[gfacer2]

Hi All,

OK after lots of questions and poking around here we finally put our money down for a Omni 1530 (really 1631 fingers crossed) ATC router.

I want to document the purchase as best I can to help others. I do not know yet if I will have any pitfalls but if and when I do have them I will try and post them. I will not use this forum to mediate any issues other than as a last venting.

I am going into this knowing:

1) I will get what I pay for. So when I can buy this router at about 1/2 price from a restickered importer then I know that I am in the right range. I have compared suppliers but I have not haggled because if I get a better price I know I will get a worse machine.
2) I know it will not be ready to go out of the box. hopefully its close but it will not be where I need it to be and I expect I will need to do a fair bit of legwork to get it going properly. This is a given.
3) I know documentation will be minimal or non existant so I have researched the controls etc before committing. I expect the machine and anything else is a bonus.
4) I know to ask for pictures, and to be specific.
5) I know not to pay attention to the posted shipping costs.
6) I know there are things I don't yet know and I am on the lookout for them as we go through the process.

Anyhow I thought I would start by posting my PO to Omni and their PI back. Mine is relatively detailed, theirs is only somewhat but they should be referring to the same end machine.

I wanted to do this as I really had no idea how to write up a PO for this (really more a detailed spec sheet but anyhow) so this is my go at it. I'm going to reserve a few of the early posts for updates.

[gfacer2]

here is the PO - sorry some of the formatting might be off.

I did not just fire this off. I sent a draft first and got a proforma invoice (PI) back and then back and forth until I had the changes needed and the PI did not conflict with this (even though the level of detail on the PI is a lot less). BTW - as for the models of the drives and motors - as long as they are comparable I'll be fine. The spindle I'll be sticky on as I wanted a ceramic ceramic bearings HSD spindle as both my brother and I run 15 year old HSD's with ceramics and they still work great. I did ensure we agreed that this model was available and suitable first.

I think the biggest 'oddity' for Omni is the insistence on UL listed components and wiring labels. Let's just say we've had issues and it the wires aren't labeled UL it is a big potential problem under a worse case scenario (inspection). That added about 5% to the price.

Surrey Plasticworks Ltd.
...

October 14th, 2015
Purchase Order:

Working/cutting area: 1600mm (MINIMUM) x 3100mm (MINIMUM) x 300mm

Frame/Gantry: 8mm steel minimum, heat treated after welding for stress relief, painted. Frame with adjustable feet on frame for leveling. Machined at mating surfaces, shims of suitable metal material where required.

Controller: Syntec 6MD with Ethernet connection provided with english manual and technical support contacts. With hand wheel mpg control.

Working Voltage: 220v 3phase with Ground

Motor Drives/Motors: Yaskawa 1000w (SGDV-7R6A01A) drives and Yaskawa 850w motors (SGMGV-09ADC61). 2 motors on X axis, 1 motor on Y and 1 motor on Z axis.

Cabling/relays/switches: All cabling with shielded wires labeled on the sheathing of the wire with UL or CSA listings. All components,wiring, motors, relays and switches to be CSA or UL listed and labeled on the exterior of the part/wire.
Omron E-stops on both sides of the gantry and control.
Schneider Main switch on cabinet
All components are grounded.

Motor Reduction: Belt Reduction

Drive: `Taiwan brand Helical Rack and Pinion for x/y and German sourced ballscrew on Z
Rails: Hiwin 30mm (HGH 30CA) Linear Bearings on all rails
Metal/Rubber Wipers on all bearings.
Automatic oil lubrication of all bearings.

ATC: Carousel type 8 slots ISO 30 - auto tool calibration sensor

Spindle: HSD model es929-H6161H0822 (No substitutions)

VFD: Delta 11KW with english manual

Table: Phenolic vacuum table without T slot - 8 zone

Dust Hood: Gcode controlled with air cylinder.

Relays: Please provide one relay for UL/CSA listed 70A/220v 3 phase relay (vacuum pump) wired to and controlled by the controller via button and G code.

Spares parts:
4 x spare pinion gears
12 spare linear bearings
2 sets of reduction belts

Price: Sorry - you'll have to negotiate that yourself...

Payment:
30% via wire transfer on confirmation of purchase order conditions and confirmed pricing
20% via wire transfer on receipt of pictures of components, before installation. Specifically:

• Servo motors and drives (with model and serial # visable)
• relays and switches (with CSA/UL listing visible)
• wiring to be used (with CSA/UL listing visible)
• Spindle to be mounted (with model and serial # visable)
• hiwin bearings

25% via wire transfer on receipt of build pictures/video showing specifically:
Detailed photos of

• Assembly,
• machined surface on parts that will be bolted together
• Metal shims used where needed
• Interior of Cabinet,
• Overall Wiring layout
• Ground termination point
• CSA/UL labeling on wiring
• Servo drives and connections.
• Transformers
• 70 amp/220v relay
• Exterior of cabinet
• Syntec controller
• Portable MPG controller
• Linear motion system
• Details of belt drive system
• Bearings and rails
• Close up of Rack and pinion
• Table
• Size of table working area.
• Plumbing of vacuum table
• location of limit switches
• ATC
• Spindle model and serial number
• ATC carousel
• Confirmation of proper working voltage.

Video of test run with tool change, auto touch off, dust boot retracted on our machine (marked as such in the video). Confirmation of 1600mm x 3100mm working size on the table. Confirmation of square cuts on sample material.

25% via wire transfer on completion of loading into container with photos of pre shipping greasing and packing.

Delivery:
Machine to be ready for shipping within 35 days of order placement.

Other terms:

Surrey Plasticworks has the right to engage 3rd party inspection firms to check production before the goods leave China and before final payment is made.

No additional accessories/features will be paid for without prior authorization.

[gfacer2]

OK so here is the PI as it is now (just prior to deposit)

Note that the deposits do not match - I still plan on my schedule - even if just to get the pictures I need. Again - I've deleted pricing. I will only say I've seen chinese made, NA stickered and marketed machines for at $41000USD to $60000 CAD range that compare and this is a healthy markup for them from what I have agreed to. Not an unfair one - if you asked me to ship, store, display and support these machines I'd want that kind of margin too.

[dmannock]

I did UL/CSA too. I provided everything required and they still couldn't get it right. The ground wires in one control panel build were black!! So remember the international wiring colour codes. Once you have the machine if the wires and cables are undersized, you might want to swap them out, send them back and ask for a refund. They will give you the machine that they can build to the lowest $, not they machine specified in your discussions or your contract with them. They are losing repeat customers because of the hassle IMHO. "You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

There are good ampacity and other tables here (I told Omni about this):

Wiring Color Codes : Color Codes - Electronics Textbook
Power Wiring Color Codes
American Wire Gauge table and AWG Electrical Current Load Limits with skin depth frequencies and wire breaking strength
Wire Gauges - Current Ratings
Electrical Motor - Full Load Current
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ma...re-d_1690.html
http://www.powerstream.com/wire-fusing-currents.htm
https://www.eol.ucar.edu/rtf/facilit.../Wire_Size.htm
http://myelectrical.com/notes/entryi...n-introduction
http://myelectrical.com/notes/entryi...e-calculations

Got my wire and cable at Wesbell wire & cable in the USA. Your local city inspection service can do an ETL inspection for $500 CDN. Dave

[gfacer2]

Dave, with all due respect, I've never been clear how you could have researched these machines and still thought you could get a very specific result with communication as your only ally. What did the inspection tell you that you did not already know was an issue?

[dmannock]

Gfacer2, I received replies to my Alibaba, etc RFQ from 60 factories, received 3 fake UL certificates, got exactly the same stories about how CE was OK + quality from each one. Talked to them about law, liability, insurance. Each one knew the standard. Having been ready to buy twice and having to contact the UL, I finally limited to three factories. All had good reputations, but I could not afford to go to China. With hind site, I should have paid for an agent there. It would have been much easier. This has been a very difficult process for me with a sales manager who claimed to have good English skills. I have been very thorough technically, but the sales manager's poor communication with his untrained techs seems to be at the heart of the problem + the usual greed. Things that were discussed, but were deliberately omitted from the contract have been a source of frustration. We are now arguing over excess freight fees with Brightways as the container is being inspected by customs in Vancouver. DDU means that they should be paying excess fees for shipping and haulage including fork lift delivery, but (oooppps!) they did not understand???. The sales manager has tried to be clever too many times and has been caught again and again and was finally disciplined at the beginning of 2015. However, I think that he may be a relative of the factory owner and so will continue doing international sales!

I see from your contract that you have included more details and a timeline (but without penalties for late delivery). I only missed a few things on your list. This was my first and hopefully last direct purchase, but I know that Cancam have experienced some similar problems and have to visit about twice a year for machines that they rebuild and certify in Burlington, ON. I have had the Minister for International Trade and the Chinese Embassy in Ottawa contact Sunny Sun. They did not like this and I suspect are getting pay back. The inspection was very thorough. If you PM me with your email I will send it to you. My inspection set a new company standard and will doubtless be used as an example that TTS Global will send out to potential customers. I am suggesting to Omni that they cease exporting until they sort out these communication and technical problems. If they cannot understand in several foreign languages and do not know the simplest electrical engineering or safety standards in the market to which they are exporting, then they should not export, Dave

[dmannock]

8mm steel, you may get 6mm for a lot of it. My inspection showed this by micrometer. Also, I have read that not all of the seams joining the legs and the table are welded.

[gfacer2]

For shipping - I'll try and consolidate that here in this post.

Right now I have a shipping broker arm of a customs broker working on it and a shipping broker alone. Right now it is looking like a crate (LCL) will be about $2500CAD - for close to all in but you just have to roll with it on shipping - whereas a full 20' container would be more like $4k CAD.

So I am leaning LCL. but I'll edit this post as I get more details.

I had budgeted 3,000USD so I'm in the ballpark I expected.

[gfacer2]

I'll reserve this post and the next couple for some component shots and build photos etc.

[gfacer2]

Reserved for additional build photos.

[gfacer2]

Got a PM from other purchaser of an Omni 1530 (different specs but same base machine) coming to my local area a few weeks ahead of mine. Hopefully I get a chance to see it. As the purchaser wanted to PM me, I'll leave out any names but still a pretty crazy coincidence. His build time seems to have run about 8-9 weeks - about where I thought mine would be in reality though I was hoping for a bit faster. That will put my machine in house in January sometime.

PS - I now see CNCzone doesn't seem to allow later editing - which is really unfortunate - so those build posts will have to just come in order.

[RUSTY2]

[i will get in touch with you first part of the week , being we are about 20 min away , I PM you because when I replied it did not go? [/I]

[gfacer2]

I know they are giving us the standard set of 20 bits , with me being I have two spindles it is 40. Do you have a suggestion of any bits other then the ones that come with the units . I am new to routers? thanx Brian

We use Onsrud bits - they are available from a variety of sources. I usually get them from the consumables dept of Multicam as they are close to me and seem to order from Onsrud frequently (and carrier some stock too). We've tired some ebay bits too with some success in the right uses. They are cheap but they don't leave as nice an edge finish.

G

[gfacer2]

No worries Rusty, just didn't want to post anything specific you might not have wanted. But I'm at your service if you need a hand on the unload.

Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk

[gfacer2]

Delete - duplicate post

[gfacer2]

So parts have started to arrive. I stated in my PO that I wanted pics of parts/wiring before installation so I could verify UL listings. This is mainly in case someone says we need to get it certified in Canada after importing. We want it 'close' so that it might pass a casual inspection and would not need much done to get an actual sticker of the full unit.

So far we have confirmed the servo motors and servo packs are OK (though the UL is only stamped on the servo packs), the power supply is stamped for UL too. The main switch and relay are not however and so we are working through that (as its a main element for needing UL in our opinion). Still these are minor compared to the motor/drives so I think we'll be OK.

Still waiting on UL wiring and the spindle and now the corrected relays and switch.

Anyhow, hopefully next week we pass the first hurdle of ensuring we have the right components.

I've also tried to download the product catalogs as I go so I have them on file just in case of future service needs and to confirm what I am getting.

So far so good though.

[gfacer2]

Ok so another ten days and only the VFD has been added to the approved list. Still waiting for wiring and the spindle. At this point I am a little disappointed that components are still not in for approval but such is life.

Apparently they should be in this week - or at least one of them - we'll see. So far the only issue - still not resolved but I haven't pushed it either - is the main switches/relays. At this rate looks like it will ship late in Dec (and based on Rusty2's timeline). Oh well I was dreaming of having it in December to set it up but I'm sure my family will appreciate it coming in January!

Some pics - The schneider and relay are the non UL which need replacing for the schneider I did research to confirm it was only CE listed.


Attachment 296614Attachment 296616Attachment 296618Attachment 296620Attachment 296622Attachment 296624Attachment 296628

[gfacer2]

Still waiting on Spindle/wiring/relays for pre build approval (which did not arrive on either Wednesday or 'the weekend' as I was told but I do not consider these guesses promises). Frustrating but I know it comes with the territory. On the plus side, the frame is at least underway concurrently. Some frame pics...

Attachment 297260

[RUSTY2]

At the end of Sept Jack sent me the pics of the frame as well Attachment 297280Attachment 297282 Then there was a 7 day holiday then I got the next batch of pics on the 18th of Oct. ( App two working weeks)Attachment 297284 Just to give you some type of time line , not sure if it different on your build

[gfacer2]

Ok so the spindle is in... but not 100% sure it is the right one. HSD is a little heavy on variations of models and a little light on specs and how to read details (ie tell from the sticker, what you are getting).

So the spindle spec'd and in the PI was an HSD 929 10hp with ceramic top and bottom bearings. The detailed model number was h6161h0822. The start of that seems to be pretty generic as there are lots of h6161 models. The h0822 seems to be the key. The problem is that Hsd's spec stickers that outline the performance curve are based on the motor and not the bearings so they use the same sticker for a bunch of variations. There is a little sticker above that looks like the detailed model number but it is nothing like what was spec'd and there is not information to prove this is an actual model number, much less the details of its construction and parts. As you can see the model looks to be h6161h1144 but its hard to say. There is a sticker that says ceramic (or Keramik) but so what - its just a sticker.

Attachment 297630Attachment 297632

I have sent the picture to HSD to see if they can approve it and asked Jack to 1) confirm what the ordered and 2) provide more back up and documentation re the model # or the actually spindle imported.

So right now it is not approved - which should mean it is NOT on the machine, but yet they also send a photo of it mounted. I've now told them the spindle is not approved and should not be mounted to the machine. I'm still about 75% sure the spindle is OK but as this was a 'no substitutions' part of the PO I will make triple sure it is right. The spindle I should not was chosen before the PO based on what Jack said they could get (I asked if they could get the model spec'd and he said "yes, it is confirmed".

Attachment 297634


In other news, the cabinet is started (though they still have no UL wiring in so mainly its just components. And the right switches seem to be in with UL labeling.

Attachment 297636