[Psychomedic]

I am a small shop luthier. Have sold some but I am also a hobbyist. I am primarily making acoustic guitars but also make electrics (guitars and basses). Originally, I was wanting to invest in a CNC router to carve necks but the more I learned, the more I understood how much a CNC could help me in the shop with smaller parts.

My budget is pretty small, about $2000 for the CNC, so I am leaning toward a Zenbot 2448 with a Hitachi m12vc. I have a Dewalt 611 but Shaun from Zenbot thought the Hitachi would be a better fit for what I intend to do.

I have never used CAD/CAM software before. Would it be advisable to jump right in with Aspire? Or is there a more newbie-friendly program on which I could learn, render guitar necks/parts, import existing plans from the web, and use to carve on the CNC?

I know I have a lot to learn. Any advice you can give would be appreciated.

Clif

[ger21]

I personally would not recommend Aspire if your main goal is guitar necks.
Aspire is not a true 3d CAD program. It's designed for relief modeling. It doesn't have the precision modeling tools that "real" CAD programs have.
I would start with Autodesks Fusion 360, which you can get for free.

Newbie friendly does not apply to someone with zero 3D CAD experience. And a guitar neck is not the easiest thing to model.
There will be a long learning curve.

[Psychomedic]

Newbie friendly does not apply to someone with zero 3D CAD experience. And a guitar neck is not the easiest thing to model.
There will be a long learning curve.

I was afraid you would say that. However, I am very interested in CNC in general so I'll give it my best shot. I have just started looking at Fusion last night.

Thanks a lot for the reply.

[C*H*U*D]

I would also go with Fusion 360 if I were you. Not only do you get free CAD/CAM but also the ability to do the renders you mentioned.

Learning curve can be an issue, but if you have the skills and patience to be a luthier, you should have only minor issues learning Fusion. There are a ton of videos to learn from, as well as an online community eager to help.

Good luck in your adventures!

[Louis_Cannell]

Another vote for Fusion360 I am totally new to CAD and CNC and got familiar enough with it to design and cut a few parts in a weekend, now I just keep finding easier newer ways to do things and I am imperessed with packages simplicity. Designed my CNC router in just a couple of hours utilising stock I had available great for spotting problems you may otherwise not forsee.

[Psychomedic]

Thanks all!! I will jump on Fusion 360 this weekend while I continue to research machines.

[InMesh]

Yes would agree that the neck thing will have you pulling your hair out or not it depends ,on the other hand bridges ,inlay ,fret board radius ect all great fun and faster than by hand .I was going in feet first and now just tipping the toes in slowly .Here is my Idea now I can cnc some fantastic hand routing jigs and the likes and streamline the process ,routing the electric body would be faster in some ways but then I have seen a template used quicker than the cnc so there are a lot of trade off's but all good fun and that's why I am here .

[louieatienza]

I don't think Aspire would suit you for necks. The big deal now for CAD/CAM is Fusion360. I haven't used it yet, but the price is right, and the modeling looks pretty easy enough. If you purchase CAD/CAM capable of modeling necks it would cost more than your CNC budget.

One consideration if you do intend to machine necks is how you intend to do them. You can do them easily on the flat if you build up the neck heel afterwards. Otherwise you'd need about 4" for the stock, another 1/8" or so for rapids plane, and the tool needs to be at least 4" flute length. Add a fixture, and extra clearance for comfort and you'll find there are not many machines with 9-10" of Z travel. On the flat, machining the sides of the neck, you probably could get away with 7-8", depending on headstock design. If you build necks using laminations, then it's easy to profile cut the parts and glue them together, but then you'll face the challenge of machining that part afterwards, unless you intend to shape it manually (and I do that a lot.)

[Psychomedic]

I don't think Aspire would suit you for necks. The big deal now for CAD/CAM is Fusion360. I haven't used it yet, but the price is right, and the modeling looks pretty easy enough. If you purchase CAD/CAM capable of modeling necks it would cost more than your CNC budget.

One consideration if you do intend to machine necks is how you intend to do them. You can do them easily on the flat if you build up the neck heel afterwards. Otherwise you'd need about 4" for the stock, another 1/8" or so for rapids plane, and the tool needs to be at least 4" flute length. Add a fixture, and extra clearance for comfort and you'll find there are not many machines with 9-10" of Z travel. On the flat, machining the sides of the neck, you probably could get away with 7-8", depending on headstock design. If you build necks using laminations, then it's easy to profile cut the parts and glue them together, but then you'll face the challenge of machining that part afterwards, unless you intend to shape it manually (and I do that a lot.)

All good points. I started to Fusion360 tutorials last night. Man, do I have a long way to go.

I was hoping to need no more than 7 or 8" of Z travel. I talked to Shaun at zenbot. He said that the Z travel could be altered to meet my needs. 4" of clearance should be plenty for the heel and headstock but when you add the 4" flute length...I'll be sure to carefully work this out before ordering.

Thanks!

[louieatienza]

All good points. I started to Fusion360 tutorials last night. Man, do I have a long way to go.

I was hoping to need no more than 7 or 8" of Z travel. I talked to Shaun at zenbot. He said that the Z travel could be altered to meet my needs. 4" of clearance should be plenty for the heel and headstock but when you add the 4" flute length...I'll be sure to carefully work this out before ordering.

Thanks!

4" is the flute length, but there is the flute fadeout, that you cannot have inside your collet. So the actual stick-out could be another 1/2"-3/4" depending on the bit. Which is why I'd recommend making the heel in two pieces; just design your model with holes for dowels in the heel, the slice the heel and machine the parts separately. The dowels will line up the parts well, as well as reinforce that area, probably better than solid wood without dowels.

If you build laminations, then there's no way around it. Jim Olson is probably the most prominent individual guitar maker using CNC, and he uses it for necks. Luckily for him, he has a Fadal with about 18-20" of Z clearance and ATC. For us mere mortals, it may be easier to machine from the side.

[InMesh]

My idea of machining the guitar neck would be glue the heal block on the flat board and then run the cnc around that the deepest body/heal then for me would be 4 inches,the tooling well ball nose cutters there is a 7 inch available .

[louieatienza]

My idea of machining the guitar neck would be glue the heal block on the flat board and then run the cnc around that the deepest body/heal then for me would be 4 inches,the tooling well ball nose cutters there is a 7 inch available .

That's great... if you have about 15" of overall Z travel. If you mill the neck shaft and heel separately, say two 2" thick pieces, you'd only need a tool with 4" flute and about 5-6" of overall Z travel. And it's a sturdier setup. McPherson, PRS, Olson - they have up to 20" of Z travel, but they're using VMCs. And making solid aluminum fixtures with vacuum hold-down. We won't have this rigidity and spindle HP with our machines, and going slow on wood is not an option, unless you like the burned look!

[ger21]

These necks are cut from one piece on a XZero Raptor, which I believe has 6" of gantry clearance.
raptor

I think they are cut in the 300+ ipm range.

[Psychomedic]

There's bound to be a way. I appreciate all the thought you guys are putting into this. Here's a new wrinkle: I told my wife I was going to spend about $2k on a CNC set up. She said, "Just go get what you want." After some clarification, I am now looking at the CNC Shark hd3 Slimline made by Next Wave Automation. Looks like it will meet my needs for about $4k. I can get it locally through Woodcraft. They have one set up there and offer classes for it. Still researching.

[ger21]

There are far better machines than a Shark available, if you can assemble a kit and do some wiring.
Most Shark users that buy them for serious work end up replacing them. I think you'll be disappointed with it.

The shark uses a lot of plastic parts, and unsupported rails which will flex a LOT.

[louieatienza]

These necks are cut from one piece on a XZero Raptor, which I believe has 6" of gantry clearance.
raptor

I think they are cut in the 300+ ipm range.

That looks pretty good.... but regardless how much gantry clearance you still need more Z travel. I'd say however XZERO would be on my list to check out.

[Psychomedic]

The Raptor has 8" of Z travel. The Shark has 7".

[ger21]

The Raptor is 10x more machine than a Shark.

There's a huge performance difference among the available machines in this size. Generally, the ready to run machines that are comparable in price to the kit machines will perform far worse.

[Psychomedic]

The Raptor is 10x more machine than a Shark.

There's a huge performance difference among the available machines in this size. Generally, the ready to run machines that are comparable in price to the kit machines will perform far worse.

From the best that I can tell, a Raptor of comparable size to the Shark Ultraslim HD3 would cost me about $1000 more. It helps that the Shark comes with Vcarve and Cut 3D software and a Bosch 1617 router and mount. I will continue to search for a package that would be easy to set up and use but also accurate enough to meet my needs. Thanks, ger21

[ger21]

You get what you pay for.
Spending $1000 more now will save you from spending $4000 more when you upgrade it later.

And you're not getting V Carve and Cut3D for free. You're getting a machine that's worth about $1000 less than what you're paying for.