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IndustryArena Forum > Community Club House > General Off Topic Discussions > CnC use cutting/carving Marble need some advice/help
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  1. #1
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    CnC use cutting/carving Marble need some advice/help

    Hey G'day folks,

    Just wondering if anyone can give some pointers on carving Marble?

    I have recently built and restored some music boxes and have come across a lovely marble box which I would like to convert to a music box.

    Now I can cut/carve metal/wood with my cnc but I have no idea about marble.

    Anyone care to throw a bone to an old grumpy person and let me know the type of bit I should buy and is it possible at all to do relief work with marble at all?
    What type of speed feed is appropriate?

    Cheers and avagreatday from the colonies downunder,
    Steve

  2. #2
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    Re: CnC use cutting/carving Marble need some advice/help

    Diamond tools are generally used for stone. There are various types, from carbide tools with a coating of diamond film, to shapes covered with plated-on diamond particles, to PCD diamond tools composed partly of metal with diamond edges applied, to sintered tools made from metal and diamond particles melted together into a mold. Which will work best for your project is difficult to say at this point, and the speeds and feeds vary according to the type of tool used and what you're using it for.

    Are you going to be doing this wet or dry? Wet works better, for both the tools and the stone. But your machine will need protection from the abrasive slurry produced - bellows protectors for all sliding surfaces. You can cut soft stones like marble dry, but dealing with the dust will be a formidable challenge. If you're serious about doing this, I'd suggest setting up a machine especially for stone work, and keeping it well away from all the other machinery you've got.
    Andrew Werby
    Website

  3. #3
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    Re: CnC use cutting/carving Marble need some advice/help

    Quote Originally Posted by awerby View Post
    Diamond tools are generally used for stone. There are various types, from carbide tools with a coating of diamond film, to shapes covered with plated-on diamond particles, to PCD diamond tools composed partly of metal with diamond edges applied, to sintered tools made from metal and diamond particles melted together into a mold. Which will work best for your project is difficult to say at this point, and the speeds and feeds vary according to the type of tool used and what you're using it for.

    Are you going to be doing this wet or dry? Wet works better, for both the tools and the stone. But your machine will need protection from the abrasive slurry produced - bellows protectors for all sliding surfaces. You can cut soft stones like marble dry, but dealing with the dust will be a formidable challenge. If you're serious about doing this, I'd suggest setting up a machine especially for stone work, and keeping it well away from all the other machinery you've got.
    Andrew G'day,

    Thank you for taking the time to answer and reply,

    My CnC is in a well ventilated area so dust is not an issue but I do have a nozzle that can spray water as well I have a large work area 8 x 4 and can make a smaller containment area for Marble. At this stage whether or not I do this more often is yet to be decided by running at least one job and overcoming obstacles as they arise, I am trying by gathering information before hand to minimise the heart ache so to speak.

    I am happy to work wet, and having had a look at various YouTube videos most 99% of what I have seen is working wet. The tools you speak off is there a supplier that you could perhaps recommend? so I can ask further about speeds and feeds?
    The type of work I would like to do is as per pic - I would like to try my hand at marble to see how finely detailed and smooth I could get the job done.

    Cheers and ty..
    Steve

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	StGeorge small.jpg 
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  4. #4
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    Re: CnC use cutting/carving Marble need some advice/help

    Nice job on St. George!

    Okay, here's an example of the sintered tooling: Stone carving tools - Diamond CNC routerbits

    These are brazed PCD: Harvey Tool - Carbide PCD Diamond End Mills - Ball

    These are diamond-coated: Diamond Coated End Mills - End Mills - Cutting Tools | Nachi America

    This is an example of the plated-on diamond grit type: Diamond Grit Alloy Steel End Mill Coated with Electroplated Diamonds, Down-Cut for Composites -ToolsToday.com- Electroplated Diamond Coated End Mill

    Which of these are really going to work best with your machine, stone and process I'm not sure. I also don't know which of these companies will ship to the "colonies downunder". But if you try any of these alternatives, please let us know how it goes, okay? My guess is that most of them will work for the carving; getting the stone smoothed out and polished afterwards will be the hard part. But they might get you close enough for an acid wash to take it the rest of the way.
    Andrew Werby
    Website

  5. #5
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    Re: CnC use cutting/carving Marble need some advice/help

    Hey Andrew G'day,

    Thank you muchly, St George is my patron saint. That was carved out of some rescued Mellee root which was in the fire burning away.

    Awesome information with thanks again, I will have a look at those tools its enough to get me going for what I need. Acid wash is something I would never have thought about..

    Gentleman cheers and I will let you know how it goes once I get it together.

    Cheers and avagreatday.
    Steve

  6. #6
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    Re: CnC use cutting/carving Marble need some advice/help

    curiosity...

    before you buy a bit for 2-300 dollar, I would suggest you make some try..

    Engraving bits / Diamond cnc cutting tool milling cutter for Marble, View router bits for stone, TEYIRUI Product Details from Guangzhou Kedio CNC Equipment Co., Ltd. on Alibaba.com

    carving a relief of a harder stone, can be very slow..

    but you can make tests..
    at big box stores you can buy some marble tile
    buy a 4-5 different angle bit.. then make your experiment

    these bits are 25 each approximately
    breaking one is a loss, breaking one from Harvey tool that ten times more loss..

    but you can find videos to seeing what depth you can achieve..

    Engraving bits / Diamond cnc cutting tool milling cutter for Marble, View router bits for stone, TEYIRUI Product Details from Guangzhou Kedio CNC Equipment Co., Ltd. on Alibaba.com


    1 pc Free shipping 60 degree 6 MM PCD Bit CNC Diamond Engraving Bit Router Bit for stone and wood cnc router -in Milling Cutter from Industry & Business on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group

    on other hand
    you might get only a mm in one pass...
    pending of tooldiameter..

    you can start with a 120 or 90 deg bit, then for details 45 deg bit..

  7. #7
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    Re: CnC use cutting/carving Marble need some advice/help

    Hey G'day,

    Thank you for the advise links gratefully received and recorded

    Regards,
    steve

  8. #8
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    Re: CnC use cutting/carving Marble need some advice/help

    Unfortunately those V-shaped engraving bits won't be of much use for the sculptural reliefs Steve was talking about. For putting lines or lettering in stone, they'd be a good choice, but for creating smooth 3D contours he needs a bit that's round on the end, not pointed.
    Andrew Werby
    Website

  9. #9
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    Re: CnC use cutting/carving Marble need some advice/help

    Quote Originally Posted by awerby View Post
    Unfortunately those V-shaped engraving bits won't be of much use for the sculptural reliefs Steve was talking about. For putting lines or lettering in stone, they'd be a good choice, but for creating smooth 3D contours he needs a bit that's round on the end, not pointed.
    Hey G'day,

    Yes I would need ball nose and by the look of it there would not be any roughing as such it would be a final cut from start to finish.

    Cheers,
    Steve

  10. #10
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    Re: CnC use cutting/carving Marble need some advice/help

    You could do that, I suppose, but it wouldn't work too well. The bits you use to get the final details aren't so good at removing material in bulk. If you decide to do everything with a 1mm cutter that you could do with a 12mm cutter, you should expect to spend a lot more time doing it. Cutting lengths generally track shaft size. The effective plunge distance of most 1mm cutters is about 2mm; and you'd be pushing it to use the whole depth at once. But with a 12mm cutter, you can easily ramp into a 6mm cut.

    Believe me; roughing works - you should try it. In large stone projects a diamond circular saw blade is used to make parallel cuts quickly that vary in Z to follow the surface of the model. The resulting fragile fins can be broken away with a hammer, and the roughing cut with a large-diameter ballnose bit goes next. "Wasting" the material in this way and working from coarse to fine is a lot more efficient than tackling the whole job with your smallest tool.
    Andrew Werby
    Website

  11. #11
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    Re: CnC use cutting/carving Marble need some advice/help

    Quote Originally Posted by awerby View Post
    You could do that, I suppose, but it wouldn't work too well. The bits you use to get the final details aren't so good at removing material in bulk. If you decide to do everything with a 1mm cutter that you could do with a 12mm cutter, you should expect to spend a lot more time doing it. Cutting lengths generally track shaft size. The effective plunge distance of most 1mm cutters is about 2mm; and you'd be pushing it to use the whole depth at once. But with a 12mm cutter, you can easily ramp into a 6mm cut.

    Believe me; roughing works - you should try it. In large stone projects a diamond circular saw blade is used to make parallel cuts quickly that vary in Z to follow the surface of the model. The resulting fragile fins can be broken away with a hammer, and the roughing cut with a large-diameter ballnose bit goes next. "Wasting" the material in this way and working from coarse to fine is a lot more efficient than tackling the whole job with your smallest tool.
    Hey Andrew g'day

    Thank you for the info, I was only assuming that with stone there would be more chipping occurring but it seems not to be the case. I normally rough first then do final pass with any wood projects that I do - unless the thickness I am doing is under 10mm then all I do is a final pass without roughing to save time.

    I just assumed it seems incorrectly that stone/marble would fall apart.

    It will be an interesting exercise for me.

    You seem to have experience working with stone so I defer to your better judgement.

    Cheers and thanks,
    Steve

  12. #12
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    Re: CnC use cutting/carving Marble need some advice/help

    before we enter an endless discussing

    for wood, and for metal, can be used very well those ballendmills..
    for stone is not useful due to tool rigidity issues..

    for a surface , what can be said smooth you wont make large stepovers.. indeed about 0.1-0.2 mm

    within 0.1 mm stepover doesn't matter flat or ball end
    also the tipsize of those bits are 0.2-0.4 mm


    you wont cut deep tiny gaps in stone with bllendmill.. that would keep forever..

    there are hundreds of videos showing tapered bits used, what doesn't breaks of within carving the stone

    I just pulled up the first couple of video.. possible hundred more can be find, all shows tapered bits..

    again within 0.1 mm stepover doesn't matter flat or raidus.. you can not see different..
    the picture you showing is not stone..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUXvIpCDFHo

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PHmyROtJPY

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAWqrW3Fr0U

    for limestone, soapstone a simple carbide also works..
    don't see no reason experimenting 300-500 dollars bits, unless Andrew can financing it...

    ================================================== ================================

    my concern is, why need to put people on a several hundreds dollar course what visible ending on waisted money?

  13. #13
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    Re: CnC use cutting/carving Marble need some advice/help

    victor g'dat,

    Thank you for your input,

    Firstly I know the picture I showed is not stone, like I said it is Mallee Root .. Secondly, a flat end mill and a ball nose there is quite a bit of difference in finish, thats been my experience at least.

    I would love for Andrew to finance some bits for me but he gave me as I asked, some links for places that I could inform and educate myself further as to the type of tools that I need.

    I have seen many YouTube videos of stone being carved but as you know unless there is some instruction as to whats going on they are pretty much useless.

    I am looking at doing some Bas Reliefs like St George in Stone and I am pretty sure even though I have never carved in stone before that I could get the same finish without using a ball nose.

    Thanks for the links to the videos its much appreciated.



    Regards,
    Steve

  14. #14
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    Re: CnC use cutting/carving Marble need some advice/help

    steve


    where I offered flat endmill?

    all picture shows tapered bit.. engraving bit

    since their tip is 0.2 mm you cant see if it were flat or radius

    I believe you misinterpreted I wrote..

    those bits made for bas relief

    you can ""cut"" wood, metal and plastic
    working with stone you don't ""cut"" as metal or wood

    stone require different tool, lot stronger tool than metal or wood..

    with a ballendmill you might use only a couple of percent of the ball diameter..
    means those bits Andrew try to push, you could make a couple of 100th of millimeter depth passes..

    for a 2 mm ball looks very little.. you might never finish it..

  15. #15
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    Re: CnC use cutting/carving Marble need some advice/help

    Hey G'day,

    .2 mm sounds more like for carving letters and doing lines. I don't understand how it would be useful for doing bas relief. eg St George.. That took about 2.5 hours with a 2.5mm ball nose.
    With a .2mm tip doing St George would be 25 hours ?

    So what type of bit are you suggesting I should look at for doing Bas Relief?

    If you have a link I would greatly appreciate it so I can do more research.

    Thank you,,

    Steve

  16. #16
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    Re: CnC use cutting/carving Marble need some advice/help

    I'm not "pushing" any particular toolbits, and I'm certainly not financing any. But in the Chinese videos Victor posted, the first one was doing lettering, while the second one was doing contoured carving with a round-nose bit like the ones I pointed out, not one of Victor's pointed engraving bits. While the parameters of the cutting process weren't disclosed, it seemed that it was cutting deeper than .01mm at a time.

    Without discussing the details of the actual project Steve's proposing to do, I can't recommend a particular toolbit, but in general, roughing with something between 8 and 12 mm and doing a finish pass with a tool between 3 and 6mm would seem about right for a smallish relief in stone about 25mm thick or so. Using a tool with a .2mm tip would mean that it would take a very long time to complete. The reason one uses a ball-end tool is that the overlapping passes of the round end create a fairly smooth surface, with only the positive "cusps" to remove. Doing the same toolpath with a pointed tool would create a striated surface with deep lines incised in it that would be difficult to smooth out. Doing it with a flat-end tool would create a series of "stair-step" edges that would also take considerable work to blend away.

    Victor is correct in saying that very soft stones can be cut with regular carbide tools. But marble is harder and more abrasive than limestone or soapstone (although there's considerable variation in different limestones as well as marbles), and would wear out the edge of a carbide tool fairly quickly, which is why I advised using diamond in some form. High-quality diamond tools do tend to be more expensive, but the better grades of them will last a lot longer when cutting stone than carbide alone.
    Andrew Werby
    Website

  17. #17
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    Re: CnC use cutting/carving Marble need some advice/help

    Andrew hey G'day,

    Well what your saying makes sense to me as this is the way I carve most of my timbers as well. Predominantly I work with wood unless I am doing something that requires copper or aluminium for my project steam engines, Stirling engines and the like.

    So the process would be the same - roughing then finishing pass, the only thing I need to work out is of course the speeds and feeds for the material. Most of the wood I am working with are 25/35mm thickness but the actual reliefs rarely exceed 12mm.

    I must say I am rather disappointed in your unwillingness to finance the tools :P.... <whistle>

    I know the Asian market for tools is much cheaper but until I know the type of bits I need to use they can be giving them away for nothing - they would be no use to me.

    Being an expert at trolling youtube for all sorts of instructions, the Asian machines that are often shown carving stone or whatever medium very rarely have any instruction at all. So the trick is to find someone using xyor z model (pardon the pun) that is English speaking and prepared to talk about what they are doing watching the video itself is pretty pointless apart from knowing it can be done.

    They don't tell you the type of tool being used though you can do a guesstimate, they don't tell you the life of the tool after the job and so on.

    Its akin to eBay - some bits are advertised as being able to do wood metal plastics aluminium copper brass etc etc... you think whow ok thats cheap ... you buy a few and find out yup its cheap alright. Not a quarter of the way into the job your changing the bit.

    Andrew thanks for the quality of the information you have supplied so far, its pretty fantastic.. I am armed I think now with the appropriate information for me to be able to ask a better quality set of questions when approaching these vendors.

    Regards and avagreatday,

    Steve

  18. #18
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    Re: CnC use cutting/carving Marble need some advice/help

    Andrew

    I don't know this man, but I guessing he has a homebuilt machine, or purchased one..
    a router can not take a lot force..

    the stepover even within roughing wont be large.. possible 0.2 mightbe 0.3 mm

    the bits I posted they are polycristall diamond..
    way harder than carbide..

    due to their geometry their tip is stronger than a ballendmill..

    and picture explain what I was meaning on when I said, the geometry, ball end or a flat engraving will be same..

    0.2 mm diameter of a 3.2 mm dia ball very close to flat, that's why an engraving bit with a 0.2 mm tip can be said ""same""

    also, since he hasn't practice of this, my way betting a marble tile from a lowes and getting a 35 dollar bit probably viable versus, buying a 500 dollar bit..
    in case snapping, is same effort a 25-30 dollar buit and 500 dollar bit..


    also don't looking possible that one company makes better polycristall than another.. the technology that applied just not to making something on the backyard..
    im not really believe that a company with a good name can use ""better"" or harder diamond.. simply, because that's not exist..

  19. #19
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    Re: CnC use cutting/carving Marble need some advice/help

    The pointed tip of an engraving tool is not stronger than the rounded one of a ball endmill. I'm not sure what Victor learned in geometry class, but all things being equal, it's harder to chip a piece off a sphere than from a triangular prism. If you look closely at the illustration he posted, you'll see that the tracks of the ball overlap, leaving the surface basically smooth, while those of the pointed tool don't, leaving a surface composed of ridges and valleys which take a lot of labor to remove. If you make the step-overs much smaller, the surface gets smoother, but the time a toolpath like that takes to run is much greater. The price of a PCD tool is higher, it's true - typically one will cost 10 times the price of an equivalent carbide tool. But it will last 100 times as long when cutting abrasive materials (unless you break it - so start off feeding slower than the specifications allow.)

    Saying that all polycrystaline diamond tools are the same is nonsense. Yes, diamond is diamond, but like anything else a PCD tool can be made well or poorly. The diamond needs to be adhered to a metal substrate; that can be done accurately or not. Poorly made diamond tools can be out of spec, out of round, and the adhesion between the diamond and the metal can fail due to stresses that occur in the cooling process. If you don't believe it, build some yourself and see how well that works. If you do that, be sure to read this article to learn how to avoid premature failure: http://www.academia.edu/7989080/Effe...l_stress-state
    Andrew Werby
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  20. #20
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    Re: CnC use cutting/carving Marble need some advice/help

    curiosity,

    have you cut any sample?
    I went in the store and got some marble pieces.. for 5 dollar they have a box of six, 3x6 inches and half in thick.. pieces

    I used a simple carbide bit.. possible for a short time even hss would work..

    the generally known marble not so hard stone.. if you read books, in the medieval they used simple steel tools to carving marble..
    the samples I got in the store, a simple file working with..

    this sample I made took 20 some min... 2 in dia and 1/4 deep

    I just waiting on some marble chunks, and bits coming from china.. I ordered a 70 and a 40 deg bit..

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