[gfacer2]

OK Build as at Nov 20 (ie start of wiring issue).

Attachment 299056

Cabinet as at Nov 20

Attachment 299058

Wires:

Attachment 299060Attachment 299062Attachment 299064Attachment 299066

[gfacer2]

Ugg, another 10 days and a few random photos of wires (not showing the shielding as asked, not showing writing, not even showing where I'm looking on the machine). Jack is becoming very slow to respond. He also seems to send information at the end of his day, when I can't possibly respond. If he sent it before noon, I'd see it and be able to respond.

And if I respond during his off hours, I never seem to get a response back.

Frustrating.

PS told Jack about thread. I thought someone from Omni would be monitoring but maybe not.

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[gfacer2]

OK, after our little skype chat, the flood gates have opened. Note - none of the issues I was last waiting on (showing shielding and the vacuum pump relay) have been addressed. They may not be able to get the right relay or they don't understand so I am going to take a photo of my current set up to help that along.

The other sort of big issue is that they added a t-slot to the table which was specifically mentioned not to do. Jack quickly offered to replace it but I am going to consider keeping it first.

Anyhow pictures away:

Attachment 299776 Attachment 299778 Attachment 299780

Attachment 299782 Attachment 299784 Attachment 299786

Attachment 299788 Attachment 299790 Attachment 299792

Attachment 299794 Attachment 299796 Attachment 299798

Attachment 299808

Attachment 299804 Attachment 299792

Attachment 299810 Attachment 299812

[dmannock]

Welcome to the real world of the assembly plant known as Jinan Omni. Their techs are trained in house, the sales and tech staff do not understand technical issues.
The sales staff use translation software on TM too much. They should be literate in a foreign language to understand the tech issues, but while they say they understand, they do not. They expect buyers to gut and rebuild the machines for commercial use in N. America. I suggest you contact David Lee at TTS Global and get an inspection organized before you pay the balance owing. David Lee did a fantastic report for me. Omni would in my opinion deny knowing their own mothers if they could get away with it.

[dmannock]

I did UL/CSA too. I provided everything required and they still couldn't get it right. The ground wires in one control panel build were black!! So remember the international wiring colour codes. Once you have the machine if the wires and cables are undersized, you might want to swap them out, send them back and ask for a refund. They will give you the machine that they can build to the lowest $, not they machine specified in your discussions or your contract with them. They are losing repeat customers because of the hassle IMHO. "You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

There are good ampacity and other tables here (I told Omni about this):

Wiring Color Codes : Color Codes - Electronics Textbook
Power Wiring Color Codes
American Wire Gauge table and AWG Electrical Current Load Limits with skin depth frequencies and wire breaking strength
Wire Gauges - Current Ratings
Electrical Motor - Full Load Current
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ma...re-d_1690.html
http://www.powerstream.com/wire-fusing-currents.htm
https://www.eol.ucar.edu/rtf/facilit.../Wire_Size.htm
http://myelectrical.com/notes/entryi...n-introduction
http://myelectrical.com/notes/entryi...e-calculations

Got my wire and cable at Wesbell wire & cable in the USA. Your local city inspection service can do an ETL inspection for $500 CDN. Dave

[gfacer2]

Dave, with all due respect, I've never been clear how you could have researched these machines and still thought you could get a very specific result with communication as your only ally. What did the inspection tell you that you did not already know was an issue?

[dmannock]

Gfacer2, I received replies to my Alibaba, etc RFQ from 60 factories, received 3 fake UL certificates, got exactly the same stories about how CE was OK + quality from each one. Talked to them about law, liability, insurance. Each one knew the standard. Having been ready to buy twice and having to contact the UL, I finally limited to three factories. All had good reputations, but I could not afford to go to China. With hind site, I should have paid for an agent there. It would have been much easier. This has been a very difficult process for me with a sales manager who claimed to have good English skills. I have been very thorough technically, but the sales manager's poor communication with his untrained techs seems to be at the heart of the problem + the usual greed. Things that were discussed, but were deliberately omitted from the contract have been a source of frustration. We are now arguing over excess freight fees with Brightways as the container is being inspected by customs in Vancouver. DDU means that they should be paying excess fees for shipping and haulage including fork lift delivery, but (oooppps!) they did not understand???. The sales manager has tried to be clever too many times and has been caught again and again and was finally disciplined at the beginning of 2015. However, I think that he may be a relative of the factory owner and so will continue doing international sales!

I see from your contract that you have included more details and a timeline (but without penalties for late delivery). I only missed a few things on your list. This was my first and hopefully last direct purchase, but I know that Cancam have experienced some similar problems and have to visit about twice a year for machines that they rebuild and certify in Burlington, ON. I have had the Minister for International Trade and the Chinese Embassy in Ottawa contact Sunny Sun. They did not like this and I suspect are getting pay back. The inspection was very thorough. If you PM me with your email I will send it to you. My inspection set a new company standard and will doubtless be used as an example that TTS Global will send out to potential customers. I am suggesting to Omni that they cease exporting until they sort out these communication and technical problems. If they cannot understand in several foreign languages and do not know the simplest electrical engineering or safety standards in the market to which they are exporting, then they should not export, Dave

[djcregan]

Hi
Not sure what all the fuss is about and don't really have the time to investigate. What I would say is this:

The photos Gfacer has posted look very similar indeed to my 1325 machine. Except mine is linear ATC.
On the whole even with the problems Enoch were mainly due to my lack of experience and what I feel is a hard to understand syntec manual. Also I got nothing Omni specific.

That said the machine has far exceeded expectations and would have no hesitation buying another,
which I probably will.

Being realistic for the price, these machines are incredible value for money.



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[dmannock]

You are in the UK, so CE marks are OK, although there is no guarantee that your parts and wiring are to BS or EEC standards. Beware fire hazards. In Canada UL/CSA extended tests are required for safety reasons. UL/CSA/ETL/TUV-R specifies that the wires and cables must contain fire suppressants and be self-extinguishing. The same is true for plastic parts and the contact materials for conduction must meet similar high standards. The Chinese try to avoid this, but could get an ETL equivalent mark in China for $1000USD for a series of machines. Jinan Omni make mechanically good machines, but do not want to go the whole way. This is true for many other CNC machinery companies in China, even when UL/CSA certified parts and materials are made there or in S. E. Asia. They do not want to know about the regulations in the marketplace into which they are selling and expect the end user to refit the machine. The law here states that the supplier must do this. I am going to close down these loopholes in a report to the federal government that may solve the import/export imbalance in North America. It will not massively increase the price of Chinese goods, but will increase our population's safety.

Without these safety marks a Master electrician will not connect the machine to the mains supply. You cannot do this yourself, it is illegal and there are heavy fines and prison sentences. Also, we can't get valid insurance on the commercial work space without these marks, consequently in the event of an accident or fire we could lose everything, including the house and vehicle. It's best just to comply and be covered.

[gfacer]

Just to make a point, however, a lot of US made machines are probably not CSA approved as a whole (nor necessarily wired 100% correctly for gauge and colors, etc), although their component parts might be. Same, more obviously, with European machines.

For example, on this Omni, one of the items we haven't checked for UL/CSA compliance is the HSD spindle....because if its not, we still want it anyway.

My CNT router made in the US, may or may not be compliant as a whole, but it hasn't proved to be a problem for any electrician yet.

Insurance and building inspectors are of the greatest concern if you choose to worry about it as much as a bureaucrat might.

Bottom line is that if you need CSA / UL, you need to find a company willing to do that. Omni was not, we asked....but paying double for a reseller of similar machines who would then charge extra to certify seemed a poor choice as well.

[djcregan]

Well. I wish you well.


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[gfacer2]

Yes, I am 100% sure my Camtech is not UL/CSA certified as an assembly and it is a Canadian machine made in 2000. I also know if does not use 100% correct colour codes on the wiring. No one has had an issue. Not electricians (though it is on a plug anyhow - I just tell them the plug I need), not insurance inspectors. I've not had an electrical inspector in as I had the building approved before I moved anything in.

I won't even get into the shop built acrylic benders we use.

I will remain forever more worried about space heaters than about my router.

[dmannock]

You're a bit behind the news. The UL & CSA settled this issue in court 4-5 years ago. They now accept each other's marks. Yes, the HSD spindle and the Becker vacuum pump only have CE but are very high quality items. Here they do worry about certification, but ETL inspection costs are cheap at $375. I did bother Omni with UL/CSA taught them and sent them the parts. Gfacer2 seems to have one machine on the way with some UL parts/wiring. I found 2 other companies to do this, but the greedy person at Omni got my attention. A machine built in China to that standard can be certified by Intertek with an ETL mark for $1000 in China and that cost can be spread over several machines or it can be done locally as above. Electricians: No, here they must carry insurance and be a Gold seal Master electrician. They carry liability for the electrical installation. You do not need to pay double for a CE marked machine from an illegal Canadian distributor. They bear the cost of refitting and inspection by law. This isn't optional. Report any that tell you otherwise, they know what they are doing is illegal. You do not need a UL/CSA mark, there are other options as explained above for a machine fitted to UL/CSA standard. ETL is not nearly as expensive as either the UL or CSA. Local tool stores selling big CNC machines do this here. Omni know this. I sent them an Intertek quote.

As for being a bureaucrat, the following situation is worth considering: Your business catches fire, everything burns to the ground and you destroy/damage neighbouring busnesses/homes. If your machines are legal, then your insurance company should pay out. If not, everyone will be after you and you and your family may have to move into a one room apartment and visit the food bank every week. I understand that road kill and squirrel meat are real tasty if that helps you! lol

[gfacer2]

dmannock, please start your own thread if you want to insult us and tell us that we will be in dire straights because of hypothetical situations.

[dmannock]

8mm steel, you may get 6mm for a lot of it. My inspection showed this by micrometer. Also, I have read that not all of the seams joining the legs and the table are welded.

[dmannock]

I'm not trying to insult you. The inspection of the building and the equipment are 2 separate issues. You are probably right about the space heaters too. It is possible to use the machines without getting them certified. That is your choice and that's fine by me.

[gfacer2]

Ok - so its been a while. I can't say that I am feeling great things about Omni but not for major things. Just simple poor response.

To back track a bit. They put on a combination T-slot/vacuum table. No a huge deal but not to the PO or their PI. They offered to replace it immediately but I said I would think about keeping it. I did, for a day, and they decided to have it full vacuum as requested. I've never used Tslot and don't plan to start and it reduces my flexibility and quality of vacuum zones.

Well that was back on Dec 14th or so. Finally by the first week of January the table was actually being replaced. They went from offering to replace to the longest heel dragging of this whole purchase. I had to bug/pester/threaten bad PR/etc etc. and finally it went to Jack's boss who I guess said 'fine' and then it was underway.

So the moral of the story is if they give you the run around, ask if that is what their boss said too.

They also have not really figured out my 70amp relay that I need for my vacuum pump. They did rig something up but I do not think its right. I am hoping that I at least will get a trigger in the control that my electrician can use for a proper relay.

At any rate, I've now paid for the machine and waiting to confirm the shipping arrangements. The way the CAD is going, my price was increasing hundreds a week over the last few weeks.

Anyhow - need to get it on a boat as my current machine is out of here in 2 weeks (though its only 1 building away and I am sure I can buy some time on it if I want).

[gfacer2]

OK, its on a boat (as of Monday). Just before the Chinese new year holiday so that was the good part. No crate (too high they say) but I'm not overly concerned as they aren't that fragile. Anyhow - more to come when it arrives.

[gfacer2]

Finally it's here! Before I write up a detailed description of everything I have get it running.

Here is picture of the wiring lugs. Attachment 312004

On the left is the main power as this is going to the switch on the cabinet. What I can't decide is what the other 2 sets of lugs is for and if I power them off the incoming wire, where they would be switched.

Grounding is on a lug outside that connects to a Grounding bar inside so thats clear enough.


Anyone have some thoughts?

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[gfacer2]

OK looks like those lugs on the right are outgoing. They seem to be fed from relays that in turn are fed from the outgoing side of the main switch.

Maybe for the vacuum pump? Except there are 2 of them...

Here's the relays (right 2 marked D18) .



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