[upnorth]

Ok looks like I'm about to get started. I have ordered a Torus Pro.

So what do you guys recommend for tooling. I have already decided on the Tormach tooling system. I'll likely add a bit of that into my order when its ready to ship in a few weeks. I'm not asking about the standard things like end mills. I'm wondering about other things I have seen in various videos on youtube. I have a bit of tooling that will be coming over from the hercus as far as cutters go. This is my current wish list.

1) Haimer 3D Taster (Or should i get an electronic probe?)
2) Tormach Superfly cutter.
3) Tormach shear hog.
4) Pendant (Been getting along without one but is it something I really should get?)

What else do you guys recommend? I'm mostly interested in what will give me a productivity boost.

Thanks again for any replies.

Tom

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Put a VistaCNC pendant at the very top of your list. Operating a CNC machine without a good pendant sucks.

I would skip the Haimer, and get a decent, inexpensive electronic edge finder. Tormach has a nice one for about $40 - 31861 - TTS Electronic Edge Finder. Especially if you're new to CNC, you'll spend a fortune on new tips for the Haimer, and you WILL break them. It's a cool toy, but, ultimately, will not really save you time over an inexpensive electronic edge finder. I can zero all three axes to well under 0.001" in 30 seconds using the $40 Tormach tool.

Get a height gauge, for measuring tool length.

Get a bunch of ER20 collet chucks and collets. Novakon sells TTS holders as well. I don't have any of theirs, but I'm sure they're good as well. And you can be sure they will work with the Novakon ATC should you ever get one.

Of course, you'll need a GOOD vise, a clamping set, 1-2-3 blocks, parallels....

Regards,
Ray L.

[kvom]

Clamping set for the Torus t-slots, if you don't have some that match.

[dharmic]

+1 on the "good" part of SCzEngrgGroup's pendant recommendation.

My machine runs off a laptop which is on an arm right there. I used the wireless pendant that came with it early on but, now, I just jog with the keyboard on the lappy because it's more responsive and controllable than the crappy pendant.

I don't know how necessary they are if you have the keyboard right there next to you and the machine. But, if you are going to get a pendant, get something decent with a jog wheel and not just buttons or you might as well not bother.

[Hirudin]

I currently use an electronic edge finder with my non-Novakon machine. It's pretty great, and I'd say it's my current preferred method for edgefinding. Honestly, if I were to start buying tooling for a Torus Pro right now, I'd be thinking about going straight to Tormach's "Active Probe" (or whatever it's called). I haven't tried it though, so I'd research first. I've owned the Passive Probe. It's OK, but I had accuracy issues with it (possibly because of user error, possibly because of some bug or something in Mach3, possibly just as a result of the thin/flexible stylus, I don't know for certain) so I wouldn't personally recommend it. With either of these you have to deal with the wire, which isn't the end of the world or anything, but it's a bit of a pain.

If, after researching testimonials from ACTUAL owners, it sounds like the Tormach Active Probe isn't that good, and there were no other options available, there's almost nothing that would stop me from getting a Haimer. They're pretty awesome. Are they overpriced? Yeah, prolly. Mechanically they're a glorified dial indicator, but they work very well.

Tips ("styluses") will get broken. It would probably be wise to order at least one extra from the get-go.

Electronic edge finders are a'ight for X and Y, but are basically garbage for Z. They have zero "give" so if you overshoot, prepare to start wondering in what way the edge finder got deformed. Using a dial indicator tool for Z fixes this, but then you're signing yourself up for another tool change. Perhaps an electronic edge finder plus a gauge block would be acceptible. You'd need to manually move the gauge block in and out from under the edge finder. Slow, but accurate. Make sure you don't forget to subtract the radius of the edge finder or the height of the gauge block.

Laser edge finders are junk. Avoid them unless you're never going to cut anything except raw stock.

[daniellyall]

if you want a laser edge you make your own that is more of a router tool,

a vista pendant hell yer very handy as you can lean in a have it right in front of you, the haimer is a risk to you know what`s what, you break it you're out a lot of money (your risk) electronic edge finder`s are good enough if 0.01 to 0.0001 is ok you can step in by that amount in M3. tool holder`s work that out by what you want to do. to do tool height a probe or a tool setter

[SCzEngrgGroup]

...electronic edge finder`s are good enough if 0.01 is ok you can step in by that amount....

You can step by ANY amount the hardware is capable of. On Novakon machines, this is 0.0001". If you think you can only step by 0.010", then you have a lot to learn about using Mach3. The accuracy of an edge finder is determined first and foremost by how you use it, and then by the physical accuracy of the device itself. The Tormach electronic edge finders I use are good for a few tenths (and even that can be virtually eliminated by using it properly), which is well below the accuracy of the machine as a whole.

Regards,
Ray L.

[upnorth]

Thanks for the replies guys. I think I will move the pendant to the top of the list. I did wish for it a few times when doing set up work. I found myself clicking the mouse behind me to move one step at a time and I could not even see the screen due to monitor placement. A pendant would certainly eliminate that. I already have a glacern vise. Only problem is it is a 4" vise as it is from my smaller mill. It will do for now.

I already have a tool setter of sorts but it will likely get returned. Its the one from Fowler. It is like a 123 block but it lights up when the tool touches it. I am not impressed with its accuracy. It is far from being flat and did not work when it arrived. Somehow the spring was installed bent over so did not make electrical contact. It is out of flatness by at least a few thou. I'm going to look into the electronic edge finders. I did look at them a while back but was a bit puzzled about how you would find Z with them.

I already have things like parallels, 123 blocks, and a clamping kit although I think I will have to get one for different sized t slots. The height gauge seems like a good idea.

I am wondering about something with the TTS. I have been reading the thread over in the Tormach section about tool pull out. I don't want to ask this there because I don't want to get into what goes on in there. When the guys have issues with pull out. Does pull out occur because there is chatter or is the chatter caused by the tool pulling out? Just curious. I did order the power drawbar so I hope it wont be an issue for me.

Tom

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Thanks for the replies guys. I think I will move the pendant to the top of the list. I did wish for it a few times when doing set up work. I found myself clicking the mouse behind me to move one step at a time and I could not even see the screen due to monitor placement. A pendant would certainly eliminate that. I already have a glacern vise. Only problem is it is a 4" vise as it is from my smaller mill. It will do for now.

I already have a tool setter of sorts but it will likely get returned. Its the one from Fowler. It is like a 123 block but it lights up when the tool touches it. I am not impressed with its accuracy. It is far from being flat and did not work when it arrived. Somehow the spring was installed bent over so did not make electrical contact. It is out of flatness by at least a few thou. I'm going to look into the electronic edge finders. I did look at them a while back but was a bit puzzled about how you would find Z with them.

I already have things like parallels, 123 blocks, and a clamping kit although I think I will have to get one for different sized t slots. The height gauge seems like a good idea.

I am wondering about something with the TTS. I have been reading the thread over in the Tormach section about tool pull out. I don't want to ask this there because I don't want to get into what goes on in there. When the guys have issues with pull out. Does pull out occur because there is chatter or is the chatter caused by the tool pulling out? Just curious. I did order the power drawbar so I hope it wont be an issue for me.

Tom

Pull-out is caused by inadequate drawbar tension. Period. The Tormach guys are ALL using the Tormach PDB, which simply does not have enough drawbar tension (2500 pounds at best). I do much more aggressive cuts than most Tormach owners seem to do, and I have never once had pull-out, in over 5 years of nearly daily use, even under conditions with extreme chatter. How much drawbar tension you need is a function of spindle power - for a 1.5HP machine, you need at least 3000-3500 pounds of drawbar tension to eliminate pull-out.

Regards,
Ray L.

[Dallas J]

On the top of Pendant, Is there any reason to get the P2-S over the P1A-S?

[SCzEngrgGroup]

P2S is what I have, and I love it. Which is better is a matter of personal taste. Look at the functions provided, and think about how you'd use it.

Regards,
Ray L.

[upnorth]

Hi Ray:

I see you designed the power draw bar I will be using. In your previous post you mentioned you take heavier cuts than most. What do you consider a reasonable heavy cut? I was planning to use no end mills bigger than 3/8" but maybe I'm thinking too conservative? Maybe as an example what sort of cut can I take with a 3/8" HSS end mill?

Thanks

Tom

[daniellyall]

You can step by ANY amount the hardware is capable of. On Novakon machines, this is 0.0001". If you think you can only step by 0.010", then you have a lot to learn about using Mach3. The accuracy of an edge finder is determined first and foremost by how you use it, and then by the physical accuracy of the device itself. The Tormach electronic edge finders I use are good for a few tenths (and even that can be virtually eliminated by using it properly), which is well below the accuracy of the machine as a whole.

Regards,
Ray L.

I work in MM not that old country inch yuck

[Hirudin]

Ugh. SCzEngrgGroup's sale pitch is frequently either "I've never had pullout" or "you'll never have pullout provided you use proper feeds and speeds". "I've never had pullout" is completely unprovable and should be taken with a grain of salt. And the inclusion of the word "proper" in the other pitch is a weasel word which completely negates the implied message. He may as well be saying "you'll never have pullout as long as you don't cause pullout".

Large, international tooling companies with budgets of millions of dollars and teams of engineers are currently working on ways to reduce pullout while maintaining convenient tool changes. If the answer was simply "pull harder" they wouldn't need to be spending so much time on the problem, would they?

I made my own power draw bar. I'm an amateur and it was my first try. It was capable of taking pretty aggressive cuts without pullout. I had something like 3000 lbs. worth of bellevilles in it, by the way. I got pullout a few times, and chatter always preceded it. But, as long as I used "proper" feeds and speeds "I never got pullout".

With all that said, the Novakon power draw bar that Ray designed looks very cool. I've never seen it in person, but I've seen it in a few videos and it looks like it is nice and fast. The design that allows you to use normal R8 tooling is a big "plus" as well. So are the spindle speed readout and the touch probe connection point. I'm not trying to talk anyone out of buying the PDB, because it really does look good, I just with Ray would stop acting like it's somehow completely ****ing immune to pullout.

[bhurts]

I am finding the 3000-3500 pounds needed tension interesting. I've read a lot about it but since I've never used tts I have know personal experience to draw from. What I find funny is that Haas came out Thursday to my work with a drawbar force gauge. They spec between 1700 and 1950 pounds for are cat 40 spindle. Never had any pullout and I am sure it has been pushed many times harder then a tormach or novakon is capable of. It has a 20 hp spindle but since it's Haas power 10 might be more realistic. I guess the taper design and pull studs make a ridiculously drastic difference.

Ben

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Ugh. SCzEngrgGroup's sale pitch is frequently either "I've never had pullout" or "you'll never have pullout provided you use proper feeds and speeds". "I've never had pullout" is completely unprovable and should be taken with a grain of salt. And the inclusion of the word "proper" in the other pitch is a weasel word which completely negates the implied message. He may as well be saying "you'll never have pullout as long as you don't cause pullout".

WTF is your problem??? You're seriously calling me a liar for saying I've never had pullout, even though I'VE NEVER ONCE HAD PULLOUT?? Just because you don't like what I say, does not give you license to call me a liar. You are entitled to your opinion, but so am I. And, in this case, my opinion is backed by years of actual real-world experience, and many satisfied customers. not just my own claims. And, for the record, I don't think I've EVER said "you'll never have pullout provided you use proper feeds and speeds", and certainly not w.r.t anyone using my PDB. I have NEVER limited my feeds and speeds based on pull-put, since I'VE NEVER ONCE HAD PULL-OUT. I typically run my machine right at the limits of its capability (1.5HP), which means running the spindle as close as possible to 100% power, and I fully expect my customers to do the same. And I have, more than a few times, made these cuts under conditions of severe chatter, without ever seeing pull-out.

I am perfectly comfortable guaranteeing that my customers will NOT experience pull-out when using my PDB on any cut that does not exceed the rated spindle power of the machine, regardless of feeds and speeds, unless there is a problem with their spindle or collet. This is trivial to validate by simply manually torquing the drawbar to 30 ft-lbs, just as my PDB does. At 30 ft-lbs, with a 1.5HP spindle, a good collet, and a properly lubricated drawbar and thrust washer, pull-out WILL NOT OCCUR. And, I will work with any customer who is having problems to identify and correct the source of those problems.

Large, international tooling companies with budgets of millions of dollars and teams of engineers are currently working on ways to reduce pullout while maintaining convenient tool changes. If the answer was simply "pull harder" they wouldn't need to be spending so much time on the problem, would they?

Seriously??? And what "Large, international tooling companies" would that be that are still wasting engineering resources on something that has been well understood for decades? Commercial CNC machines use completely different toolholders, and a completely different retention mechanisms that are VERY well understood and for which pull-out is virtually un-heard of. On these forums, pull-out is a malady unique to TTS-based systems, due to the straight-shank toolholders.

I made my own power draw bar. I'm an amateur and it was my first try. It was capable of taking pretty aggressive cuts without pullout. I had something like 3000 lbs. worth of bellevilles in it, by the way. I got pullout a few times, and chatter always preceded it. But, as long as I used "proper" feeds and speeds "I never got pullout".

Sorry your PDB design doesn't work well, but mine works extremely well. In fact, I can honestly say " I'VE NEVER ONCE HAD PULLOUT".

Regards,
Ray L.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

I am finding the 3000-3500 pounds needed tension interesting. I've read a lot about it but since I've never used tts I have know personal experience to draw from. What I find funny is that Haas came out Thursday to my work with a drawbar force gauge. They spec between 1700 and 1950 pounds for are cat 40 spindle. Never had any pullout and I am sure it has been pushed many times harder then a tormach or novakon is capable of. It has a 20 hp spindle but since it's Haas power 10 might be more realistic. I guess the taper design and pull studs make a ridiculously drastic difference.

Ben

A CAT/ISO/BT-20/30/40/50 taper spindle is a COMPLETELY different ballgame from TTS, and the two cannot be compared in any meaningful way. Pull-out is virtually unheard of on machines using those. FAR less drawbar tension is required for even CAT40 than for TTS, due to the tapered geometry and pull-stud. The straight shank of TTS is the root cause of pull-out you see discussed here. CAT/ISO-30 requires only about 1300 pounds, and will operate easily at 5+HP with zero pull-out.

Regards,
Ray L.

[G59]

CAT/ISO-30 requires only about 1300 pounds, and will operate easily at 5+HP with zero pull-out.

You beat me to it.

1750# on a BT30 or ISO30 taper is good for 5hp nominal. Dare I say 7HP. Maybe with Nikken holders?

I agree that the straight shank of TTS tooling is the problem.

From what I've read here on this forum, the Torus lives quite happily using 1/2" endmills. I never would of imagined 5 years the way you use yours Ray. That's production and not hobby work anymore.
Good overall machine from what I've seen in video.

[Hirudin]

I didn't say you were lying. I said your words are completely unprovable and should be taken with a grain of salt. Here, let me give you an example to illustrate why unprovable things should not necessarially be believed...

I have lived on the planet Netpune for five years.


Let me google that for you

[daniellyall]

if a man say he has never had pull out why go ape **** over it. his word is his money