[dmannock]

This information may not be complete, but IMHO every Chinese factory making CNC machinery should know the up to date codes for the country to which they are shipping, even if the CE compliant wiring has to be gutted from the machine. In Canada, UL/CSA safety standards insist that wire and cable contain fire retardants and it may also need to be self-extinguishing. CE will not be OK in US and Canadian business locations. If in doubt talk to your insurance company. Wiring Color Codes : Color Codes - Electronics Textbook https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_wiring https://www.graphicproducts.com/arti...-color-coding/ https://elise.ema.gov.sg/safety/about.html#3

[G59]

I agree.

As for CE, compliance is optional depending on country of manufacturer. IEC, CSA and UL have strick rules regarding the use of coloured coded wiring.
As far as I know, UL and CSA, have same standards, which makes exporting to USA, for us, much easier and conforms to most insurance companies demands.

Something to think about though, when purchasing from overseas.

[Al_The_Man]

When I started up in Canada, I looked for wiring standards and the only one I could find apart from NEC and CEC, was NFPA79 which is the Electrical Standards for Industrial machinery, and pretty much is an extension of the NEC.
For the most part it is also valid in much of the rest of the world, with just a few minor differences.
Al.

[dmannock]

Your second paragraph is unclear. The UL and CSA do not have exactly the same SAFETY standards. I think that the colour codes are the same. UL single conductor wire and multi-conductor shielded cables (UL1015 and UL2586/UL2464 flexible drag chain cables, respectively) are typically used in control panels. The casing of the conductor is usually PVC 105C, 600V or 80C, 300V. Some cables in the Canadian UL directory may have more than one mark on the casing and be self-extinguishing. Braided shielding is better than foil shielding and some cables may have both. The issue for control cables is one of flexibility and load carrying capacity. I have used ampacity tables to select cables for my build from the second lowest url below which I think was standardized for 1PH and any 'low' voltage application. I was not clear if the 1000V rating footnote meant that I needed to adjust for the applied voltage or not, but I now think that this refers to the maximum voltage rating for the wire/cable from notes seen elsewhere.

The Yaskawa servo drivers (sgdg-7r6a) are 220V, 1PH input in my build and the HSD spindle 220V, 3PH. The old rule of 2x the voltage (V), x1/2 the current (A) usually applies for 1PH in real life usage (for resistive loads??), but the table suggests that the voltage is not part of the ampacity calculation. However, for 3PH systems the current capacity for the same AWG will be lower x (sqrt 3)/2. Maybe someone else can help answer these questions. Below that is a table of current calcs for 1/3PH cable using different mathematical methods. Enjoy!

Derating Ampacities

conductor ampacity ambient temp derating

Wire Gauges - Current Ratings

The above url has many links out to 1PH and 3PH motor cable selection.

IEE Current Ratings Regulations Table 4E1A

[dmannock]

Some more useful links to wiring and cable info.:

http://myelectrical.com/notes/entryi...e-calculations
Three Phase Calculator - myElectrical.com
http://myelectrical.com/tools
http://myelectrical.com/notes/entryi...n-introduction
An example how to calculate voltage drop and size of electrical cable | EEP
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/4.3.9.htm
http://www.openelectrical.org/wiki/i...ng_Calculation
http://www.electricaltechnology.org/...lculators.html
http://etap.com/cable-systems/cable-ampacity.htm
http://www.electricaltechnology.org/...-earthing.html
http://www.electricaltechnology.org/...si-system.html
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/si...ing-d_736.html

[A_Camera]

This information may not be complete, but IMHO every Chinese factory making CNC machinery should know the up to date codes for the country to which they are shipping, even if the CE compliant wiring has to be gutted from the machine. In Canada, UL/CSA safety standards insist that wire and cable contain fire retardants and it may also need to be self-extinguishing. CE will not be OK in US and Canadian business locations. If in doubt talk to your insurance company. Wiring Color Codes : Color Codes - Electronics Textbook https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_wiring https://www.graphicproducts.com/arti...-color-coding/ https://elise.ema.gov.sg/safety/about.html#3

The solution is very simple. Buy locally made products. If I buy some cheap Chinese machine via eBay I don't expect it to be compliant with any regulations. CE stamp or whatever other stamp they put on is just a decoration. You can't seriously expect them to know all the regulations on this globe for the price you are paying.

[G59]

You can't seriously expect them to know all the regulations on this globe for the price you are paying.

That's so funny. Again the misinformed giving everyone else a break just so he can have his toy for cheap.

This North American society is totally f'd up. Capitalism gone wrong.

[Al_The_Man]

One of the most egregious equipment faults I had pointed out was on some imported Chinese P.S. that had 120v switched outlets but used the Male version.!!
Al.

[A_Camera]

One of the most egregious equipment faults I had pointed out was on some imported Chinese P.S. that had 120v switched outlets but used the Male version.!!
Al.

But... what would you like it to be? Female? That would be EXTREMELY dangerous. You always have male on a PS, a female on the cable, after that a male for the wall plug. Otherwise the cable becomes a killer if you happen to plug in in the wrong order. Surely it must be the same in the US. Assuming that your pic show what I call male. Maybe you call that female and in that case it is just a language error because your picture shows what should be on the PS.

[Al_The_Man]

But... what would you like it to be? Female? That would be EXTREMELY dangerous. You always have male on a PS, a female on the cable, after that a male for the wall plug.

These were 120vac relay controlled OUTPUTS to feed 120v aux devices!!
The person who asked a query about it here intended using it for school machine.

Incidentally.
http://www.infoplc.net/files/documen...-06-27-401.pdf
Note: There has been a recent change, in NA wire colour code, a conductor that is live in an enclosure and originates from a remote location has been changed from Yellow to Orange to conform to Intl Standards.
Al.

[dmannock]

Good information Al. Thanks for adding this to the pot.

[dmannock]

A_camera, If like me you have sent parts and materials to China as 'assists' you will find that Chinese customs have a very interesting road block which insists that each component has a CCC number. Although there is a list of Chinese customs guidelines that seem to be reasonable, the question becomes which one(s) have precidence over the other(s). You can find this info at a national CCC office in your own country, but if like me you were visiting sick friends and family for the last time and having your first holiday in 7 years in your home country, it is much more difficult to accomplish before Chinese customs returns the items to your home address. Of the $2500 paid, only $270 was for shipping. The rest was for assorted taxes and duty when the customs people refused to accept that the parts were for a CNC machine to be exported to Canada. Customs in China is a 'grey' area and what happens depends on who clears the products at the port of entry. I had to pay for CCC numbers which were never generated and were then denied by the broker despite previous emails!
The problems are many. First parts stores in Chinese CNC factories source those parts from domestic catalogues, not the export catalogues. They then claim that those UL/CSA parts are not available in China when in fact they are often advertized on Alibaba/Made in China (in English) where that same CNC factory sells it's machines. After about 9 months, I found that the best way to search for the same obsolete (in the west) part with a UL/CSA mark made in another SE Asian country but available in China, was to use advanced Google search terms to locate URLs in China with the specific part number. Is Google still in China?

Buying local!? Of the many quotes for a quality 1325 4-axis CNC router from a Canadian distributor, the highest quote was CDN$52,000. It was still Chinese made and had a CE safety mark. In North America such machines are illegal and the seller must legally bear the cost of refitting and certifying the machine to UL/CSA and NEC/CEC standards. I think IEC applies in Europe, as well as British and German Standards for wiring. These may be on a link that I have posted in this thread. I did look at used 1325 machines of both US and European origins and found that 10 year old CNC routers started at USD$150,000. Equivalent units from the mid-1990s were about USD$30,000. This excludes the costs of a complete refit of the machine. In a commercial space, this refit should be done by a Master electrician who must then connect the unit to the mains supply for you for liability reasons. These are not little hobby machines with a plug on the end of a small gauge cable! The solution is simple. Stop CE marked Chinese products at the port of entry. Insist on UL/CSA paperwork. Anything with no genuine UL/CSA paper work has 90 days in which to be refitted and certified at the sellers expence before delivery to the buyer. This is the law here. The distributors know that what they are doing is illegal! UL/CSA field inspections are cheaper than certifying a whole product line in China. Intertek are even cheaper (USD$500-1000). They no longer have viable excuses and will say anything to make a sale!

Navigating the Business Environment in China

[dmannock]

The CE mark is not a safety testing mark but approval of a 'design process'. UL/CSA marks reflect extended safety testing of the machine AND its components. See my other entry about certification costs. The extra cost of parts and materials might be about 25 %. It would be less if a factory made every machine to this standard. The story about an aquarium pump that electrocuted a guy in Ontario a few years ago stays in my mind. It was CE marked and had the usual shoddy Chinese wiring made to the lowest $. The company that sold this product was sued, fined and all stock across Canada was seized and crushed. I assume they buried the guy! The Chinese CNC factories in Jinan and the Canadian government will get a report from me by the end of 2015. I will post a summary here. These factories know the rules, that is why they get CE or TUV-Sud certification, but if they don't want to admit it. 60 factories have this info from me and will be updated by the end of the year. Refusing importation at the port of entry is the key! It's better to be safe than sorry!

[G59]

I'm with you all the way on this issue.
For my company to sell or export any machine to the USA, the customs broker demands certificates of compliance with either UL or CSA standards, before even considering processing any paperwork for export.
So Chinese products to be fair, should also have to.
Afterall, if a fire or loss of life were to occur the insurance companies could easily dismiss any claim fRom the victims and do a 180 and sue the company who sold the machine.
At least with proper execution of electrical codes, you could say you covered your ass-ets.

[dmannock]

G59, Exactly! Ignorance of the law is no excuse! It's necessary for governments to make up their minds. Are they concerned with the safety of Canadians and US citizens or the profits of Chinese exporters? All it takes is some simple paperwork. If the details on the UL/CSA certificate are incorrect the company gets 1 chance to correct it, or it can be stored in a bonded location like the Chinese Embassy, the CCC offices, sent back to the supplier or crushed and sold as scrap. It's nothing personal!

[A_Camera]

I'm with you all the way on this issue.
For my company to sell or export any machine to the USA, the customs broker demands certificates of compliance with either UL or CSA standards, before even considering processing any paperwork for export.
So Chinese products to be fair, should also have to.
Afterall, if a fire or loss of life were to occur the insurance companies could easily dismiss any claim fRom the victims and do a 180 and sue the company who sold the machine.
At least with proper execution of electrical codes, you could say you covered your ass-ets.

I think we are confusing something here...

If you buy something from China via eBay at a very cheap price as a consumer with the aim of saving money then the one responsible for the import is YOU, and YOU only. That is at least the case here in Sweden. The customs have absolutely no knowledge or capability to judge electrical safety, it is simply not their field of experience and responsibility.

If you, on the other hand, as a company sell the products to your customers then again, the responsibility is yours and yours only. If you want to blame the manufacturer that's your business, but for me, as a consumer that is of no importance. If I buy a product in Sweden I expect the product to comply to the regulations valid in Sweden, if not then the responsibility is yours because you sold the equipment to me. That situation is not valid if I buy the same product directly via eBay.

On eBay you can buy a lot of stuff which is 100% illegal and import it to Sweden or any other country. I am not talking about explosives or drugs, but machinery or tools. Customs can't and won't check those, the labels can be wrong or right, the design can be wrong or right, or simply the product may not be allowed by law, for example radio transmitter equipment or laser pointers are two very good examples, which may be against the law. Same is true for electrical equipment.

Certificate of compliance is just paper, but like I said, it is different if you have a company and that company is importing equipment from another company. I was talking about private people buying stuff via eBay and get upset about things not being as labelled or expected. It is naive to believe that every eBay seller is updated, or even care about every local regulation and if a person is buying directly from an eBay seller then it is up to that person to make sure that the equipment is safe to use.

[G59]

We're not talking small Chinese distributors or manufacturing here.
These are companies that have a global market, other than eBay, and the importing country doesn't even have a system in place to verify compliance with national safety codes.
Try that in Germany or the US for that matter and see how it goes.
Also, many of these machines built in China and sold for industrial use, don't have any certification. Which means, as an employer, your New Chinese machine sets your shop on fire or someone lose a finger or whatever, the insurance companies can ask for that certificate and if you can't produce one, they can deny all claims leaving the employer out to dry.
My point is why Chinese exports don't have to conform to our standards?

[Tkamsker]

They have ce sign for China Export i See the Problem so if How do you Sue them ... thats why they can do stuff like you sayed ..

Gesendet von meinem SM-N9005 mit Tapatalk

[G59]

We're not talking small Chinese distributors or manufacturing here.
These are companies that have a global market, other than eBay, and the importing country doesn't even have a system in place to verify compliance with national safety codes.
Try that in Germany or the US for that matter and see how it goes.
Also, many of these machines built in China and sold for industrial use, don't have any certification. Which means, as an employer, your New Chinese machine sets your shop on fire or someone lose a finger or whatever, the insurance companies can ask for that certificate and if you can't produce one, they can deny all claims leaving the employer out to dry.
My point is why Chinese exports don't have to conform to our standards?

[dmannock]

G59, you're correct. If you're buying from Ebay, then 'caveat emptor' applies. Many Chinese suppliers of household goods do meet OUR safety standards, but with the tools and certainly CNC machines many do not and claim that this certification costs $$$. I have talked to UL about this and they say that it should cost $2000-5000USD, not the $31K I was quoted. Intertek costs $1000 for a field inspection in China. The excuses are really avoidances, the factories do not want to do this certification inspection unless it benefits them. I refused to pay to certify a product line for a factory! On the UL site you will see many fake stickers. In India, a couple of guys were jailed for this last year.

So, in short, they must have this certification and I have a way to enforce it!!! :boxing: