[dharmic]

I had mid-job stalling issues (after 5 hours or so) and I didn't trust the electrical isolation of USB but I also wanted more I/Os to add a laser. The stall issue ended up being fixed when the ethernet module was in shipping by grounding the machine frame. But that little ethernet unit has been mint, a lot smoother than the YongNuo USB breakout that came with my machine. It doesn't work on its own, it needs a breakout board - but the $5 ones on eBay work fine.

Thing with linear rails is that they're supported the whole length, as opposed to curtain rods which are only supported at the end. The carriages are also a lot stiffer in rotation than the curtain rod sliders.

Never had a problem with over heating, that said I've never run the spindle at anything near full load. I've stalled it many times with over aggressive feed rates but that's with bigger bits and lower RPM.

No Mach3 required for the orange box or GRBL. In your workflow you typically have CAD, CAM, Post-processing and machine control.

CAD - draw the things. Inkscape for 2d, FreeCAD, Fusion, Solidworks etc etc etc for 3D
CAM - work out the tool paths. There's a plugin for Inkscape. Fusion, SolidCAM, HSMWorks, etc etc etc.
Post - convert the CAM to machine specific instructions eg G-code. Usually bundled with the CAM in some crappy esoteric programming language so you grab the closest post out of their library and tailor it to your machine.

Most CAD/CAM packages have all these three bundled together, but not all.

Last is the motion control. Mach 3 / LinuxCNC / UCCNC etc on a PC. The orange box. GRBL on an Arduino with appropriate shields. The big machine panels from Siemens, Fanuc, Heidenham etc.

[RCaffin]

Hi Harmic - 'Curtain rails' - I nearly fell off my chair laughing my head off! I love it!

Nick - it might help you to understand if we explain that >80% of the pleas for help on this board are from naive innocent people who have bought cheap Chinese rubbish, found that the vendor who was so chatty before the payment was made is now utterly deaf and useless, and are now desperate for any help they can get. It might be harsh for some of us to say we get tired of explaining over and over again (for years on end) that you cannot make a silk purse out of a dead dog's ears.

Yes, you can get a toy for $1k which might or might not move. If you want to do some serious machining to reasonable accuracy, be prepared to spend >$5k (maybe >>$8k) AND put in a lot of mechanical and electronic engineering work. If you do not have the skills or the equipment ... difficult.

No, I am NOT being derogatory or insulting. You just don't get decent CNC gear for toy prices. Sorry, but there it is.

Cheers
Roger

[dharmic]

Same as anything else: Fast, good, cheap. Pick two. (or, really, one and a half).

I paid about AUD4500 shipped for my X6-2200L incl 4th axis a couple years back. I could have bought a real piece of rubbish for less than half that with the same size etc. I could have bought a smaller really cheap one for $500.

That $500 would unit would have been fantastic for learning about CNC machining. Playing with toolpaths, doing cutesy stuff with softwood and plastic chopping boards. And fixing and tweaking the machine all the time to get it to do even that. No production capacity, no serious metal ability, pretty much an educational toy. Which is still super valuable to a n00b like me. But I wanted something that'd have half a chance of cutting metal.

The $1000-$2000 machine would have been just as useless for anything but educational playtime or softwood stuff but would have taken up more room.

The next jump from the Omio type machines, as I see it, is into small production or toolroom machines and yeah, four to ten times the price tag. Way past what a home maker can justify in expense for occasional use. But if I had a commercial operation and had to pay for the hours I spent getting the Omio right or for the extra time it takes to cut metal lightly because that's all it can manage or for the frequent downtime because I was burning through cheap spindles or tooling, those four to ten times the price machines would pay themselves off very quickly.

Horses for courses. I'm happy enough with what I got in this "better than complete rubbish, worked when it arrived kinda" class of machine that I've just dropped a similar amount on a kickstarter for Generic Default's 7 axis "Swissmak" machine. My expectations are that it will be a slightly better build than the omio with better support, but very similar material capabilities. Just more options in terms of how I can crash it

[Mmpie]

Generic Default's 7 axis "Swissmak" machine.

Now that's one cool looking machine! Wish I'd seen it, I want one at home well done.

Hope you do a thread when it arrives.


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[NickB00]

Hey Mmpie,
Some really good advice there. I know you are right about lack of feedback and info on the Orange Box, I was hoping for someone to step in and really say if they are worth it before I completely dismiss them.
They look really robust and the 4th axis stepper is 4.2A compare to 3.0A on the others so it sounds like a good machine, but as you say, there is little feedback and info so a bit of a guess on how good it is.
I did not know the ebay ones had a all in one board for the steppers? Is that the 4 axis ones I mentioned before? Well there is a lot of people saying they overheat as well because of the vfd box not getting any proper cooling.
I do not plan to do any volume work, just tinkering making stuff for the fun of it. I have considered the Seig Mill alternative but they dont come CNC ready so if you know of any, let me know.
many thanks..
Nick

[NickB00]

Hey dharmic,
OK now I get it, the ethernet unit sounds like the way to go and you can add more stuff like a laser, but if you stick to the YongNuo USB
then you would recommend to add a $5 breakout board from ebay, can you please point me to one? So do you replace the YongNuo with the ebay one?
I understand about the guide rails vs the curtain rods, I completely agree that the guide rails really help stiffen the frame, so worth the money!
Thanks for explaining the CAD CAM Stuff. So the Orange box is grbl based? Didnt know that.
thanks for the info.
Nick

[NickB00]

Hi Roger,
I completely understand that. The ebay machines are really not worth worrying about so the next level is the Omio stuff.
I know it is also cheap chinese crap but better that the cheaper chinese crap. Personally I really like the pocketnc gear and swissmak too,
but cannot justify them at the moment as I am new to this stuff. Omio sounds like a good place to start!!
thanks.
Nick

[NickB00]

Hi dharmic,
Seems like Omio is a good place to start for most people as they at least offer semi decent machines that are capable of some metal milling work although they need tweaking and refinement which is what to expect in this price range.
At least now I know where to start, but still need to sort out which one to get. C'mon Orange Box people, how about some feedback??
Love the pocketnc & Swissmak, a dream for down the track for sure..
thanks again
Nick

[madeinoz67]

Hi Guys,
I've just finished reading this whole thread, Whew!, and it is full of great information for a Newbie like me.
I have not pressed the "Buy" button at Omio yet but have been thinking of getting the X4-800L USB or the orange box X4-800EPL machine.
I have been playing around with a T8 Hobbyking Engraver using Inkscape and Grbl and have had some success, but I have always wanted a cnc machine so hence the post.
There has been lots and lots of info on the X6 on this forum, which applies to the X4 as well, and many of you have been happy with them and some not.
Also the orange box has had some users talk about it, but not a lot, so I want to know more about this machine before I fork out the dough.
One user had success using Fusion360 and Mach3 with Boxy?? set as a post-processor, but I thought this machine did not need mach3 as it is built in? Has anyone had success with any of the software that Omio recommend?

Is the Orange Box easy to use? Once you have plugged in the usb stick with your cad model, what do you need to do and what controls do you have, and is a separate hand controller handy or do you just do that off the screen on the box? I really like the fact that you dont need a computer to run the machine, (like my Tevo Little Monster 3D printer which uses an SD Card) and they say that if there is a power interruption or you need a break, you can re-start the job from where it stopped.
Has anyone tried this and does it work?

I purchased the orange box and very happy with it. Very easy to use and no need for pc or Mach 3 license, basically it’s a rebadged ddcsv1.1. https://youtu.be/WX1-Dz-xOw8 is video of one. I use branrights fusion post and works a treat. I export straight to usb. You can pick these up down the track and wire it in if you want to/. My space is limited so I didn’t want another pc.

My only real con is if you want to do say surface probing for pc work then it won’t be any good. It has basic z axis probe but that’s it. That said there are some users on a forum I found that is hacking the firmware to add extra functionality

Also go foe the 2.2kw you’ll love the bigger chuck size

Is it worth getting the 4th axis version for future use or get it down the track, but make sure it has the motor controller for the 4th axes installed. They say it comes with a 4 bearing air cooled 800W ER11 spindle but in the specs they talk about a 2.2kW spindle that can handle a 13mm bit but you need to get a different collet? Must be a typo?

I purchased it all at the time as it was easier than wishing I should have bought it down the track. Brain right has a couple of videos showing dial engraving using the standalone controller and 4th axis

Also I can get a 6040 1.5kW 4 axis machine on ebay for about a $grand cheaper than Omio. I know that they are cheap made chinese machines, but from what I have read in this forum, so are the Omio ones, but they do seem to be better built (well some of you have had lots of probs here with squareness, flexing etc) and, but better electronics and stepper motors and overall construction, but there has been problems with these too. Just a discussion point, I dont think I want the ebay ones..

I appreciate your thoughts and feedback on the above and thank you in advance..

cheers
Nick

As per others I went for the more expensive omio due to bearings and it not using some as all the rest. I had found a cheaper one that I thought was good value. I had done quite a bit of research and even placed an order with an Ali supplier,however as soon as I placed the order I received a message that the particular one was not available however he would so me a fantastic deal on another one. When I asked for photos etc of under carriage and bearings I wasn’t impressed and danced for full refund. The omio is a “better” than most for the price point and I’m very happy with it.



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[NickB00]

[QUOTE=madeinoz67;2183442]I purchased the orange box and very happy with it. Very easy to use and no need for pc or Mach 3 license, basically it’s a rebadged ddcsv1.1. https://youtu.be/WX1-Dz-xOw8 is video of one. I use branrights fusion post and works a treat. I export straight to usb. You can pick these up down the track and wire it in if you want to/. My space is limited so I didn’t want another pc.

I want to use my office computer to do the cad/cam stuff and then go to the garage and insert my usb and go from there. I watched the video (thanks!!) and have a better understanding, although not fully, of what this ddcsv unit does. Do you have a link to branrights fusion post?

My only real con is if you want to do say surface probing for pc work then it won’t be any good. It has basic z axis probe but that’s it. That said there are some users on a forum I found that is hacking the firmware to add extra functionality

OK so can you set XYZ zero on a workpiece with the box or manually off the machine?

Also go foe the 2.2kw you’ll love the bigger chuck size

There is no mention of opting for the 2.2kW spindle anywhere. Only says 800W 4 bearings air cooled spindle. Do you have to ask for this and is it $$extra?
The 2.2 sounds great but is it overkill for the frame trying to mill aluminium/steel?


I purchased it all at the time as it was easier than wishing I should have bought it down the track. Brain right has a couple of videos showing dial engraving using the standalone controller and 4th axis

Yeah I watched that. Thanks for the info, he does not really show how he controls everything from start to finish using the box though, that would be great!



As per others I went for the more expensive omio due to bearings and it not using some as all the rest. I had found a cheaper one that I thought was good value. I had done quite a bit of research and even placed an order with an Ali supplier,however as soon as I placed the order I received a message that the particular one was not available however he would so me a fantastic deal on another one. When I asked for photos etc of under carriage and bearings I wasn’t impressed and danced for full refund. The omio is a “better” than most for the price point and I’m very happy with it.

Good move! I think this is definitely the way to go with Omio, a bit more research though before I pick one,
many thanks!!
Nick

[RCaffin]

even placed an order with an Ali supplier,however as soon as I placed the order I received a message that the particular one was not available however he would so me a fantastic deal on another one.
Standard 'come in sucker' up-selling gambit. Avoid ANYone who does this.

2.2 kW vs 800 W spindle
Generally, we have seen that the 2.2 kW spindles can burn out fairly quickly. Yes, 2.2 kW, but only for 30 seconds. They need that sort of power to get the 24,000 rpm they claim. They generally cannot deliver that power to the cutter. An additional REAL problem is that they can't deliver any power worth mentioning at anything below about 8,000 rpm. If you want to cut anything hard, like aluminium. you will need to be able to drop to around 3,000 rpm. They may be fine with LOTS of fast water cooling for short cuts in softwood or MDF.

Surface probing
A lot of the cheaper Chinese engines simply cannot do this. There are fudges, but they are fudges.

</bias>
Cheers
Roger

[Stigoe]

If you want to cut anything hard, like aluminium. you will need to be able to drop to around 3,000 rpm. They may be fine with LOTS of fast water cooling for short cuts in softwood or MDF.

No, you don't need to go down to 3000 RPM for aluminium, and I expected you to know that... Granted, I never use 1"-cutters with mine, but I never run less than 10000 RPM. I mostly use 6mm cutters and I've mainly cut aluminium with my Omio X6-2200L.

[jo_ky]

No, you don't need to go down to 3000 RPM for aluminium, and I expected you to know that... Granted, I never use 1"-cutters with mine, but I never run less than 10000 RPM. I mostly use 6mm cutters and I've mainly cut aluminium with my Omio X6-2200L.

I've got limited experience cutting Al, so far. But as soon as one goes from HSS cutters to carbide, the SFM you can get is so high that, I agree, there's no need for those low RPMs.

[dharmic]

No, you don't need to go down to 3000 RPM for aluminium, and I expected you to know that... Granted, I never use 1"-cutters with mine, but I never run less than 10000 RPM. I mostly use 6mm cutters and I've mainly cut aluminium with my Omio X6-2200L.

Yeah, come on Roger. 10,000RPM easy with 4mm HSS cutters, something like 18000 with carbide. At that speed the motors last a lot longer - mine's clocked up bulk hours now with no wear/burnout probs at all (touch wood).

[dharmic]

Hey dharmic,
OK now I get it, the ethernet unit sounds like the way to go and you can add more stuff like a laser, but if you stick to the YongNuo USB
then you would recommend to add a $5 breakout board from ebay, can you please point me to one? So do you replace the YongNuo with the ebay one?
I understand about the guide rails vs the curtain rods, I completely agree that the guide rails really help stiffen the frame, so worth the money!
Thanks for explaining the CAD CAM Stuff. So the Orange box is grbl based? Didnt know that.
thanks for the info.
Nick

Hold your roll, cowboy, I may not have been clear.

You don't need the breakout with the supplied USB board, it's integrated into the the thing.
linear rails don't necessarily stiffen the frame, what I meant was they don't distort like the curtain rods do in the middle of travel because they're supported by the frame across the whole length. And I have no idea what the orange box is running inside. I just meant that they were both examples of machine motion controller.

[RCaffin]

No, you don't need to go down to 3000 RPM for aluminium, and I expected you to know that... Granted, I never use 1"-cutters with mine, but I never run less than 10000 RPM. I mostly use 6mm cutters and I've mainly cut aluminium with my Omio X6-2200L.
OK, I'm impressed. Yeah, with 4 mm carbide cutters even more likely.
Yes, I am using bigger cutters (up to 16 mm) for some of my work. And some fly cutters too. (Plus some diamond tooling up to 35 mm diameter on basalt, but I don't think the forces are that high with that sort of work.)

Genuine question: what sort of tolerance can you hold with the Omio at 10k+RPM in good aluminium with a 6 mm carbide cutter?

Cheers
Roger

[Mmpie]

I might point out my first spindle died from an accident, and the second one was an absolute crock of sh**e off eBay and was never likely to last long.

Regarding 'tolerance' I couldn't tell you. I haven't measured all that much actually but I have made one piece (simple rectangle with bolt holes) that was bang on (according to calipers) in X and Y and only .01mm out in Z. I think you could expect a one off part to fall within about 0.2mm or so, no idea how it would hold on a batch of parts.


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[zeeflyboy]

This is a pic of 10mm 3 flute roughing cutter at 10,000rpm 2000mm/min, 10mm DoC, 1mm axial engagement.



This is the finished plate, all done with between 3-10mm 3 flute cutters and rpm somewhere between 10-16k.



I would overall say tolerance is better than 0.1mm for most parts I make, albeit after some tedious calibration on the machine and using a strategy of light finish pass + spring pass.

The best I’ve managed was for some small but really critical spacers, I managed to hold a tolerance of iirc 0.004mm on the critical dimension by cutting on the same portion of the Ballscrew (measured using micrometer).

[dharmic]

^ I reckon I'm holding about the same, about 0.1mm, with a 0.1mm spring pass to clean up at the end coming out pretty smooth and sounding like it's evenly engaged along the entire pass.

[Mmpie]

For such a cheap and Chinese machine I've gotta say the drive system is pretty good. I've measured movements from 0.01mm up to 10mm on my dial indicator at various parts of the travel and they've all been spot on.

I think the biggest problem with holding tolerances over a batch of parts would be the spindle, even with a healthy spray of mist coolant the lower part of the shaft can still get pretty warm, I think the water must only reach down far enough to keep the motor cool.


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