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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    27

    Birmingham Mills and Lathes

    Hello

    Has anyone had much experience from Birmingham mills and lathes? I have a few buddies who have them and like them, they bought them from www.innovativemachinery.net . I couldn't find them for any less on the internet anywhere and I searched hard. I haven't heard a single person complain yet but I wonder how they can get away with the cost being so low. Any insight would help I'm about to make a purchase.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2712
    smilenbseen, I seem to have upset a few folks when I gave my extremely low opinion of a new Birmingham 14 x 60 lathe so I will not repeat it. I have no experience with Birmingham mills therefore no opinion on them. As to low cost, "you get what you pay for or less." As to advice, the same is true. lol
    DZASTR

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    27

    part true

    I understand what you are saying partly. But manual machines have gotten worse over time not better. And these from what I've been told and understand are just copies of the older machines made. Some of them are exact copies. So in some instances it seems I'm getting a better machine paying less than someone paying more. So what saying goes with that. I've had a couple buddies say they were amazed by what they got for the price, I guess I'm looking more to hear if there's any bad stories because this may be the first thing that seems too good to be true and actually is.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2712
    smilenbseen, Good copies of good machines would be great. Unfortunately, there are a lot of bad copies of machines that were cheapened with inferior materials and lower quality components such as bearings etc. Worse yet are the bad copies of machines that were junk before they were copied and further cheapened. If you want a god quality machine you will pay for that quality one way or another. Personally, I'd purchase a good piece of good ol' iron and re-manufacture it. Might cost more than a cheap copy, but will be a dependable piece of equipment with more re-sale value if later sold.
    DZASTR

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    27

    disagree

    I disagree. CNC machine sure I would only go Okuma Mori, maybe Mazak or Daewoo. But manual machines are old technology, it's simple to copy and not lessen money but lessen manufacturing costs. There's no R&D in it. Why pay 20,000 for the same thing my neighbor paid 5,000 for and there is no difference in the parts we produce. Making decisions like that would put me out of business quick. I'll pay big money for technology and a strong distributor but manual machines don't have either of those to consider. Now if you try one and find it to be a bad idea, then that's what I want to know. I don't want your opinion I want your knowledge, sorry but I would prefer someone who owns them and dislikes them to let me know. I could listen to people all day tell me they don't like Ford or Chevy and have never bought one before.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2712
    smilenbseen, I didn't want to repeat my complaints but you asked. The Birmingham 14 x 60 I had experience with had "hardened ground gears". There may have been some somewhere, but the ones We had to replace were cast iron (not hardened or ground), the oil pump didn't pump, the low voltage light system burned out as soon as it was started the first time & never could be started again. The machine was delivered with a square indexing head on the compound. The hole used to locate the pin had no hardened bushing, consequently the hole in the cast iron base was worn out quickly. Whenever a turning cut was taken, the square head turned and both longitudinal & cross feed settings were lost. On this model, the cross feed & longitudinal feed are controlled by the same lever. At the end of a lengthwise cut, the cross feed would engage and plunge into the workpiece. This continually worsened and got more and more difficult to disengage. At the end, we had to use a lead hammer head to disengage the feed. The halfnut must have been made of soft brass because it was worn out to the point we couldn't thread anymore. This all occured in less than 6 months. I think a machine like this can put you out of business as well. How long do you want to make parts the same as your neighbor? Want it or not, that,s both my opinion and experience. I,m trying to help, not get you PO'd.
    DZASTR

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2712
    smilenbseen, I looked at your public profile and see there that you are from Wisconsin as I am. If you want to contact me by email I'm at [email protected] If you haven't done so already, I suggest you read Adobe Machine's thread. General Metal Working Machine forum, Vertical Mill, Lathe Project sub-forum, Manual to CNC Lathe conversion. Lots of good stuff.
    DZASTR

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    27

    not po'ed

    That's exactly what I was looking to hear. Although I must say for all the problems you had with it, it seems to be odd considering the good things I have heard about them. That sounds worse than a lemon. I will probably give it a try though the resale on them isn't that bad so even if it does get bad in 6 months I'd lose a lot less than if I bought a clausing or something with a ridiculous price on it. There's a lot of them here in Wisconsin, perhaps just in my neck of the woods and they keep buying more. I've seen them right next to bridgeports and have not heard anything like it's not as good as my bridgeport. Perhaps it's like a Haas where it's a good enough to get you by if you aren't pushing it. Your list is quite long though, so I understand why you dislike them. If I find the same thing I will definetely post it in the forum.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    161
    Most likely smilenbseen is spamming for the link he provided in his first post. I have seen his similar posts on other websites recommending the same machine supplier. It is also interesting to note that smilenbseen lives in Wisconsin; which is the same location as Innovative Machinery. Coincidence?? Hmmmmm.........

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2712
    snakebit95, I've been thru this one before on this forum. My opinion seemed to upset people who were fortunate to have no? problem with their Birmingham machines. lol There are quite a few for sale at low!!!! prices on ebay with no bids. Why? I looked up the dealer on the web trying to find out who the people were to no avail. I've been involved in capital equipment specification and purchasing for over 30 years. The best source for info is to get an operator of the machine in question one on one and find out the facts. I often think that people are looking for positive re-inforcement of their opinion or question posed. We're all guilty of that.
    DZASTR

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    27

    SNakebit

    Well since you live in Alabama I don't suppose you would know what it's like in the rust belt. There is a dealer on every corner up here, and I live in Madison, WI. I want to know of bad things about the machines, such a spammer I am. I have an older one but the one I just placed an order on is a lot more money. I was putting the website I found that had them cheapest, normally I post only in CNC forums as I do not spend a lot of time on manual stuff. I noticed someone posted I spammed somewhere else, people put links up all the time in these forums. If you find somewhere that sells them cheaper than you put them up. To make you happy here is another couple sites you can go to, www.southern-tool.com, www.americanmachinetools.com, I could care less who people buy from.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    161
    Richard,
    I know what you mean. I procure capital equipment on a regular basis too. I make it a point to conduct a run-off prior to the machine ever arriving at our facility; with pretty strict ownership/performance clauses in the P.O. Basically, if the machine does not live-up to what is advertised......it will not set foot in our facility and the machine is on the seller's shoulders!!

    smilenbseen,
    If you are not an employee or profiting from that company, you have my apologies. When I see a member going from forum to forum spamming the hobby boards, it really bothers me; especially if they are not a supporting advertiser. There are a lot of helpful people on these forums, and a lot of great knowledge. Personally, I hate having to wade through advertisements when helping people or looking for help. That is why the forum offers a classifieds section.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    27
    Apology excepted. I've gotta ask though, who will actually sell you a machine? To make a run-off and change there terms is unheard of, maybe at a large OEM like Harley. I can't imagine someone working at a large OEM is spending time out of there day posting at on-line sites, but I suppose it's gotta happen with atleast one. I guess I picture pretty much everyone on these sites to be more of a small to medium machine shop. I wonder why someone working for a large company, large enough to have a person in charge of buying equipment, would be looking at postings of Birminghams online. Just curious, I'm not a large shop by any means.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    161
    smilenbseen,
    I'm not talking about purchasing small hobby-type machines for $5K-$10K. I work on projects that well-exceed $100K at a pop. You would be amazed at the number of run-offs I have been on, and the machinery not have the ability to meet or exceed the advertised specifications. Let me pose this question to you. What if you purchased a new VMC for $125K with an open-ended P.O., and had it installed in your facility. Once installed, the VMC could not hold the tolerance on the parts you intended to manufacture on it. Who would you hold responsible? Would it be the machine manufacturer, the seller or yourself for not doing your due-diligence? Once the machine is on your shop floor, no amount of finger pointing is going to resolve the problem with an open-ended contract. I can tell you who your manager is going to hold responsible!! If **** is going to happen, I want it to happen at the manufacturer's factory or the sellers shop floor............not my shop floor!! I would not consider this changing any terms of an agreement. The agreement is made up-front before we ever issue the P.O. with intent to purchase the machine.

    As for hobby type machines, if a machine seller will not at least let me come and see the machine run..........I look else-where. There is usually a good reason why somebody will not let you look at equipment, and want you to purchase sight-unseen.

    A bit of background on myself........I am a Manufacturing Engineer (Mechanical by degree), and I do work for a large manufacturing company. However, I also spend my weekends machining parts as a weekend/evening business in my 2-car garage. I think of it as a hobby to occupy my spare time, along with an opportunity to sharpen/maintain my machining skills. There are quite a few others on this forum with similar backgrounds; thus the reason I mention the vast knowledge available on this board.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    27

    sorry

    You made it sound like you're changing terms. If a machine doesn't hold manufacturers speced tolerances for up to one year it can be returned that is the case with all the big manufacturers. But they usually can hold tolerances much better than what they state in the brochures. And seeing a machine run and watching the machine run your parts are two different things. Again for 125k no dealership is going to cut your part unless you have one of the biggest shops in the country. I have a handful of CNC and a couple manual machines all except one were bought new. I don't even look at the machines anymore it's a waste of my time, if I want a free dinner or something and am bored sure I'll go on a little trip. I pictured something else when you spoke, I've heard of rare circumstances where they change the normal terms on the invoice drastically. I guess my thoughts are kind of pre-historic in this issue but I assume that if something was so bad or messed up it would've been uncovered before I got to it, and if the name is established well it got that way for a reason. I come to the forum for the good stories to be honest. It doesn't matter if there is 5,000 Mazak Nexus 250's that guys love in there shops, there is always one that the guy can't stand. You take a risk regardless of what you purchase because that's the nature of the beast.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    161
    Most likely, you are dealing with the wrong machine supplier; or do not know how to negotiate a sale. We recently purchased a fully automated tubing cut-off saw that was only $55K, and we ran our parts on it before the machine ever left their factory. Yes, we only cut tubing to length on it.....nothing very complicated. We even looked at one in-action at a nearby facility (a few hours drive), and spoke with the operators. It was the 1st time we had ever purchased from this supplier, and may be the last considering it was a relatively specialized machine for a specific job. Everybody runs their business differently. If you prefer to deal with inadequate equipment after it hits your shop floor........that is your choice!! Once a machine is installed on your shop floor, the supplier will make all the excuses they can, point fingers at who-ever they can find, and pro-long the bandaids until either you take legal action or the warranty expires and you live with the inadequacies. During all this time, you are losing shop productivity, dealing with the man-power issues, lack of capacity, wasting valuable maintenance department hours, tying-up capital funds with no returns being recognized, dealing with frustrated customers because they do not have their promised parts......and the story goes on....and on. I have read it too many times on these forums, and I have seen it happen to other buyers / Engineers that refuse to take the necessary preventative steps upfront. It is called protecting your company's investment!! I am going to leave it at that.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2712
    Best warranty in the world: Hold back a sizable portion (50%) of the selling price and use graduated payment. The salesman will be the first one to scream because the mfg. won't pay his commission till they are paid. With all the cheap machine wannabe builders out there, the competition will be in your favor. A high quality builder will most likely agree. Otherwise lease the machine with an option to purchase. If it's a piece of junk give it back without paying them. If good, then buy it after sufficient try out.
    DZASTR

  18. #18
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    674
    Hey guys,

    The OP "smilenbseen" is a SHILL for innovativemachinery.com. He's been posting his crap all over the Practical Machinist forums.

    The fact of the matter is that Birminghams are poorly built machines and innovativemachinery.com has resorted to SPAMMING to make sales.

    To the moderators of this site: please do us all a favor and ban the OP. If you'd like links to his spamming on other forums, PM me and I will send you links.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    674
    Okay, not only is smilenbseen a shill/spammer, but he's also a liar.

    Innovative machinery sells the cheapest Birmingham 12x36 for $2250.

    A quick google search showed that American Machine Tools sells the same lathe for $2095.

    As quote by him, "I couldn't find them for any less on the internet anywhere and I searched hard."

    :drowning: :drowning: :drowning:

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    32
    Snake, I see your a drag racer from Montgomery, I've been to that track a few times (NSCA Racer) it is a nice facility. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said Smile may be spamming his product.
    Smile, I believe you ARE a Wisconsin Machine Tool Dealer as am I. In fact I am pretty sure I know who you are. These boards should be a good source of unbiased info, however that would depend on the integrity of the members / posters. Any one with an anonomous screen name can post half truths and untruths and by reading your posts in this and other forums it appears that this is your case. Do you own a shop? Do you procure equpment for your boss who owns a shop? Do you sell machine tools? All claims made by you in the past 2 months. You have taken shots at various machine tool brands. If you are to do that you should also mention that you represent a competing brand. People ask questions on these boards to gain truthful real world experiances otherwise they could just ask the salesman whose machine is best. You give salesmen a bad name. Why don't you just register with you real name and, rather than point out deficiancies in your competitors product (including mine), point out the strong point in yours.

    Thank You,
    Ken

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