[bhurts]

You need to move the appropriate c programs to the new computer as well. As long as everything is still wired the same and only the pc has changed then you are most likely just missing some of the setup files. Are you using the same initialization file as was on the old pc? Did you look at the tool setup pages in the old pc to see what files were linked with m3 m5 etc? Most importantly do you still have the old pc to get this info and files from?

Ben

[Imaginer]

You need to move the appropriate c programs to the new computer as well.

I have, After installation, I copied the folders over and overwritten the files of the installation of the new PC. When I hooked the old PC to verify if things are still working, the spindle won't spin nor would the fan would come on upon powering the controller box as it did in the past.

[TomKerekes]

Hi Imaginer,

I have found that K2CNC typically Flashed a User C Program into KFLOP that would be launched on Startup (power up). Without executing that program some things would not function.

You didn't explain clearly if you flashed "New Version" into KFLOP when you installed the new KMotion Version. If so you would have lost any User program Flashed into KFLOP.

You would most likely need to locate that program, load it into a C Program Thread using KMotion.exe and execute it.

You might also read this post and Thread:
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/k2cnc/...ml#post1705864

HTH
Regards

[Imaginer]

The software isn't the problem as I typed, the last time the spindle worked is when I was using the Dell Venue 11 Pro PC and when I turned on the controller box, the fan of the ELTE spindle would spin up, readied to cool the spindle.

Both the Surface Pro and the Dell Venue 11 Pro (when I had gave it enough charge) ran the gantry code fine, it is just that now I can no longer seem to get the spindle to work. The gantry would move the spindle correctly to tool change and to the various positions. But before, it would also run the spindle code too (on the Dell). Now on the Dell (did not change or recompiled or flashed with the Dell) it wouldn't work with the spindle, just the gantry as well.

I am sure it is a hardware issue. Not a spindle issue (that I am aware of) as with the Delta VFD-B power supply for the ELTE spindle I can jog the spindle and it would spin. Again, when I turned the controller box on in the past, the fan would spin of the ELTE spindle.

My installed software is the Kmotion 4.32. The driver installed is the KFLOP motion driver 4.xx and I did recompile the given code (K2CNC's version 2.0.4) and reflashed with the K2MC_driver.c file. But it still did not make a difference in making the spindle operational with the gantry, just the gantry operating as it should and not spinning up the spindle or the spindle's fan as it should. I also copied over directory for directory all the old files from the Dell to the Surface Pro and overwritten the files after I installed Kmotion 4.32 on the Surface Pro.

I measured the voltage at the positive terminal at the connector for the Spindle, the red wires that lead to the FAN and SP-FWD. I also changed the spindle speed via Kmotion and that affected the voltage read at the SP-SPEED lead of the Spindle connector. I am getting a 7mV for the FAN and SP-FWD lead. I also verified that I am getting voltage changes on the RS232 connector while running one of the test G-code that came with the machine. All the other axis for their respective leads do measure positive voltage too.

The box where the 250V power supply leads to and the RS232 connector, I observed none of the three LEDs of the ELTE spindle board on during the entire run of the test cut code that I ran that came with the Dell Venue, now ran on my Surface Pro.

[Imaginer]

I did some further voltage probing on the ELTE board at the spindle, and I am not reading any voltage at any points on the board. I wonder if it is indeed a power supply issue.

[CNC-repair]

retrofit your machine we can make it actually work check out our site cncrepair.us there is a video of an ELTE spindle tool change machine that actually changes tools after our retrofit we use your motors replace that horrible k2 driver hardware with our controller that uses gecko 320x drivers and encoders that work

https://youtu.be/VarNTxiKJqE

[CNCMAN172]

Imaginer,

My recommendation would be to check the setting in your VFD and temporarily enable front panel control. This would allow you to start the spindle manually and ensure the VFD is still working with the spindle. That spindle has a fan to ensure the coils in the spindle motor do not get too hot so never run the spindle if that fan is not spinning. You could have a voltage supply issue to the VFD check that first before you do anything else. If that is there change the parameter in the VFD to allow front panel control and ensure that all works.

I disagree with CNC-repair the KFLOP system is not a horrible system at all. I have been doing CNC for over 15 years and have the KFLOP system myself and it is a very good controller. Their CNC software KMOTIONCNC does exactly what you ask it to do and never does crazy unexpected things like the MACH3 software. The KFLOP is a complex system and you must have all the correct C programs loaded to ensure everything works correctly. TK responded and asked if you had upgrade the KMOTION software and flashed your KFLOP. He also said K2CNC flashed their own special program in the KFLOP, not a practice that is recommended but the situation you have. If you just moved the application to the new PC and did not upgrade the software you have another option. Ensure the version of KMOTIONCNC you are using matches the firmware version flashed in the KFLOP. They need to be the same. If you have not flashed your KFLOP with a new version you should actually save the special C program that K2CNC installed on that machine. There are lots of people on CNCzone, especially TK from Kmotion who can help you get this working again.

Russ

[Imaginer]

Thank you Russ. Actually, I plan on checking the voltages, after reading in the manual of their flow chart that it could be not functioning as intended due to noise. The manual is complex for a variety of settings, so if anyone can sum up to where I need to change the Prog settings to enable manual control from the PU-01 keypad of the Delta VFD-B I would appreciate it.

And I do not need a retrofit. As I said before, the gantry and servo motors run as expected along with the tool change positioning operations. It is just the ELTE spindle and fan that isn't operational and the fan should be on upon turning on the K2CNC's controller box. I haven't upgraded any software or firmware and copied directory to directory, one to one, after install of the matching Kmotion software and drivers of the old PC to the new PC.

Attached is the wiring configuration of the VFD-B.

[CNCMAN172]

Imaginer,
The green connector at the top of the VFD is where the speed command comes into the VFD. Measure the voltage between AUI and ACM when the drive is being requested to spin at any given RPM. There should be a voltage between +- 10VDC, th is is the analog voltage. The RPM is proportional to the voltage input. In your VFD it appears to be wired for only forward direction so a simple gcode command like M3 S8000 on the console of KMOTION should start moving the spindle if the relay works and you have a voltage between those two wires.

You did not provide the complete VFD part number, but it would appear you have three wires coming into the VFD under L1,L2,L3 the incoming voltage not on the motor output leads. Check to make sure you have a voltage between L1/L2 & L2/L3 & L1&L3 this would indicate you have three phase power entering the VFD. This voltage should match what this particular model expects 220VAC some are 380VAC, etc. Look at the label on the VFD and if this is not printed look in the manual for your model number and you will find the input voltage required.

The factory setting of the operation source is from the keypad (Pr.02-01=00). Make sure you write down what is in these parameters before you change them.

Look in the VFD-B manual and look at section 3.2 Operation Method, and Section 3.3 Trial Run. If you have those parameters set correctly you should be able to get the VFD to spin the motor from the keypad as described.

For parameter changes look in Group 2 "Operations Method Parameters"
02-00 Source of First Master Frequency Command, 00 assigns this to the digital keypad

02-01 Source of First Operations Command, 00 assigns this to digital keypad

You might want to walk down all the parameters and build a small excel file and record the current settings.

Let me know if you have more questions, but with just a little troubleshooting you will be able to isolate this issue.

Hope this helps

Russ

[Imaginer]

I measured 1mV for FWD DCM with the K2MC box on, 2.39V for when S=1 and 1.22V when S=.5 in Kmotion.

I have the proper incoming voltage, I am using a single phase 240V to the VFD-B. Model is VFD022B21A. I measured 240V at L2 and L3.

I checked the Pr.02-01 which is set at external terminals with keypad input 01. I temporarily set that to 00 and changed the frequency to 60Hz per test run instruction. The spindle does spin, but the spindle's fan doesn't turn on. I am able to run and stop the spindle with the keypad in this mode.

I tried running the M3 G-code command but I can't get the spindle to operate.

Am I missing something? I wonder if I accidentally changed a mode somewhere?

Also within the events.h file the SetBit(pSpindleFan) is invoked under a if statement check of the push button switch that I hold to turn on the K2MC box, holding it down for a half second. The fan of the spindle turns on with turning on the K2MC box. The connection to the spindle from the box where I measured the FAN and SP-FWD red lead measures -10mV with the box on.

[CNCMAN172]

Imaginer,

You are setting the S value far to low. Normally when in Kmotion CNC you would execute a command like M3 S6000, which would turn on the motor in the forward direction and rotate the spindle at 6000 RPM. The S value on most spindles ranges from 6000 - 25000 the upper end is very dependent on the given spindle. The spindles will run slower but normally this is not recommended as there is not enough hair moving through the motor coil to keep it from overheating and destroying the spindle. In your case it sounds like you have a separate fan inside the spindle controlled by another power source, since you can make the spindle spin that is a very good sign. You might have a bad fan motor or the control that turns on the spindle fan might not be working. Please provide some close up pictures and the exact model of your spindle.

The direction signal FWD is normally shorted out to the DCM by a relay when the spindle has been requested to move forward by the "M3" command. You would check to see if those are connected by using a multimeter set to ohms it should be close to zero ohms when operated. I must be closing or the spindle would not rotate.

Just finished reading your post, it sounds like you have something missing in one of your C programs. The SetBit(pSpindleFan sounds like something that should be in the C program that turns on the spindle and this would ensure that fan is running when the spindle is requested to be turned on. Do you have copies of the C programs running in KFLOP, that would be helpful. I am not familar with the K2MC box provide a picture of that as well. Thanks

Russ

[Imaginer]

I apologize. The S I was referring to is the percentage I believe. I had it at 1 on the vertical slider and set it to .5 for the two respective settings. I entered M3 S8000 which did nothing.

Here is the back of the K2MC box. The two red led for the right most node on the spindle lead to SP-FWD and FAN. SP-SPEED is the second left node on the connector. Since there is two leads and one dedicated for the fan, I assume that it is a signal switch to turn on the fan and the fan is being powered by the VFD, as according to the ELTE spindle manual, the fan is supposed to be supplied by a 24VDC but I am not measuring it at all front that node


Here is the ELTE spindle placard.


This is the board inside the circuit box of the ELTE spindle. During the time I ran one of K2CNC's test G-code, I did not observe any of the three LEDs turn on in running.


Here is an overall inside of the VFD-B. I believe the relay you are referring to is the heat shrunk bulge leading to the FWD node correct?


Also I have attached all that is my C:\KFLOP folder. It is in the same path as the previous PC and I have not made any edits. The function I was referring to is in the events.h file.

One thing I left out in mention that I am not sure if it is relevant, is that I replaced the fuse twice with the K2MC box. Could it have done something with the flashed program even though it is operational (save the spindle) and I have not noticed any damage at all?

[CNCMAN172]

Imaginer,
Based on your previous responses it would appear to me your are using KmotionCNC, the spindle RPM slider was a give away. It is very important that once you start up KmotionCNC you press the button that says something like initialize in the bottom lower left side of the screen. If you do not press this button before you start running tests the KFLOP will not be initialized correctly. There are C programs that initialize the machine in the zip file you sent. Make sure you did not forget this step. After you do this the buttons on the KmotionCNC screen to turn on the spindle and control the RPMs should work. The only other issue might be the fact you no longer have the C programs listed inside of each thread. First do that test for me as it might be the answer to many of your issues.

Second
K2_M3.c
This setbit command is what turns on the relay to activate the motor in the forward direction.
SetBit(pSpindleFWD);

K2_M5.c
This clearbit is what turns off the relay to turn off the spindle moto.r

ClearBit(pSpindleFWD);

Very simple explanation for the Spindle it requires two things to happen to rotate. First you have to have a speed input on the analog inputs and second the relay needs to close to short out the FWD input to the DCM connection. Yes, it would appear they put the relay in the black heat shrink tube based on the photos you sent. We can dig deeper if the initialization does not fix the issues. My guess is that is why the spindle fan was not be activated as well. I can dig deep after you do this test.

Russ

[Imaginer]

There is an INIT button and with it in the tool setup menus, that is associated with the user set INIT button. I have pressed this in the past before homing the machine with HOME button that is set by K2CNC but still it did not solve the issue. I did a command input of the M3 S8000 this time and the spindle nor spindle fan would turn on. However I measured FWD DCM to be at 21.5V and at SP-SPEED at 3.8V along with AUI ACM indicating that the spindle speed is indeed sent to the VFD.

At SP-FAN/SP-FWD, it still measured -10mV.

Would there be a bit stuck somewhere that needs to be cleared that can't be cleared in a normal manner? I used the GUI's off button in the spindle area but I still measured the same voltages at the VFD after I used that off button. Maybe not, the spindle does work, but I am guessing that the fan must be working for the spindle to fully turn on via controller?

This is what the settings for the INIT button is set to, and it is indeed set to the k2_init.c file.



Edit:

I measured the voltages of when I sent the spindle command at the green terminals on the ELTE board and with it on, I measured varying voltages across the green terminal nodes. With the sent off command, I measured 0V through those same terminal nodes. However, as I left the spindle command on, the voltages dropped to where any node I measure would be at 0V versus initially where I measured ~11mV before it eventually dropped to 0 for one of the green terminal nodes on the spindle's circuit board.

Edit 2:

I apologize, I was picking the wrong solid ground for my voltmeter. At the brown middle wire of the green terminals on the spindle's circuit board, I measured a solid 90mV to 100mV to .15V. The left blue wire of the green terminals measured ~-52mV along with the middle blue wire. The white wire of the right measured -28mV. This is regardless if I invoke the off or on command, I am not sure if this is relevant along with the board's LEDs not being on.

Edit 3:

When I press the side green button on the side of the spindle (the button responsible for releasing air inside of the collet housing) the voltages do change at these terminals a bit. Otherwise, the blue wires measure ~-30mV, the brown ~0.15V, and the two blacks -35mV and 2mV. The white wire measured 4mV all with the command M3 S8000. This leads me to believe that the signal is reaching up to the spindle. I am not sure if it is the correct signal though. No fan spindle movement, no movement of the spindle.

[CNCMAN172]

Imaginer,

I have looked at the C files provided. The relay that turns the spindle on forward is bit 34. The defines.h file shows you that the relay that enables the Spindle Fan is bit 13. You could go into kmotion.exe and go to the IO page and toggle bit 13 and based on what I can tell that fan would start running. The interesting things is they did not include the setbit command in the M3.c file that would turn on the bit. In fact I could not find any of the C files that turned on the Fan bit, unless I overlooked something. Go ahead and start up kmotionCNC, and then also start kmotion.exe. You want to do the init button and then go to the kmotion.exe screen and do to the IO page and toggle bit 13 and see if the fan turns on. If this does then the fix to get this to work will be very easy. You will just add the command setbit(13); to the M3.c file and recompile and then download the file to kflop. Give this a test in kmotion before compiling and downloading. It also looks like the init file was recompiled on 6/17 because there are two k2_init(2).out files the first one is k2_init(1).out look in your directory. This indicates the original file and one compiled two days ago.

Russ

[Imaginer]

I have went into the I/O panel and noticed that when I turned on the box normally from the emergency reset knob box that included the green button that I hold down to start the K2MC box, the bit 13 does turn on. Using the knob reset and then turning the box on (making the yellow status to green in KmotionCNC) would flip the bit off and then the usual on. Flipping it made no difference in me hearing the fan or seeing the fan turn on. I think I may need to take the fan out and see what is wrong with it.

Would that stop any spindle action if the spindle fan isn't operational? I think yes if I have looked at the limited English of the ELTE manual right.

Bits 26 to 30 however show a blinking state.

[bhurts]

Does the fan have its own relay? I know on Fanuc and other controls the fan and spindle have contacters to start them. If the fan does not come on the spindle will not start.

Ben

[CNCMAN172]

Take a picture of the inside of the K2 box that contains the KFLOP. It appears from the C code that bit 13 turns on a relay and based on your previous post the fan was supposed to be 24V. You can check when the relay click if you are getting 24V to the fan. This should be pretty easy to trace.

Russ

[Imaginer]

Here is the inside of the K2MC box.
Attachment 284062
Attachment 284064
Attachment 284066
Attachment 284068

Now here is where I am a bit confused to where else to diagnose, without separating the boards individually. Though I may have to and find the point.