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Thread: DIY Design

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  1. #21
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    Re: DIY Design

    Thanks for the feedback david - It does look a lot more rigid now. I'm working on the z-axis now but unfortunately am away at work which makes things difficult!

    I have thought about just buying a CNCRP or readymade Z axis and bolting it on to my machine. What are your thoughts on this route Vs designing my own? I'd be looking at two hgr20 rails on the carriage, with the blocks on the z-plate. with a ballscrew between them. I'm just not sure I can make it as tidy as the CNCRP one. Can a smaller diameter ballscrew be used due to the short length?

    You say thicker aluminium is the way to go, what thickness would you recommend for each of those plates? especially the one that bolts to the bearing blocks and the gantry riser? Aluminium is my preference because I can cut it on my shapeoko3 at home, and don't need to get it done at a machine shop.

    Thanks again

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuarttaylor00 View Post
    Thanks for the feedback david - It does look a lot more rigid now. I'm working on the z-axis now but unfortunately am away at work which makes things difficult!

    I have thought about just buying a CNCRP or readymade Z axis and bolting it on to my machine. What are your thoughts on this route Vs designing my own? I'd be looking at two hgr20 rails on the carriage, with the blocks on the z-plate. with a ballscrew between them. I'm just not sure I can make it as tidy as the CNCRP one. Can a smaller diameter ballscrew be used due to the short length?

    You say thicker aluminium is the way to go, what thickness would you recommend for each of those plates? especially the one that bolts to the bearing blocks and the gantry riser? Aluminium is my preference because I can cut it on my shapeoko3 at home, and don't need to get it done at a machine shop.

    Thanks again
    I used 12mm plates in a similar arrangement, but I used two spaced apart by solid aluminium bar. My profiles are 9090 heavy type, twice as thick as standard so you may not need to make it so substantial. See images. I can literally ride this thing while it's cutting and it has no effect on the cut. Yes I tried.

  3. #23
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    Re: DIY Design

    I have thought about just buying a CNCRP or readymade Z axis and bolting it on to my machine. What are your thoughts on this route Vs designing my own? I'd be looking at two hgr20 rails on the carriage, with the blocks on the z-plate. with a ballscrew between them. I'm just not sure I can make it as tidy as the CNCRP one. Can a smaller diameter ballscrew be used due to the short length?
    You can build a far superior Z axis for a lot less money than the $600 for theirs. And if you bought theirs, it would be the weakest part of the machine.

    A Z axis with linear rails is about as simple as it gets. Basically all you need is two 3/4" aluminum plates.
    $150 for the rails:
    Aliexpress.com : Buy 100% New Original HIWIN Linear Guide HGR20 L300mm Rail + 2pcsHGH20CA Narrow Carriages for CNC Router from Reliable carriage link suppliers on BST AUTOMATION | Alibaba Group

    $80 for the ballscrew:
    Aliexpress.com : Buy Free Shipping 1605 Ball screw RM1605 L 300mm Ballscrew + SFU1605 Ballnut + BK12 BF12 + 1605 Ball nut Housing + Coupler from Reliable coupler cable suppliers on BST AUTOMATION | Alibaba Group

    If the screw doesn't fit, you can either remove some material from the center of the two plates, or add some bar stock under the rails to increase clearance.
    Depending on where the nut mounts, you can probably get away without using the bottom ballscrew bearing, which simplifies things quite a bit.
    Gerry

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  4. #24
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    Re: DIY Design

    Quote Originally Posted by justindewoody View Post
    I forgot to mention the size of my linear rails/bearings. I used the HGR25 rail with the HGH25 bearings. I did not want to use the wide flanged bearings (HGW25), but you can use them with the same HGR25 rail. I found a killer deal on Ebay for the rails/bearings. There's a guy on there who acquired a big lot of rails/bearings from a business closing down...or something like that. They are all brand spankin' new. I got (2) 711mm rails, (2) 530mm rails, (2) 1308mm rails, and (12) bearings blocks...for $779...delivered. That's even better than buying from China. In fact, this is the very best deal I could find anywhere. This guy is in Canada and his Ebay user name is kbautomationsupply.
    At the current exchange rate, it's definitely the best deal around. Wow how did I miss that one.

  5. #25
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    Re: DIY Design

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon.N.CNC View Post
    I used 12mm plates in a similar arrangement, but I used two spaced apart by solid aluminium bar. My profiles are 9090 heavy type, twice as thick as standard so you may not need to make it so substantial. See images. I can literally ride this thing while it's cutting and it has no effect on the cut. Yes I tried.
    Thanks for that, I was thinking around 12mm would be right, if I struggle with flex I can always beef it up\ make a new one.

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    You can build a far superior Z axis for a lot less money than the $600 for theirs. And if you bought theirs, it would be the weakest part of the machine.

    A Z axis with linear rails is about as simple as it gets. Basically all you need is two 3/4" aluminum plates.
    $150 for the rails:
    Aliexpress.com : Buy 100% New Original HIWIN Linear Guide HGR20 L300mm Rail + 2pcsHGH20CA Narrow Carriages for CNC Router from Reliable carriage link suppliers on BST AUTOMATION | Alibaba Group

    $80 for the ballscrew:
    Aliexpress.com : Buy Free Shipping 1605 Ball screw RM1605 L 300mm Ballscrew + SFU1605 Ballnut + BK12 BF12 + 1605 Ball nut Housing + Coupler from Reliable coupler cable suppliers on BST AUTOMATION | Alibaba Group

    If the screw doesn't fit, you can either remove some material from the center of the two plates, or add some bar stock under the rails to increase clearance.
    Depending on where the nut mounts, you can probably get away without using the bottom ballscrew bearing, which simplifies things quite a bit.
    Excellent info, thankyou! I think I'll go with this option.

    A few questions:
    - 3/4" aluminium plate on both plates?
    - If 3/4" is to be used, do I need any bracing on either of the plates to stop flex, or should it be OK?
    - Is there any reason to have the bottom bearing on the Z ballscrew? i.e would it make a noticeable difference leaving it off?
    - just to confirm on the bearing block mounting on the carriage: wider mounting is better on X axis, taller is better on Z axis?

    Thanks for the input gents

  6. #26
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    Re: DIY Design

    Start reading this thread starting at this post (#129)
    Lots of good info:
    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-cn...ml#post1859452
    Gerry

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    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  7. #27
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    Re: DIY Design

    Cheers, I did read that a month or so ago but it means a lot more to me now I'll give it another read from start to finish.

  8. #28
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    Re: DIY Design

    Post #129 and later are new posts, and answer the questions you asked.

    AS far as the bottom bearing on the screw.
    The $150,000 routers I use at work don't use a bearing on the bottom. As long as you mount the nut as low as possible, the nut provides all the support you need.
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  9. #29
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    Re: DIY Design

    Rereading your design specs, I wouldn't recommend the HFS 160x80 for a gantry of this length. That extrusion is very similar to the 3060 in this analysis:
    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attach...2&d=1389340112
    They are close to the same outside dims and weight per foot, so should perform similarly.
    Misumi makes a much better extrusion for a long gantry: the GFS8 100200 -- you can see it is 2.5x stiffer. I'm sure it's more $, but in the overall budget it would probably be the best money spent.

    I was curious about the plate thicknesses, so did a little FEA. I already had the 3060 model, so added something similar to your end design. The plates are 3/8" thick. Everything is aluminum. The 100 lb cutter load is 7.75" from bottom of gantry, directed like in the Hardwoods post.
    Attachment 315078

    Attachment 315080

    Stiffness is 11k lb/in, which is on track for a total machine stiffness-at-the-cutter (accounting for the flex of all components) of about 2k lb/in, which is not very good. Fair for wood. Ideally we want about 20k lb/in for cutting aluminum.

    You can see the gantry tube is the weak link here. The plates are flexing a little, but 80% of the deflection is due to the HFS 160x80. There's not much point in thick plates, without going to a bigger tube.
    David Malicky

  10. #30
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    Re: DIY Design

    Yeah ok, that's a really great pickup - thankyou for taking the time to check it out. The GFS-8 100-200 is only about $200 more than the 80160, which is a cost I'm more then willing to take if it means more rigidity. The 100-200 looks far stiffer then the 80160 does, just looking at the profile.

    Would replacing the original extrusion in my design to 100200 result in me getting anywhere near 20k lb/in? Or would I be looking at moving to a steel gantry to achieve that? Is there any type of bracing I could apply to the beam itself to increase the stiffness?
    I'd still like to try and go with aluminium, but if it's going to cause me bigger problems down the track I could change it all and go with steel.

    I'm happy enough with the cost - for all the extrusion for this 1500x1000mm router i'm looking at US$1100 including shipping to Australia- That's with the 100200 extrusion.


    Out of interest, what software do you use to do that FEA? I am no engineer but am quite interested in this and would love to be able to have a play with it. I should have access to Solidworks and Catia in the not too distant future, but I'm not sure if they have these features. *edit* - looks like solidworks premium has assembly FEA simulation, excellent!

  11. #31
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    Re: DIY Design

    Good to hear you have the budget. You probably also know that Misumi offers pre-machining of the rail mounting surfaces -- that's highly recommended, unless you have access to equipment to do that yourself. As the gantry gets stiffer, the rails will have more tendency bind unless the mounting surfaces are very flat.

    I modified my old GFS8 100200 model so it had 7.75" Z height from tool tip to gantry bottom, like your machine. For rigid endplates (i.e., just accounting for the contribution of the GFS), the deflection is 0.00315", for a stiffness of 32k lb/in. With very stiff Y and Z cars, spindle mount, uprights, and lower frame, I'm guessing that overall machine could hit 10k lb/in which is quite good (compared to most DIY routers). 20k lb/in is best for heavy cuts in alum; 10k should allow moderate cuts which is a lot better than the very light cuts of a typical router.

    For more stiffness, the easiest way is to decrease the Z height, like Gerry suggested earlier, either by design or plywood spacers on the table. If we reduce the Z height by 2" (to 5.75"), Deflection = 0.00263", Stiffness 38k lb/in.

    The next easiest alternative is to reinforce the 100200 extrusion, like you suggested. I tried some options in FEA:
    - Mount/epoxy a 100x200x6mm standard alum tube to the back of the GFS8 100200: Deflection = 0.00185", Stiffness 54k lb/in.
    - Same tube but wall thickness is 10mm: Deflection = 0.00151", Stiffness 66k lb/in.
    So the GFS8 100200 can be improved a lot, if you find it's not stiff enough as is. You could add that tube before or after its built. It's not the most elegant or inexpensive solution, but it's reasonable and a pretty stiff way to stay with T-slot.

    Going to a standard 8"x8" alum or steel tube gives much higher stiffness, but a whole different manufacturing process, much more work, and it doesn't sound like your cutting needs call for it.

    That software is Creo Parametric/Simulate -- it is very capable but not easy to use. Solidworks is much easier and its FEA is also very good -- I am currently switching to it. Right, SW Premium is the one with good FEA. The entry level SW has a 'starter' FEA which has many limitations (but still good for some purposes). But the hard part about FEA is using it properly: it's very easy to make wildly unrealistic models, giving meaningless results. All FEA models are idealized to some degree, including the ones I've shown (e.g., perfect joints) but they should be reasonably close for good design decisions.
    David Malicky

  12. #32
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    Re: DIY Design

    Quote Originally Posted by dmalicky View Post
    Good to hear you have the budget. You probably also know that Misumi offers pre-machining of the rail mounting surfaces -- that's highly recommended, unless you have access to equipment to do that yourself. As the gantry gets stiffer, the rails will have more tendency bind unless the mounting surfaces are very flat.

    I modified my old GFS8 100200 model so it had 7.75" Z height from tool tip to gantry bottom, like your machine. For rigid endplates (i.e., just accounting for the contribution of the GFS), the deflection is 0.00315", for a stiffness of 32k lb/in. With very stiff Y and Z cars, spindle mount, uprights, and lower frame, I'm guessing that overall machine could hit 10k lb/in which is quite good (compared to most DIY routers). 20k lb/in is best for heavy cuts in alum; 10k should allow moderate cuts which is a lot better than the very light cuts of a typical router.

    For more stiffness, the easiest way is to decrease the Z height, like Gerry suggested earlier, either by design or plywood spacers on the table. If we reduce the Z height by 2" (to 5.75"), Deflection = 0.00263", Stiffness 38k lb/in.

    The next easiest alternative is to reinforce the 100200 extrusion, like you suggested. I tried some options in FEA:
    - Mount/epoxy a 100x200x6mm standard alum tube to the back of the GFS8 100200: Deflection = 0.00185", Stiffness 54k lb/in.
    - Same tube but wall thickness is 10mm: Deflection = 0.00151", Stiffness 66k lb/in.
    So the GFS8 100200 can be improved a lot, if you find it's not stiff enough as is. You could add that tube before or after its built. It's not the most elegant or inexpensive solution, but it's reasonable and a pretty stiff way to stay with T-slot.

    Going to a standard 8"x8" alum or steel tube gives much higher stiffness, but a whole different manufacturing process, much more work, and it doesn't sound like your cutting needs call for it.

    That software is Creo Parametric/Simulate -- it is very capable but not easy to use. Solidworks is much easier and its FEA is also very good -- I am currently switching to it. Right, SW Premium is the one with good FEA. The entry level SW has a 'starter' FEA which has many limitations (but still good for some purposes). But the hard part about FEA is using it properly: it's very easy to make wildly unrealistic models, giving meaningless results. All FEA models are idealized to some degree, including the ones I've shown (e.g., perfect joints) but they should be reasonably close for good design decisions.

    Ah that's really helpful, thankyou.

    Misumi do offer machining of surfaces but I cannot find the option for it on this size extrusion - I can find it on others but the option isn't there for this particular size. I can probably find someone to skim it for me without having to spend a fortune.

    I'm at work but have been working on the design a bit. After increasing the size of the gantry to 100x200, I also increased the gantry risers to GFS-100x100 to match. Then I looked at the X-axis beams, and changed them to GFS-100x100, and the 4x supports between the beams to HFS-50x100.
    This has really beefed up the design, but now I'm looking at around US$1700 posted, up from $1000 posted before the size increase.
    The x-axis beams are only 1000mm long, the supports are 1320 long. Is there a need to increase their size to 100x100 & 50x100? Looking at cost vs. benefit...
    They don't need to be the same series as the gantry or risers as they do not interface with each other.


    I have a bit of a plan for my Z height - I will build it with 5.5" of Z height, with the tool able to retract above the bottom of the gantry. If I need to mill a thicker item, it will almost definitely be wood. In which case I can move the gantry riser extrusion upwards on the Y plates, losing rigidity but gaining height. I'm not sure how much this will effect stiffness\rigidity but If it's wood then I'm sure it will be OK. The thicker GFS-100x100 extrusions will help with this.

    I think I will leave reinforcing the gantry for now, and see what results I get. I think with the lower gantry height and the bigger extrusions, I should be sitting in a pretty good spot. I just need to tidy up the stepper\ballscrew mounting plates and the Z-axis, then I will post a few updated renders.

    I've been using Fusion360 for all my designing, it turns out it has FEA simulation too (under the 'simulation' tab, who would have thought?!) But I will still move over to Solidworks once I have access, It seems a bit more powerful than Fusion, and is used a bit more widely in the industry.

    I've had a quote of $500US for 50KG of 6061-T6 12mm plate(far more than I'll need for the router, but it will be used) Including shipping to Australia - so I can machine them on my Shapeoko, and once I have my designs done I have a manufacturer in my home town, and one in China, who I will get quotes from to make the plates up and maybe anodize. Once I've got the quotes I'll decide which way to go.

    I'm not far off ordering my ballscrews, linear rails, and spindle. I'm not sure if I should hold fire on the electronics until I have built the frame to see how much weight I need to move, or if I can safely assume that 4x 387oz Nema 24 steppers running off a G540 will suffice. any thoughts on that one? The step up to Nema 34's is a pretty pricey one, and I would like to try and keep it cheaper with the G540 kit (this kit http://www.homanndesigns.com/index.p...products_id=67 ).
    Just read this from one of the CNCRP guys:

    Should I choose Nema 23 or Nema 34 motors to cut aluminum/oak/etc

    While the motors that drive a system are important components, they are not the determining factors in what materials can be cut -- this is far more a function of the mechanical stiffness of the machine doing the cutting, as well as proper speeds, feeds and tooling for the material you wish to cut. Motors serve to accelerate and decelerate components of the machine (such as the gantry or z axis), as well as to push the cutting bit through material. As such, you may want larger motors in order to take deeper passes through material, to improve cutting times, or to drive larger format machines with heavier gantries or cutting tools.

    The limiting factor for cutting different materials is typically chatter or machine deflection. These can be solved with machine mass, added bracing and structural components, proper cutting tools, shallower cutting depth, or most likely a combination of all of these. With a sufficiently rigid machine, either of our motor systems can cut aluminum or even steel.




    I can rapid 1000ipm+ and cut at whatever speed I want with nema23s and a G540. I can easily out pace the bits desired speeds in wood and other materials. That's what I do not get when it comes to nema34 on his machine or a Joes? He pairs the selections of the G540, motors, and PS so well I have never had a cutting operation where I wished for a larger motor.

    The rigidness of you machine, its base, and the fact that it is 8020 is really the limiting factors in these builds.


    Last question - I have been planning to use a 2.2kw chinese spindle + VFD. Looking at the amount I have beefed this up, would a 3kw spindle be realistic on this machine? or is 2.2kw plenty for this size? I have read around a little and it seems to be whatever the builder wants to put on it, any thoughts on what I should go for here?

  13. #33
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    Re: DIY Design

    6061 plate should be readily available locally, why are you buying it from overseas?
    7xCNC.com - CNC info for the minilathe (7x10, 7x12, 7x14, 7x16)

  14. #34
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    Re: DIY Design

    For the risers, I'm pretty sure you could use their standard HFS 100x100, with very minimal loss in stiffness compared to GFS. The GFS is for the gantry itself since it flexes the most by far. For the main table perimeter, HFS 100x100 or go back to 80x80. From my prior models, the main rails take much less torque and can use pretty small cross-sections. I will try to run some FEA on your config to verify.

    Yes, adjustable Z is a good method, if you don't mind realigning. I'd say design for 6.5" -- that seems to cover vast majority of use. 8" if necessary like you said.

    Yes, for your machine's purposes, I'd wait to reinforce the gantry.

    Fusion360 is pretty good from what I've heard, but I've not tried it. Solidworks has much more market share, and much higher price. Autodesk is trying to play catchup.

    I would avoid T6 plate if possible -- it has higher internal stresses, and can warp after machining (or before). T651 is stress-relieved and less likely to warp. Best is cast Mic-6 tooling plate -- it is ground flat and stays that way (~stress-free), but it's softer for screws, and can be gummy to machine.

    I would wait on electronics and motors -- there is no rush, they would just sit, and there is more to learn.

    The kit looks ok, but spendy. The stepper specs are good but I don't know if they are high quality and worth that $. The main issue is the power supply doesn't have enough amps for those 4 motors. Gecko's formula is 2/3 of (sum of amps), as a minimum. http://www.geckodrive.com/support/st...ly-basics.html
    Your machine seems well suited to higher torque Nema 23/24. The G540 is great, but maybe not enough amps for max accel... depends on your screw lead. I'd also consider Leadshine digital stepper drives -- they are fabulous, and not too expensive.

    I'm not a chinese spindle expert, but your class machine seems in line with the 2.2kw to me.
    David Malicky

  15. #35
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    Re: DIY Design

    Generally, for a given task, a larger spindle will tend to last longer than a smaller spindle. Mainly because they will often have larger bearings, that can handle higher loads, and because they are not working as hard.
    Gerry

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    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  16. #36
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    Re: DIY Design

    OK, I'm home from work with 3 weeks off, should be able to get my design pretty well sorted and hopefully a few parts ordered.

    I can get 5083 aluminium quite easily locally, is it a decent option for my plates? I have read it is quite strong, but can be gummy to machine.. anything else is getting pretty tough to find locally and I'll have to go onilne.

    I've attached a quote for my rails and ballscrews, I was considering going for a (pricey) Ground Ballscrew on the Y axis, but its looking like the total cost of this is already sitting around AUD$4500. I will go for the cheaper ballscrews for now, and If i expand to 48x96 then I will get better ballscrews.


    I've also attached a quick look at electronics. I'm not sure what your thoughts are on those? seems to be about the same price between G540 and the leadshine stuff, but there is a lot more room for expansion on the leadshine. and if I blow up a driver I only replace the driver, not the whole board. As you said, this aspect can wait a while. The power supply is 12.5A. I can probably haggle a bit to get the 4th stepper for less. Again - Just trying to get a feel for what I'll need as I don't have a lot of experience in this



    This is where I got to with the gantry plate design. I'm pretty happy with it. I'll try and finish it off and see what your thoughts are.


    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails ebay electronics.jpg  

  17. #37
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    Re: DIY Design

    You want 2010 ballscrews, not 2005's.
    You'll get much better performance with the 2010's.

    I'd go with DM or EM series drives, and maybe a small Nema 34 with a higher current rating. Like a Leadshine 86HS35.

    Also look for AM882 drives on Ebay, which can be had for a lot less money from China. They're similar to EM806's.
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
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  18. #38
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    Re: DIY Design

    I would say, if you choose 10mm lead ballscrews, you may not want to bother with the SmoothStepper, unless you must have a USB interface, or you must use a ridiculous microstep setting... I've been recommending EdingCNC's products, as I've had better performance and easier setup compared to SmoothStepper. While the cost may seem higher, the controller software (GUI) is included, and far better than Mach3.

  19. #39
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    Re: DIY Design

    Thanks Gerry,
    Ah damn, you did say 2010's originally too, I've messaged the sellers to rectify the quotes.

    Those leadshine steppers and drives look good, Looking at around AU$200 /US$150 per axis (Drive+stepper). What is to be gained by going with a smaller NEMA34 rather than a larger 23/24?

    I have no requirement for USB or ethernet, I can run the parallel cable. I had read that smoothsteppers made a big difference in smoothness\performance... obviously still a bit for me to learn about that stuff.

    I will give EdingCNC a look, I haven't heard of them before. I already have a Mach3 license, but will definitely take a look if you've had good results.

  20. #40
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    Re: DIY Design

    What is to be gained by going with a smaller NEMA34 rather than a larger 23/24?
    More power at higher rpm's. But you need better drives and more current.
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

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