584,808 active members*
5,243 visitors online*
Register for free
Login
Page 3 of 6 12345
Results 41 to 60 of 107
  1. #41
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    215
    Good analogy with the meat mincer.... yes if you were working on it and changing the blades... you would unplug it (3-pole isolator), I'll try to remember that analogy

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    7

    Re: PCB Autoleveler Plugin for UCCNC

    Very good point! Luckily, the spindle controller comes with a simple switch so I can turn off the mains supply easily.

    Cheers, Per

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    1

    Re: PCB Autoleveler Plugin for UCCNC

    Hi Cahit,

    I just want to thank you for the great work and give you some feedback. I had some issues with FlatCam files, because these where not loaded into the plugin. The problem is fixed with version 1.00.20. I just tested with my tool length sensor so far, but it worked fine. So it's time to place an order for a 3d probe ( or to build one on my own).

    Steve

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1899

    Re: PCB Autoleveler Plugin for UCCNC

    Quote Originally Posted by pertakman View Post
    Very good point! Luckily, the spindle controller comes with a simple switch so I can turn off the mains supply easily.

    Cheers, Per
    Yes, well, switching off the VFD every time I change tool or set offsets is not a good idea. To stop and restart the VFD takes a pretty long time.

    BTW, what do you mean by spindle controller? The spindle controller is the VFD. Powering off the BOB or preventing sending on/off signals in any other way is not enough safety.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    27

    Re: PCB Autoleveler Plugin for UCCNC

    Attachment 334862

    I added a switch to my VFD for safety purpose. he breaks the PWM signal. actually he switches to the potentiometer.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1899

    Re: PCB Autoleveler Plugin for UCCNC

    Quote Originally Posted by cahit View Post
    Attachment 334862

    I added a switch to my VFD for safety purpose. he breaks the PWM signal. actually he switches to the potentiometer.
    Sorry, but I don't think this is a good solution. Yes, it prevents the spindle from spinning, but ONLY if the switch and VFD is working. The problem is that if the VFD flips out it can start the spindle even if the PWM pulses are blocked or the 0-10V is at 0V. The only 100% safe option is to interrupt the 3 phases going to the motor. This can be done through a relay or a manual switch. Everything else is dependent on some sort of electronics and firmware/software and that is not regarded as safe enough.

    Attachment 334864

    The above is a compilation of part of two pages from my manual, and I thought about this even before I read the relevant parts of the manual. Now, even if you say you make no mistakes (blue framed part) the red framed text is still a risk even with your switch. Of course, I have no idea how often that happens, but never the less, it can happen unless you have taken some conventional safety measures, i.e. a mechanical switch or a relay/contactor which is TOTALLY independent of any electronics and firmware and which isolates the motor from the VFD whenever necessary, which is every time I have my hands near the spindle for tool changing or any other activity, like fixing the work piece or removing the items I have just finished. I know that not everyone thinks the way I do, and many would call it over-cautiousness, but I don't mind.

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1145

    Re: PCB Autoleveler Plugin for UCCNC

    That is interesting BUT normally it is NOT a good idea to open teh circuit between the drive and MOTOR on an energized VFD . My vfd recomends you NOT do that as drive damages can occur. You would normally OPEN teh incoming power circuit to teh controller AND IF you needed absolute safety you would crowbar teh motor circuits to ground ( short all teh leads together and to ground) AFTER you remove power. Yo use a Break then Make type control function .

    (;-) TP

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1899

    Re: PCB Autoleveler Plugin for UCCNC

    Quote Originally Posted by vmax549 View Post
    That is interesting BUT normally it is NOT a good idea to open teh circuit between the drive and MOTOR on an energized VFD . My vfd recomends you NOT do that as drive damages can occur. You would normally OPEN teh incoming power circuit to teh controller AND IF you needed absolute safety you would crowbar teh motor circuits to ground ( short all teh leads together and to ground) AFTER you remove power. Yo use a Break then Make type control function .

    (;-) TP
    TP, you are wrong. The engineer in me says that if the motor is stopped then the VFD should output 0V, 0A and 0Hz, and if you disconnect the motor in that situation then NOTHING bad can happen with the VFD or the motor. That warning is meant as a warning for using such switch for on/off control. Now THAT is certainly VERY wrong. The switch is a SAFETY switch, not an emergency stop or on/off control switch.

    Damages may happen if the VFD is energizing the motor and you break the current flow, otherwise not. Of course, I can not guarantee the functions of every VFD, but I doubt there is a risk unless the motor is spinning and you break the current flow. As a matter of fact, I even test run my VFD without motor for my Modbus tests. No reason for rotating the motor if it does nothing. So far I have not seen any problems caused by this, and I doubt I ever will.

    In fact, I seriously doubt that there is ONE single professional mill used in industry (at least not by a serious user in Europe) which does not have this kind of safety, because it is obvious that as long as you have the VFD powered up ANYTHING can happen with the spindle, so having your hands under the spindle and in the area of operation is extremely risky unless you make it 100% sure that the spindle can not start rotating. This is valid not only for CNC machines but also for every other machine with motors. It is very normal safety procedure, which can be solved in different ways, one is to power off the VFD, another is my way, a third is to use spindle lock or other mechanical ways of preventing the motor to rotate unintentionally. Of course, I know that there are plenty people running around and not care a lot about safety, but I also know that there are plenty people without one or two fingers (or even worse) as well... I am not one of those yet, and definitely have no intentions of becoming one of those.

    But... to each his own. I just commented about the risks for unintentional rotation causing damage or injury and how I prevent that from happening.

    Edit:

    I just opened the manual of the HY, and here is what it says regarding this:

    Attachment 334930

    Quote Originally Posted by HY manual, page 5 in one of mine
    Do not install any switch component like air circuit breaker or contactor at the output of the inverter. If any of such components must be installed because of the requirements of process and others, it must be ensured that the inverter has no output when the switch acts.
    Which is just as I said, a warning about not to use such switch as on/off, the VFD must have been commanded to stop the motor rotation PRIOR to operating that switch.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    41

    Re: PCB Autoleveler Plugin for UCCNC

    It is silly to read a recommendation of Vmaxxxx about Vfd... triying to guess what to say.

    CAHIT you can for shure programm your VFD to accept EXTERNAL COMMANDS for START STOP from your input terminals on your VFD.
    Normally all this VFDs have optoisolated inputs.

    You can close circuit between START and Gnd and STOP and GND signal each with a relay of your BOB (or to either GND or +24V or +5V) depending of the VFD brand. This one I am attaching as example will have commons to ground, as you can see on the picture.

    If you use the NO contact of your relay as START signal, then you have 100% security it will never GO ON without a REAL software command.
    Attachment 335002

    As an Engineer with more than 35 years experience, I agree completely with A_Camera if you disconnect a VFD at 0V in the Analog input, you expect nothing wrong will happend because it can not damage the IGBt power output stage (at 0V they go into disabled mode) BUT ! it is not recommended to go this way because you can not guarantee the VFD is receiving all the time 0 V and in this case it will not be 100% disabled.
    (Except you programm an output signal of running state, and read it... etc etc.... but all this will complicate too much your goal !)

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    41

    Re: PCB Autoleveler Plugin for UCCNC

    A_CAMERA

    in the prof. business you have always circuit braker contactors operated by charge between the motor and VFD (as you pointed out) ALLWAYS !. They will isolate the motors in case of over charges but will also work with protection devices in parallel.
    This extra security layer will also fire the contactors , commanded from "security relays" like the ones from Telemecanique, Shneider, Phoenix Contact
    or whatever. This is the SICK security relay prod. line, they will handle all inputs from Emergency switches, etc and isolate motor terminals from power circuits.
    This is a NORM, in Europe as in many other countries.
    https://www.sick.com/us/en/product-p...lays/c/g186153
    this kind of devices will respond very fast ( 10 ms) .

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1145

    Re: PCB Autoleveler Plugin for UCCNC

    HIYA Panic still at it are you .

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1899

    Re: PCB Autoleveler Plugin for UCCNC

    Quote Originally Posted by dontpanic View Post
    A_CAMERA

    in the prof. business you have always circuit braker contactors operated by charge between the motor and VFD (as you pointed out) ALLWAYS !. They will isolate the motors in case of over charges but will also work with protection devices in parallel.
    This extra security layer will also fire the contactors , commanded from "security relays" like the ones from Telemecanique, Shneider, Phoenix Contact
    or whatever. This is the SICK security relay prod. line, they will handle all inputs from Emergency switches, etc and isolate motor terminals from power circuits.
    This is a NORM, in Europe as in many other countries.
    https://www.sick.com/us/en/product-p...lays/c/g186153
    this kind of devices will respond very fast ( 10 ms) .
    Yes, I know that. In any case, I have NEVER seen a real industrial machine without a safety switch/circuit breaker/contactor or some other device making it 100% safe to work on the machine. I admit, I have not seen every machine on this earth, but have seen quite a few during my adult life. This is valid for EVERY machine, be that a mill, a meat grinder, elevator or whatever else you can think of. By that, it is not said that there are no pitfalls, but there is always some sort of safety involved without additional electronics/firmware/software. Can also be a pure mechanical lock, locking the motor shaft and preventing it from turning, but yes, the most common is contactors, which is OK for industry, and which I was thinking about as well, but decided not to use that solution, because I don't need the additional benefits. For me it is very convenient to flip that switch, it is placed just beside my machine in a comfortable height just where I would stand if I needed to change tool, so I will not forget flipping it.

    There seems to be strong belief in that having a switch between the motor and VFD can damage the VFD. I don't know who started to spread this crap, but I suspect it is based on some misunderstanding of the cheap Chinese VFD manual with those thin, badly written manuals read by people who don't even manage to read the few pages so they just read the main head lines or the first sentences and quote those as reference. But... safety is not high on the priority list of many DIY machinists, so people take risks, some times without even knowing about them. This is especially true when it comes to electrical installations. Very few have actually any formal electrical education on this forum, most of the time it is pretty clear who has and has not. Anyway, reading a warning is one thing, understanding why is another.

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1899

    Re: PCB Autoleveler Plugin for UCCNC

    Quote Originally Posted by cahit View Post
    Attachment 334862

    I added a switch to my VFD for safety purpose. he breaks the PWM signal. actually he switches to the potentiometer.
    I was thinking about your solution again...

    I made a quick drawing. Is your switch according to Option 1? If yes, replace it with Option 2. Option 1 leaves the input floating, which is NOT a good idea, especially if you are concerned about safety. Only Option 2 assures that the input is at 0V when the switch is activated.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	HY safety connection.jpg 
Views:	0 
Size:	42.9 KB 
ID:	335062

    ...but please note, this still assumes that the VFD is working 100% reliably all the time.

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1145

    Re: PCB Autoleveler Plugin for UCCNC

    MY VFDs are NOT cheap chinese units and they ALL warn against it as a preventative measure (;-) AND even your cheap VFD manual warns against it.

    I think you guys are confusing a safety measure to work on teh drive unit with interrupting teh ouput line of the vfd. TO work on the unit you would lockout tag out teh Power to teh VFD itself then do what you need to do then unlock and untag teh unit and return it to service.

    THAT was NOT the original discussion that A_Camera started, his concern was teh safety of the operator handling an idle spindle at 0rpm. DO YOU see any of that type protective scheme to protect teh operator on a commercial CNC machine ???? NO you do not. You will see limited operator of the spindle (reduced RPM limits) and some will not allow the spindle to run IF you open the door BUT are they opening teh link between teh Drive and the motor ???? NOT in most cases.

    IF you think that you need a protective device between teh VFD and teh motor DO YOU also add that protective device between teh Servo drives and teh servo Motors ??? (;-)

    (;-) TP

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1899

    Re: PCB Autoleveler Plugin for UCCNC

    Quote Originally Posted by vmax549 View Post
    MY VFDs are NOT cheap chinese units and they ALL warn against it as a preventative measure (;-) AND even your cheap VFD manual warns against it.
    So, WHICH one is your VFD? Could you share the manual, or at least the model name? You have several, so list some of yours please, and tell us WHY they warn against it.

    Quote Originally Posted by vmax549 View Post
    I think you guys are confusing a safety measure to work on teh drive unit with interrupting teh ouput line of the vfd. TO work on the unit you would lockout tag out teh Power to teh VFD itself then do what you need to do then unlock and untag teh unit and return it to service.


    THAT was NOT the original discussion that A_Camera started, his concern was teh safety of the operator handling an idle spindle at 0rpm. DO YOU see any of that type protective scheme to protect teh operator on a commercial CNC machine ???? NO you do not. You will see limited operator of the spindle (reduced RPM limits) and some will not allow the spindle to run IF you open the door BUT are they opening teh link between teh Drive and the motor ???? NOT in most cases.

    IF you think that you need a protective device between teh VFD and teh motor DO YOU also add that protective device between teh Servo drives and teh servo Motors ??? (;-)

    (;-) TP
    Sorry, I think the one who seems confused here is actually you. But the main thing is that if you put a switch between the VFD and the motor NOTHING bad can happen to your VFD as long as you don't use that switch to control the on/off the motor. Please tell us which VFD are you using. So far you sounded you had the HY and controlled it via Modbus... when you received a direct question you said you don't control it via Modbus. Now, when we discuss the HY manual, which I thought you quoted and which we discussed all the time (apart my own Rexroth) you suddenly say that you don't use that one at all, so which one are you using?

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1145

    Re: PCB Autoleveler Plugin for UCCNC

    I have never said I used/owned a HY vfd (;-) and I never plan to as well. I also have never said I talked to one over modbus. You may want to reread teh forum posts for clarity. IF you find where i did please share that with me.

    (;-) TP

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1899

    Re: PCB Autoleveler Plugin for UCCNC

    Quote Originally Posted by vmax549 View Post
    I have never said I used/owned a HY vfd (;-) and I never plan to as well. I also have never said I talked to one over modbus. You may want to reread teh forum posts for clarity. IF you find where i did please share that with me.

    (;-) TP
    Why not answer the questions and clear the confusions instead of adding to them?

    Which VFDs you actually have? You have given the impression in quite a few posts that you actually have the HY, but no, you never really said that you have. You have also given the impression that you actually control the HY VFD via Modbus, which is why I asked Dan to contact you about it. I have already apologized for that mistake, so I am not going to do that again, but you could be a bit more specific when you type, it would be quite beneficial for the conversation to know what you ACTUALLY know and have, not just quoting bits and pieces from manuals, but also where that information comes from.

    By saying, like you said even yesterday, this...

    Quote Originally Posted by vmax549 View Post
    I do not have one of THOSE vfd here...
    ...you actually say "I don't have the HY VFD here, I have it somewhere else." ...or how should we interpret that? So yes, please speak clearly, say which VDDs you have. I am pretty sure that the information is relevant in this discussion and it would be appreciated by others as well.

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1145

    Re: PCB Autoleveler Plugin for UCCNC

    HIYA A_Camera SHOW me where I said this
    "..you actually say "I don't have the HY VFD here, I have it somewhere else." .

    WHY do you keep trying to put words in OTHER peoples mouths ???

    I think the main problem here is English is not your first language and there is some loss of meaning in your translation.

    I have been working in this field(NC,CNC,motion control) since teh fall of 1969 SO I might at least have a basic understanding of the subject. VFD brands GEES I would bet IF it was every available on this continent then I have probably used it at one point in time.

    DO I speak engineer speak ?? NOPE . I use good old American redneck speak .

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    27

    Re: PCB Autoleveler Plugin for UCCNC

    new pcb created with UCCNC v1.2026 and the autoleveler

    CNC milling PCB funny!!! - YouTube

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1899

    Re: PCB Autoleveler Plugin for UCCNC

    Quote Originally Posted by vmax549 View Post
    HIYA A_Camera SHOW me where I said this
    "..you actually say "I don't have the HY VFD here, I have it somewhere else." .

    WHY do you keep trying to put words in OTHER peoples mouths ???

    I think the main problem here is English is not your first language and there is some loss of meaning in your translation.

    I have been working in this field(NC,CNC,motion control) since teh fall of 1969 SO I might at least have a basic understanding of the subject. VFD brands GEES I would bet IF it was every available on this continent then I have probably used it at one point in time.

    DO I speak engineer speak ?? NOPE . I use good old American redneck speak .
    Please read that post once again...

    You keep saying "I don't have this and that HERE"...

    By using the word "here" you actually say not here, but have it somewhere else. Say "I don't have this VFD" that is a clear sentence. I am sure even in redneck country that's how it was taught even in 1969, and even before that.

    I am not putting words in anybodies mouth, you are. I am just point out that that your redneck English can cause confusion and you actually confuse people to believe that you have and know things you don't. No, don't blame on my English, blame it on yours. Also don't blame it on redneck speak... that's pretty lame... you are only representing one single individual, not a whole community or state, not even the educational system in that state you live in.

    So you are in your seventies, well, so what? I am in my sixties, but who cares? It really doesn't make much difference. Somebody fresh out of school can be more knowledgeable than you and I are together, especially in subjects we don't have any formal education in and very little knowledge about. Age does NOT give knowledge, age is just a number of years added, nothing else. Life experience? Sure, but not automatically everything of that is valuable if applied according to today's standards. Things which were regarded as acceptable safety measures in 1969 are no longer enough, a control panel or user interface made and used in the 60's, 70's may be replicated today, but no longer accepted as a good design because in the 60's HMI design was not something people cared about. Engineers created things and more or less forced people to adjust themselves to those things or interfaces. Now we think differently, now HMI design is a science, we look at how people actually are functioning, as well as many other parameters, like safety. We no longer design out of a perspective of "blame the stupid if they use a machine and make mistakes losing a finger". Now we standardize and look at "what if somebody makes a mistake, how can we prevent him/her getting hurt" instead. Standards are created so that if I buy or build a machine and say I follow this and that safety standard, then the person I am talking to understands the safety level, or can look that up.

    Here is an example from a manual of a VFD I don't have but is very good to exemplify safety measures and different safety standards:

    Attachment 336480

    Here is the next one, from the same manual:

    Attachment 336482

    Can you see the major differences?

    Here is the third example from the same manual:

    Attachment 336484

    All three are safe to certain levels, but guess which one is providing 100% warranty against accidental, unanticipated rotation causing damage or injury during tool change or other operation where that can cause problems?

    Now, if you don't have a cheap Chinese VFD, yet your manuals of ALL the VFD you have or have had in your almost 50 years of NC, CNC and motion control experience warns against having a contactor or switch according to the second example, it would of great interest for the community to know which ones are those and why they warn against common sense safety measures and established standards. You can have the age advantage, I don't care about that, but if you claim I am wrong, please put up some evidence, otherwise your words weight like feather, no matter what kind of English you speak and that my crappy English is not native redneck, like yours.

    So, again, which VFDs are you using and have knowledge about? No, you don't have to be my librarian, I can find the manual if you don't want to help the community, but it would sure be helpful if you would list all of them, those you REALLY have, and those which warn against safety.

Page 3 of 6 12345

Similar Threads

  1. UCcnc CAM
    By vmax549 in forum UCCNC Control Software
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 09-16-2016, 04:19 PM
  2. FED UP with UCCNC
    By jcarpenter2 in forum UCCNC Control Software
    Replies: 55
    Last Post: 03-10-2016, 11:24 PM
  3. UCCNC & UC300
    By camivic in forum UCCNC Control Software
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 10-27-2015, 08:45 PM
  4. UCCNC Wizards (;-)
    By vmax549 in forum UCCNC Control Software
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 09-20-2015, 02:35 AM
  5. Has anyone really used UCCNC?
    By greggv in forum UCCNC Control Software
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-16-2015, 10:45 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •